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Old 09-02-2010, 06:57 PM   #1
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Sarah Palin Is Batshit Insane

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Even as Sarah Palin’s public voice grows louder, she has become increasingly secretive, walling herself off from old friends and associates, and attempting to enforce silence from those around her. Following the former Alaska governor’s road show, the author delves into the surreal new world Palin now inhabits—a place of fear, anger, and illusion, which has swallowed up the engaging, small-town hockey mom and her family—and the sadness she has left in her wake.

Backstage in the arena, a little girl in Mary Janes pushes her brother in a baby carriage, stopping a few yards shy of a heavy, 100-foot-long black curtain. The curtain splits the arena in two, shielding the children from an audience of 4,000 people clapping their hands in time to “The Battle Hymn of the Republic.” The music accompanies a video “Salute to Military Heroes” that plays above the stage where, in a few moments, the children’s mother will appear.

When the girl, Piper Palin, turns around, she sees her parents thronged by admirers, and the crowd rolling toward her and the baby, her brother Trig, born with Down syndrome in 2008. Sarah Palin and her husband, Todd, bend down and give a moment to the children; a woman, perhaps a nanny, whisks the boy away; and Todd hands Sarah her speech and walks her to the stage. He pokes the air with one finger. She mimes the gesture, whips around, strides on four-inch heels to stage center, and turns it on.

d how. Palin and the crowd might as well be one. She’s glad to be here with the people of Independence, Missouri, “where so many of you proudly cling to your guns and your religion”—the first laughline in a 40-minute stump speech that alludes to many of the perceived insults she and her audience have suffered together, and that transforms their resentments into badges of honor. Palin waves her scribbled-on palm to the crowd, proclaiming that she’s using “the poor man’s teleprompter.” Of the Obama administration, she says, “They talk down to us. Especially here in the heartland. Oh, man. They think that, if we were just smart enough, we’d be able to understand their policies. And I so want to tell ’em, and I do tell ’em, Oh, we’re plenty smart, oh yeah—we know what’s goin’ on. And we don’t like what’s goin’ on. And we’re not gonna let them tell us to sit down and shut up.”

The crowd’s ample applause at these lines swells to something vastly bigger when Palin vows defiantly that “come November, we’re taking our country back!” The phrase plays on the name of this event, “Winning America Back,” which has been billed as a Tea Party rally organized by a grassroots Missouri political-action committee that no one had heard of until a few months ago, when the event was announced.

Behind the curtain, Piper plays with other children, oblivious to the speech. She runs in circles, plays hide-and-seek, poses for snapshots, and generally acts as if she were in another world—until she gets the signal to do her job: march to the podium, pick up Palin’s speech, and allow Palin to make a public display of maternal affection.

On cue, Piper parts the curtain. As the child appears, a loud and doting “Awww” melts through the crowd.

Sarah Palin’s connection with her audience is complete. People who admire her believe she is just like them, and this conviction seems to satisfy their curiosity about the objective facts of her life. Those whose curiosity has not been satisfied have their work cut out for them. Palin has been a national figure for barely two years—John McCain selected her as his running mate in August 2008. Her on-the-record statements about herself amount to a litany of untruths and half-truths. With few exceptions—mostly Palin antagonists in journalism and politics whose beefs with her have long been out in the open—virtually no one who knows Palin well is willing to talk about her on the record, whether because they are loyal and want to protect her (a small and shrinking number), or because they expect her prominence to grow and intend to keep their options open, or because they fear she will exact revenge, as she has been known to do. It is an astonishing phenomenon. Colleagues and acquaintances by the hundreds went on the record to reveal what they knew, for good or ill, about prospective national candidates as diverse as Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Al Gore, and Barack Obama. When it comes to Palin, people button their lips and slink away.

She manages to be at once a closed book and a constant noisemaker. Her press spokesperson, Pam Pryor, barely speaks to the press, and Palin shrewdly cultivates a real and rhetorical antagonism toward what she calls “the lamestream media.” The Palin machine is supported by organizations that do much of their business under the cover of pseudonyms and shell companies. In accordance with the terms of a reported $1 million annual contract with Fox News, Palin regularly delivers canned commentary on that network. But in the year since she abruptly resigned the governorship of Alaska, in order to market herself full-time—earning an estimated $13 million in the process—she has submitted to authentic, unpaid interviews with only a handful of journalists, none of whom have posed notably challenging questions. She keeps tight control of her pronouncements, speaking only in settings of her own choosing, with audiences of her own selection, and with reporters kept at bay. (Despite many requests, neither Palin nor her current staff would comment for this article.) She injects herself into the news almost every day, but on a strictly one-way basis, through a steady stream of messages on Twitter and Facebook. The press plays along. Palin is the only politician whose tweets are regularly reported as news by TV networks. She is the only one who has been able to significantly change the course of debate on a major national issue (health-care reform) with a single Facebook posting (in which she accused the Obama administration, falsely, of wanting to set up a “death panel”).

Palin makes speeches before large audiences at least a few times a week, on a grueling schedule that has taken her to as many as four locations in three states in one day. She’s choosy, restricting herself to Tea Party gatherings; fund-raisers for charities and Republican organizations and candidates; and moneymakers for herself, mainly business conventions and “Get Motivated!” seminars. Judging from the bootleg videos that sometimes turn up, her basic speech varies little from venue to venue. She presents herself as the straight-shooting, plainspoken, salt-of-the-earth advocate for “hardworking, patriotic, liberty-loving Americans” and as the anti-Obama, the lone Republican standing up to a federal government gone “out of control.” Last July, the quarterly filing by Palin’s political-action committee, SarahPAC, revealed a formidable war chest and hefty investments in fund-raising and direct mail, the clearest signs yet that she may indeed run for president. Republican leaders privately dismiss her as too unpredictable and too undisciplined to run a serious campaign. But on she flies, carpet-bombing the 24-hour news cycle: now announcing her desire to meet with her “political heroine” Margaret Thatcher (the better to look like Ronald Reagan, presumably, though Palin seemed unaware that Thatcher is suffering from dementia); now yelping in theatrical complaint (“I want my straws! I want ’em bent!”), to shrug off revelations that her speaking contract demands deluxe hotel rooms, first-class air travel, and bottles of water with bendable straws; now responding (in a statement read on the Today show) to reports of her daughter Bristol’s re-engagement to Levi Johnston; and all the while issuing scores of political endorsements and preparing a fall media blitz. A TV show, Sarah Palin’s Alaska, for which Palin is being paid $2 million, will have its premiere on the TLC network in November. A new book, America by Heart: Reflections on Family, Faith, and Flag, will be published the following week.

This spring and summer I traveled to Alaska and followed Palin’s road show through four midwestern states, speaking with whomever I could induce to talk under whatever conditions of anonymity they imposed—political strategists, longtime Palin friends and political associates, hotel staff, shopkeepers and hairstylists, and high-school friends of the Palin children. There’s a long and detailed version of what they had to say, but there’s also a short and simple one: anywhere you peel back the skin of Sarah Palin’s life, a sad and moldering strangeness lies beneath.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...h-palin-201010

There's seven more pages of this (yes, SEVEN!) and it gets really interesting. Demons, temper tantrums, crippling paranoia, very schadenfreude, and a little reassuring. No way can she remain this private if she were to run for president.
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:10 AM   #2
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Indeed she is - grizzley mums I think I saw on the daily show.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:17 AM   #3
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I want to live to see a female president... but not like this, oh no, not like this. *horror*
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:03 PM   #4
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Sarah Palin Is Batshit Insane
this is news you??
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:37 PM   #5
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Touche, just didn't think she was THAT insane.
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:11 PM   #6
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All I can say is that this woman scares the living shit out of me. I cringe every time I see her face.
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:45 PM   #7
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Palin's demagoguery would not be of any concern if it were not for the fact that much of the public accepts her diatribe. The times make the woman, and she merely rides a wave of ignorance and short sighted, self serving masses that make her high profile possible, despite her obvious shortcomings and foibles.

The duty of the intelligentsia is not only to vote for and support her opponents, but to undermine her foundation by persuading and convincing those in our midst who support her, to use viral communication to spread the truth about her, and render her impotent.

We must be careful to not only attack her politically, but to articulate our opposing position and reasoning behind it, as the best way to rob her of her support is not just to sling mud at her but to have her own party members abandon her in the light of reason.
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Old 09-04-2010, 10:56 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by HumanePain View Post
Palin's demagoguery would not be of any concern if it were not for the fact that much of the public accepts her diatribe. The times make the woman, and she merely rides a wave of ignorance and short sighted, self serving masses that make her high profile possible, despite her obvious shortcomings and foibles.

The duty of the intelligentsia is not only to vote for and support her opponents, but to undermine her foundation by persuading and convincing those in our midst who support her, to use viral communication to spread the truth about her, and render her impotent.

We must be careful to not only attack her politically, but to articulate our opposing position and reasoning behind it, as the best way to rob her of her support is not just to sling mud at her but to have her own party members abandon her in the light of reason.
I have to agree, people listen more to somone who appears calm and collected, than to somone who uses childish tactics to poke at somone, or shouts and yells.

A good metaphor for this I suppose is imagine you're looking at a red ball, you see the ball is red, that is the truth. Then imagine somone shines an extremely bright light on the ball, you can still see the ball is red obviously but because of the bright light your retnas contract because of the overwealming input, and you look away from the ball, from the truth, because of how irritating it is, like somone yelling.

A way of imagining a childish tactics metaphor I suppose instead of bright light on the ball, imagine a strobe light. The ball is still red, but it's hard to see because half the time the light is off, and somtimes there are other objects in the room, somtimes even the room is full of hundreds of red balls, or multi colored balls. You think maybe you're seeing things, you think maybe the ball isnt red, maybe the ball will change colors with the next flash. Like a person making fun of and overexaggerating the truth.

At least thats one way I can think of to describe it.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:24 AM   #9
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I have to agree, people listen more to somone who appears calm and collected, than to somone who uses childish tactics to poke at somone, or shouts and yells.
This is not specific to Sarah Palin, but I disagree with this generalization completely. The general public flocks to people who behave childishly, are rude and insulting about others and do a lot of shouting and yelling. Witness the success of Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, "The real housewives of whatever hellish province you have in mind" and "The Bachelor", TMZ and Perez Hilton, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.

I make this statement because as much as it goes against my hopes and desires, I believe a majority of the public are not thoughtful, discerning individuals who have their minds focused on the betterment of society.

Or, to put it back on topic, Palin's crowd is the subset of individuals who want to make sure their own pockets get lined, without concern for the greater needs of our fellow men, our cities, our country or our world.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:02 AM   #10
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All I can say is that this woman scares the living shit out of me. I cringe every time I see her face.
I do too, but partially because she's dumpster fire ugly.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:20 PM   #11
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This is not specific to Sarah Palin, but I disagree with this generalization completely. The general public flocks to people who behave childishly, are rude and insulting about others and do a lot of shouting and yelling. Witness the success of Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, "The real housewives of whatever hellish province you have in mind" and "The Bachelor", TMZ and Perez Hilton, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.

I make this statement because as much as it goes against my hopes and desires, I believe a majority of the public are not thoughtful, discerning individuals who have their minds focused on the betterment of society.

Or, to put it back on topic, Palin's crowd is the subset of individuals who want to make sure their own pockets get lined, without concern for the greater needs of our fellow men, our cities, our country or our world.
Gah I guess I got too caught up visualizing my own metaphor that I forgot not everyone is reasonable :P Oh well, it was an interesting thing to visualize I think.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger View Post
This is not specific to Sarah Palin, but I disagree with this generalization completely. The general public flocks to people who behave childishly, are rude and insulting about others and do a lot of shouting and yelling. Witness the success of Jerry Springer and Maury Povich, "The real housewives of whatever hellish province you have in mind" and "The Bachelor", TMZ and Perez Hilton, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.
Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh aside, no one really LIKES Perez Hilton (I know some like his blog but no one who actually likes him as a person) or any psycho on a reality tv show, its just base entertainment. Beck and Limbaugh do cater to that baseness of it but I think Palin also appeals to something else.

Quote:
I make this statement because as much as it goes against my hopes and desires, I believe a majority of the public are not thoughtful, discerning individuals who have their minds focused on the betterment of society.

Or, to put it back on topic, Palin's crowd is the subset of individuals who want to make sure their own pockets get lined, without concern for the greater needs of our fellow men, our cities, our country or our world.
I don't even think its that considering that yes its in the very wealthy's better interest to support Republicans, but the poor have no motivation to do so and you still see a lot of working class tea baggers and Palin supporters. Why?

A lot of it is that every annoying folksy charm. Yeah there's a lot of racism and xenophobia that has to do with it too, but I really think a lot of people support her anyway because she seems likable to them. I hate to say that hicks are voting for one of their own, but thats pretty much what we see happening. Yeah she's way too wealthy to truly be one of them, but thats what she seems like, uneducated and inexperienced as she is.

But yes, racism does play a huge part of it too. Everyone was all up in Obama's case for being inexperience but the woman didn't own a passport until she was 45, and that was okay? Screw seeing Russia from her house, she has no idea what the outside world is like.

*sigh* I was really happy when Obama got in, for the fact that it made me have hope for America at large, I hate to say it but I was really surprised that a black man won the election, and also I was happy that Palin would never see the White House and we could all just forget about her. No dice, huh?

On the other hand, she's very popular with the crazy crowd, but do the majority of Americans like her? She probably won't ever win an election, and being a pundit is filling her pockets up quite nicely.
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Old 09-05-2010, 07:07 PM   #13
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Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh aside, no one really LIKES Perez Hilton (I know some like his blog but no one who actually likes him as a person) or any psycho on a reality tv show, its just base entertainment.
The fact that they remain popular disproves you opinion. Ratings don't lie. You may say people don't like the psychos ... but they sure do like watching the psychos behaving badly.

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I don't even think its that considering that yes its in the very wealthy's better interest to support Republicans, but the poor have no motivation to do so and you still see a lot of working class tea baggers and Palin supporters. Why?
You confuse working class with poor. In this country, middle class and working class would be considered wealthy by standards in other parts of the world. I'm working class and I have a playstation 3, a 47 inch Hi-Def LCD TV, and many luxuries. I have problems but most of those come from being out of work. Most people in the middle and sub-middle (working class) see themselves as having a lot, and that is how the anti-tax, anti-big-government message takes hold. They don't think it's easy to get by, but they don't see themselves as poor. A recent opinion poll showed that even people who pay no taxes (they get ALL of their withholdings back) and get refunds (due to Federal credit programs) from the Federal income tax each year are against income taxes. In other words, people who turn a profit on Federal taxes are against Federal taxes!

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A lot of it is that every annoying folksy charm. Yeah there's a lot of racism and xenophobia that has to do with it too, but I really think a lot of people support her anyway because she seems likable to them.
That's a part of it. She has some charisma that doesn't work on you if you disagree with her basic views. She was also a beauty pageant contestant once, so she's considered a hottie by some (at least as far as politicians go.) And it's really not that much about the racism. That only came up recently (thanks Arizona) and she already had a huge following before that ever appeared on anyone's radar.

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But yes, racism does play a huge part of it too. Everyone was all up in Obama's case for being inexperience but the woman didn't own a passport until she was 45, and that was okay? Screw seeing Russia from her house, she has no idea what the outside world is like.

*sigh* I was really happy when Obama got in, for the fact that it made me have hope for America at large, I hate to say it but I was really surprised that a black man won the election, and also I was happy that Palin would never see the White House and we could all just forget about her. No dice, huh?

On the other hand, she's very popular with the crazy crowd, but do the majority of Americans like her?
Actually, many more than you would suspect. In the 2008 presidential election, she and John McCain got 59,934,814 popular votes. (By comparison, President Obama and Vice President Biden got 69,456,897 popular votes.) On her own, separated from the incredibly grumpy McCain, her popularity has not waned ... in fact, many political observers have speculated that it (and her influence) have grown.

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She probably won't ever win an election, and being a pundit is filling her pockets up quite nicely.
Just because you dislike someone and don't agree with their policies and behavior does not mean it is wise to underestimate their strengths and their tactics when it comes time for the battle. She could win an election, and it's talk like yours which could enable such an outcome.

I'll just say what's been said before in this thread. If you go after her with personal attacks, you won't sway anyone who hasn't already been swayed. You have to debate her politics if you want to convert the hypnotized masses.
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:43 PM   #14
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A recent opinion poll showed that even people who pay no taxes (they get ALL of their withholdings back) and get refunds (due to Federal credit programs) from the Federal income tax each year are against income taxes. In other words, people who turn a profit on Federal taxes are against Federal taxes!
That alone should tell you that you're wrong in thinking her followers are people who make a rational egotist decision in worrying only about their pockets.

Her following really consists on a huge working-class rural demographics who in objective terms should be the ones that are most benefited from progressive and even socialist policies.
The mantra of "no taxes" is almost entirely political and not at all economic. The economic aspect of the mantra only really matter in the high echelons that maintain this astroturf Tea Party bullshit, but the bulk of the movements genuinely believe in the message. They genuinely believe the tea party movements is in the best interests of America and that Palin really cares about them and is one of them.
One of the biggest complaints about "socialism" and the "mainstream media" is that they're creating a nanny state without freedoms where everyone is a follower, yet they're some of the biggest examples of herd mentality because they can't see how they're being played. They're so predictable and easy to control because the rhetoric leads them to believe that they are the ones with the momentum; that the Tea Party movement somehow grows on its own instead of being engineered from the top
And holy shit is it effective in making them believe it. In fact if I could apply it myself, I totally would; it's just genius.

This being the internet, don't immediately invoke Godwin's Law when you read this, because it's dead serious and dead accurate:
If you research a little into the Frankfurt School writings on precisely why fascism found its largest following among the most downtrodden proletariat who were harmed the most from it, you find that all those psychological mechanisms fit this current American context to the dot.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:49 PM   #15
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The fact that they remain popular disproves you opinion. Ratings don't lie. You may say people don't like the psychos ... but they sure do like watching the psychos behaving badly.
I even know liberals who listen to Beck just to keep tabs on what the other side is saying, just because ratings are good doesn't mean that everyone thinks its good. You watch Springer to laugh, not to empathize with the tangled web a trailer park is weaving. And most people know that its very fake.

Difference is, yeah Palin can at times be very entertaining (see: Shakespalin) and a lot of people like to follow her facebook and twitter just to see what she'll say next, and the news reports it a lot because yes they know people are actually agreeing with her, but also because its pretty hilarious sometimes. Or appalling. Doesn't mean they'll vote for her :P

I'd make an analogy about a train wreck, and how you don't vote for them...

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You confuse working class with poor. In this country, middle class and working class would be considered wealthy by standards in other parts of the world. I'm working class and I have a playstation 3, a 47 inch Hi-Def LCD TV, and many luxuries. I have problems but most of those come from being out of work. Most people in the middle and sub-middle (working class) see themselves as having a lot, and that is how the anti-tax, anti-big-government message takes hold. They don't think it's easy to get by, but they don't see themselves as poor. A recent opinion poll showed that even people who pay no taxes (they get ALL of their withholdings back) and get refunds (due to Federal credit programs) from the Federal income tax each year are against income taxes. In other words, people who turn a profit on Federal taxes are against Federal taxes!
Alan makes a great point of this, but also, even if you're getting by okay doesn't mean everyone else is. We can argue over the definition of working class but it is the working class thats getting reamed up the ass by the recession the hardest, you're doing okay but many others are not faring so well at all. Yeah its worse in China but that doesn't mean that the people aren't having a lot of trouble and would probably benefit a little more if they weren't supporting people who would love to cut their unemployment benefits or would cut funding to health care, which is a very common problem for those in low paying, low tier jobs.

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That's a part of it. She has some charisma that doesn't work on you if you disagree with her basic views. She was also a beauty pageant contestant once, so she's considered a hottie by some (at least as far as politicians go.) And it's really not that much about the racism. That only came up recently (thanks Arizona) and she already had a huge following before that ever appeared on anyone's radar.
Oh it didn't start with Arizona, lets not forget all the calls that Obama was not born in America, is pallin around with terrorists (as Palin put it, neglecting to mention her pallin' around with Alaskan separatists) , that woman who cornered McCain about Obama being an Arab and a Muslim, that in her Grizzly Mama rallies there's nary a black grizzly mama in sight, the black guy who got accosted at the tea bagger Islamic Center protest, because you know, all black people are Muslims (like Obama!), I could google and dig up more examples. Not saying that all conservatives are racists, or even most, but most tea baggers certainly are.

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Actually, many more than you would suspect. In the 2008 presidential election, she and John McCain got 59,934,814 popular votes. (By comparison, President Obama and Vice President Biden got 69,456,897 popular votes.) On her own, separated from the incredibly grumpy McCain, her popularity has not waned ... in fact, many political observers have speculated that it (and her influence) have grown.
She's the messiah of the far right, but her approval rate plummeted before she left Alaska, as of March The Washington Post found that 41% of adults have a strongly unfavourable opinion of Palin as opposed to 17% gave a strongly favourable opinion. And there's a more recent WSJ/NBC poll, and I know MSNBC isn't exactly unbiased but its the most recent one I can find:

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According to our NBC/WSJ poll, just 29% view her favorably, compared with 43% who view her unfavorably (not far from George W. Bush’s 29%-50% score). In addition, the poll shows that 52% have problems with a candidate who has been endorsed by Palin, versus only 25% who are comfortable with that attribute. We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again: Palin is more of a political celebrity than a political figure.
Generally its hard to get a good grasp on how many Americans like her because she's not an elected official anymore, so we'll probably not really know, but there's a good indication that of people who have a strong opinion about her, its mostly unfavourable.

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Just because you dislike someone and don't agree with their policies and behavior does not mean it is wise to underestimate their strengths and their tactics when it comes time for the battle. She could win an election, and it's talk like yours which could enable such an outcome.
So far she's really great at inciting hate and racism (see her tweets about the Islamic Center) but her shadow is pretty short, I think America has enough Liberals (and I mean that with a big L, not the "liberals" they complain about on tv) and moderates that she wouldn't sway a whole country to vote for her racist, antifeminist ways.
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I'll just say what's been said before in this thread. If you go after her with personal attacks, you won't sway anyone who hasn't already been swayed. You have to debate her politics if you want to convert the hypnotized masses.
See, I don't think so. Her politics are pretty bad, no abortion even for rrape victims, rrape victims must pay for their rrape kits, abstinence only in schools, they've been arguing about this since she ran for VP. What people like about her is mostly her, and they've been good at not letting her show her bad side on film. When she was running it was very clear that she was given talking points and was on a short leash, everyone was commenting about this.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:22 PM   #16
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That alone should tell you that you're wrong in thinking her followers are people who make a rational egotist decision in worrying only about their pockets.
I didn't say it was rational ... that was my point.

You and I actually agree. You said the majority of people who support her are working class folks who would benefit more from liberal or socialistic policies. That's irrational. We agree.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:30 PM   #17
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Saya, look, you're wrong about trash TV. You're just wrong. You said people watch Springer to laugh ... I don't care why they watch. The fact that they do instead of checking out some PBS, so they can watch the funny "fake" bad behavior, was my point.

And I'm not going to tackle the rest of that. It's late, and I don't want to appear in any way that I am supportive of Ms. Palin, because I'm not. I disagree with her politics tremendously. But that's the fight I want to fight, not fill the internet with stories about how she seems insane to some people. She seems driven but stupid to me, and that last time I saw a politician like that come into prominence it was George Bush Jr ... and I could have swore there was no way this country would elect that dumb redneck to the highest office in this country.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:49 AM   #18
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Sarah Palin is indeed insane. That woman is scary.
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:57 PM   #19
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She looks better as Tina Frey.
A little bit.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:21 PM   #20
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You know... reading that article makes me think about that kind of situation. These people that support this woman are the kind of people who don't know what they want. All they care about is their "working American" aesthetic. Not because they actually believe in that, but they like the whole jingoistic attitude of sticking it to the man, being independent, and having that common solidarity of being salt of the earth. There's something VERY sexy about being the underdog with a moral high ground and middle America eats that shit up. Sadly, these people don't stop to think what it means to be the underdog or to have a real moral high ground. They can't be reasoned with. There is no reason in it.

Fuck them. They're a lost cause.
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