Looking at children? Go to jail!

[Beneath the Shadows]

Bill toughens law on visual sexual aggression against children in Maine
Officer, lawmaker team up

Rep. Dawn Hill, Democrat from Youk, Maine, supports a bill that strengthens the law against visual aggression against children.

By Dave Choate
[email protected]
April 06, 2008 6:00 AM

Those who peer at children in public could find themselves on the wrong side of the law in Maine soon.

A bill that passed the House last month aims to strengthen the crime of visual sexual aggression against children, according to state Rep. Dawn Hill, D-York.

Her involvement started when Ogunquit Police Lt. David Alexander was called to a local beach to deal with a man who appeared to be observing children entering the community bathrooms. Because the state statute prevents arrests for visual sexual aggression of a child in a public place, Alexander said he and his fellow officer could only ask the man to move along.

"There was no violation of law that we could enforce. There was nothing we could charge him with," Alexander said.

He attended a talk with Hill a week later and brought the case to her attention. Hill pledged to do what she could, Alexander said, and the result was a change through the Criminal Justice and Public Safety Committee in the House, which made the law applicable in both private and public places.

Alexander said he's grateful Hill was willing to take up the cause, and is hopeful the measure will clear the Senate.

"I'll be pleased that we were able to identify this flaw and take steps to rectify it," he said.

Under the bill, if someone is arrested for viewing children in a public place, it would be a Class D felony if the child is between 12 to 14 years old and a Class C felony if the child is under 12, according to Alexander.

Hill said she believes the move was necessary to correct what she called a "loophole" in the state's criminal law statutes.

"I told Lt. Alexander that I would be happy to work with him and sponsor a bill that would correct this in the 2008 session," Hill said. "And so we did."

In arguing for the bill, Alexander said she cited public rest rooms as places where the people using them should have a reasonable expectation of privacy. She said the committee determined that there would not be any major side effects from expanding the statute to include public places.

The bill recently cleared a fiscal review, done because of the state's major prison budget crunch, and Hill said it should be heading to the Senate before long.

York Police Chief Doug Bracy said the statute would represent a fairly minor change that would help keep the public safer, especially children. He noted that York police respond fairly regularly to reports of public peepers on the town's beaches.

With ever-growing concern over sexual predators, Bracy said the arrests will also allow police to check backgrounds and determine if there is a criminal history involved.

"There is a growing outcry by the public to protect our children," Bracy said, noting that tourists from all over the country visit York.

Source.

Now, this is a stupid idea if ever I saw one.

First of all, "visual sexual aggression?" What... the... fuck?! Oh, yes... "I'm being sexually aggressive at you!" *stares* I guess that makes the Care Bears bad role models.

Secondly, laws are supposed to protect people. Preventing people from looking at other people does not prevent harm.

Thirdly, this law is supposed to close up a loop-hole, but in reality it opens up an even bigger one. Children will be able to get people arrested by claiming "He keeps staring at me."

I don't think I've ever heard of a dumber law.

[Smile]

Agreed. There is far too much paranoia involving "sex crimes" in America nowadays. Guess you can't blame 'em. We WERE founded by a bunch of puritans. Damn, if I were still a hot young 14 year old like I used to be, I could get that ice cream man to give me free ice cream by threatening to tell police that he was "visually sexually aggressing me". If parents stopped dressing their 7-year old daughters up like they were whores, they would have nothing to worry about. You see little girls with flashly clothes and short skirts everywhere you look. The government should punish the parents for "child endangerment", that's the way a NORMAL society should function.

[Smile]

Also, what's the whole deal about registering sex offenders on a national database when you thieves or even murderers don't even have to be registered? Are parents that worried about spending money taking care of a traumatized child (from sexual predators) than their child getting murdered or their possession stolen?

[Opteron_Man]

Well unless you are gawking at small children from the shadows with your tongue hanging out and a hand down your pants, you should be fine. Of course, if you are just going about your own buisness, and you look down at them so as not to trip over them I don't see a problem.

[Beneath the Shadows]

My prediction for if this bill actually becomes a law... sunglasses sales in Maine will skyrocket.

[ionic_angel]

A felony? For staring at a child?

Now, I don't spend my time staring at children, considering many other things (such as, for example, getting my teeth drilled) to be much more entertaining, but exactly how would one enforce this?

How long is a stare? One minute? Ten minutes? How can they tell how long you've been staring?

Sheesh. Every day, sitting in my room by myself seems like both the safer and more sane option.

[Apathy's_Child]

It'd make more sense to pass a law against children dressing provocatively in public. It'd be ridiculous, and lack strong criteria for enforcement, but less so than this one.

[Wormboy]

People assume the worst.

Ok lets say there's an elderly gent sitting on a bench at the beach looking at a bunch of children play. Then these asshole cops arrest him for a felony. What's to say even if he was watching the children, that he's thinking anything sexual? Maybe he has a few children who are already adults and misses the time when they were little and is just watching the children play because it brings him happiness by reminding him of his children when they were young? Would you deny a sweet old man such?

It's ludicrous

[ThreeEyesOni]

I'm not sure which part of this disturbs me the most...

That it's essentially a thought-crime, seeing as if there was any way to determine if the person was leering with sexual desire (bulge in pants, fondling, etc) they could be charged under existing laws. Even in fiction, thought crimes are generally used when there are ways to verify the thoughts; ie mind-reading.

That this is a felony thought crime, and one that is pretty much designed for abuse. A felony is usually the punishment for doing something rather significantly bad, not the punishment for doing something that could be done by someone that might break the law.

That this is in my own state and this is the first that I've heard of it. Obviously all the newspapers were busy focusing on the recent attempt in Maine to ban energy-drink sales to anyone under the age of 18. And I'm pretty sure that's deliberate.

[AngelikDemonik]

If they made vaginal birth a sex crime, I wouldn't be amazed.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Yeah, or declared that doctors/midwives who look while helping deliver were being voyeuristic and "visually aggressive."

This law is stupid. I hope it doesn't clear the senate. I agree with Opteron_Man about what it's supposed to prevent, but it could be taken too far. There are enough paranoid people out there (me being one of them, sometimes) who would feel intimidated and get an innocent person arrested... All the jails will get clogged up with people who shouldn't be there.
When someone looks in our direction, we tend to assume that he/she is looking at us, and that when someone is looking at our face, that he/she is looking at our eyes. The seemingly creepy guy on the bus may just be looking out the window beside your head.

[CptSternn]

I already posted about how video taping childrens after school activities is now considered illegal, unless its your own child.

This is just more craziness along the same lines. Like crack, rap music, and the bogeyman - politicians and elected law enforcement officials will use it for political gain.

Most people don't realise that sheriffs and police chiefs are elected. Some are elected by the people, others by government appointed boards. Either way, they have to prove they deserve the position. How do they do that? They show their record, how many arrests they have on their watch, their total convictions, and how many other side programmes they sponsored to help the community.

They love crap like this because it makes it look like they are doing something, when the reality is they are just fanning the flames on a silly fear that is being hyped by the media.

Much like cops who get promotions based on the number of tickets that they write, the system also is open to abuse by those at the top as well.

[Tam Li Hua]

Yeah, this -does- seem a bit ridiculous. :/ I mean, I can understand wanting to protect kids, but sheesh...it's like they want to hide their kids from the world.

However, about the videotaping thing...if you are videotaping strange children on a playground, then that -is- a bit creepy [unless you're a news reporter doing a report on the school or something].

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I already posted about how video taping childrens after school activities is now considered illegal, unless its your own child.

Even so, there are some really shitty parents/guardians out there....

We should just stop having children. They're such a huge problem... It would be so much easier on us, the environment, and every other living being on the planet if we just stopped having children.

[gothicusmaximus]

Damn. In the past, I've tried to keep a close eye on all nearby children to ensure that no sex offenders are creeping up on them, but I guess they're on their own now.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Smile

Agreed. There is far too much paranoia involving "sex crimes" in America nowadays. Guess you can't blame 'em. We WERE founded by a bunch of puritans. Damn, if I were still a hot young 14 year old like I used to be, I could get that ice cream man to give me free ice cream by threatening to tell police that he was "visually sexually aggressing me". If parents stopped dressing their 7-year old daughters up like they were whores, they would have nothing to worry about. You see little girls with flashly clothes and short skirts everywhere you look. The government should punish the parents for "child endangerment", that's the way a NORMAL society should function.

smile, I understand the sentiment, but what about kids who just look nice? There is, however, attention getting clothing that is tasteful on kids.

Actually, sorry. I have to go one step further. Tasteless clothing for kids. Bad. But the statement "If parents stopped dressing their 7-year old daughters up like they were whores" is very very much like the same statement as "If women would stop dressing up like whores."

A sexual predator is a sexual predator. Be it a child molester/rapist or a rapist, they're BOTH equally fucked up.

[Pye]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

People assume the worst.

Ok lets say there's an elderly gent sitting on a bench at the beach looking at a bunch of children play. Then these asshole cops arrest him for a felony. What's to say even if he was watching the children, that he's thinking anything sexual? Maybe he has a few children who are already adults and misses the time when they were little and is just watching the children play because it brings him happiness by reminding him of his children when they were young? Would you deny a sweet old man such?

It's ludicrous

This is what I was thinking.
Can a human not watch young humans frolicking and playing together? I personally adore little kidlets and the mad things they do. I would love to have my own at some point but I don't feel it would be right at this time. I don't see why I must be berated for enjoying one of the pleasures of life, watching new life blossom and grow.This is outrageous.

I can understand worrying about a feller with the tongue hanging out etc. etc. but this is taking it a bit too far. Surely telling him to piss off and keeping an eye on him will do.

However, about the videotaping thing...if you are videotaping strange children on a playground, then that -is- a bit creepy

I agree. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Taping random kids is just a bit bonkers unless like you said if it was a reporter, in which case they would have permission from the event organisers etc.

KontanKarite
I can see what you mean to a point. But dressing a child up like an adult is not usually their choice, it's often the mothers because she thinks she owns a wee doll. If a fully grown woman wants to dress like a tart, let her, it's her choice, she knows the risks and is prepared with wisdom (hopefully) which comes with age. Just don't force it on the child. Parents have a responsibility to their kids not to dress them up like bait. Dressing in certain ways does encourage unwanted attention. It's no excuse for it, but that doesn't stop those who are encouraged by it.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Pye

KontanKarite
I can see what you mean to a point. But dressing a child up like an adult is not usually their choice, it's often the mothers because she thinks she owns a wee doll. If a fully grown woman wants to dress like a tart, let her, it's her choice, she knows the risks and is prepared with wisdom (hopefully) which comes with age. Just don't force it on the child. Parents have a responsibility to their kids not to dress them up like bait. Dressing in certain ways does encourage unwanted attention. It's no excuse for it, but that doesn't stop those who are encouraged by it.

Dressing kids as tarts? These things DO happen, true and I will say that certain styles invoke feelings in those who ALREADY have the intention of committing some kind of crime with underage kids and well, people in general.

But I think you're confusing the effects of a crime. This is why LOOKS don't directly involve the crime itself. Crimes are committed when three things happen. Opportunity, Capability, and Intent. Dressing up like a slut does not create opportunity. It also doesn't make one more capable of doing something wrong. As for intent, despite how we may think looking like a prime piece of ass would in some way create intent, we would be incorrect in saying that. Intent itself, must have always been there. A child doesn't have to look like a hooch to get ***** or molested. Don't assume that just because a kid looks as plain as possible, that they're safe from those that intend to do the crime. The REAL problem here is not what kids look like, but a lack of vigilance from their parents and family.

[Pye]

I'm not confusing anything. You're confusing my point. I'm not saying dressing kids in this way causes it, I'm saying it doesn't help. It's like waving a proverbial red flag in front of a bull. Dress a child like a sexy woman and you automatically make her more desirable to one of these types. Maybe he even thinks it's more Ok because of this provocative dressing. He clearly had these thoughts before, making her look like a glamour model is only feeding his dreams and desires.

I don't think I've once said a child dressed plainly was immune either. I simply feel that dressing children up like adults in a sexual manner is wrong, full stop. It invites unwanted attention from these already predatory types and implies the child is more mature than they are. I have not said anywhere that it was the cause of such acts. The people who commit these crimes are already there, if there is something parents can do to lessen the risk why knock it?

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Pye

KontanKarite
I can see what you mean to a point. But dressing a child up like an adult is not usually their choice, it's often the mothers because she thinks she owns a wee doll. If a fully grown woman wants to dress like a tart, let her, it's her choice, she knows the risks and is prepared with wisdom (hopefully) which comes with age. Just don't force it on the child. Parents have a responsibility to their kids not to dress them up like bait.

Mmmm A good deal of kids want to dress like adults because it makes them feel older. I remember I did.
Parents have a responsibility to their kids to not LET them dress like bait.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Pye

The people who commit these crimes are already there, if there is something parents can do to lessen the risk why knock it?

Well, we can also go a step further with this thinking. I mean, yes, if this really lessens the chances of a crime happening, we can all take a lesson from stuff like this and do our best to look in a way that doesn't draw attention to us at all.

I'm simply saying that if dressing kids like that makes it worse for a child, then it also makes it worst for adults on the grounds that adults who this happens to, be it some kind of assault, must be partially at fault for dressing in a way that makes others with less control of their facilities to react in such a way. So I'm simply saying that last time I checked, when this sort of thing applies to adults, it doesn't mean they're partially at fault for wearing a short skirt and a belly shirt.

In my closing, I'll give mind at ease and say that dressing children up like floozies is in bad taste.

[AngelikDemonik]

This doesn't really have to do with sexual predators, but I'd figure I'd throw this in...

Kids, in generally, are clumsy. They fall, they fight, get dirty, touch things they shouldn't, etc. Parents can't be expected to put their kids into giant plastic bubbles to protect them 24/7. As a future Nurse, I am required BY LAW, to report anything that I might *think* could be child abuse. If not, and something happens to that child, I could get into major trouble.

While this absolutely can help a lot of abused children, what about the clumsy ones? It's kind of hard to tell between a kid who fell down the stairs because he was running on a wood floor with socks or a kid who was pushed down the stairs by his parents.

It's not really fair for good parents who have clumsy kids.

My own mother was accused of abusing ME when I child...which never happened. I was just late on catching my balance and I was quite a tom-boy.

Back to watching Law and Order...it's about sexual predators, conincidentally....

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

Back to watching Law and Order...it's about sexual predators, conincidentally....

If you're watching SVU, I'm not surprised.

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

If you're watching SVU, I'm not surprised.

I think it was CI.

[Opteron_Man]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

People assume the worst.

Ok lets say there's an elderly gent sitting on a bench at the beach looking at a bunch of children play. Then these asshole cops arrest him for a felony. What's to say even if he was watching the children, that he's thinking anything sexual? Maybe he has a few children who are already adults and misses the time when they were little and is just watching the children play because it brings him happiness by reminding him of his children when they were young? Would you deny a sweet old man such?

It's ludicrous

Now what if the old man is watching his grandchildren? If he was minding them does it mean he can't look at them while he is babysitting them!? Would it matter to court if the person knows the kid or not?