Nearly fed-up with 'Goths'

[Gloomtoxin]

This is a "bitch about the scene" thread. Sorry about beating a dead horse for my 2nd post, but I have some things that have been bothering me for about a year and I want to vent to faceless strangers on the internet

When it comes to identifying myself as a Goth, I think I am pretty much close to done and fedup. Reasons being that I am tired of smiling or starting conversations with strangers only to be snubbed. I am tired of people on webforums ridiculing other members to try to raise their Goth points or scene cred.

Frankly one of the reasons that I, as a 15 year old, thought Goth would be cool was that I couldn't see the elitism and social climbing that is so present in this "culture." I figured, the music is so good the people that are fans of this must be good too, what a great way to meet friends.

But after a few years, a couple asshole moves on my part (I must admit) and enough turned up noses to my grins, I am just bitter. I don't expect people to embrace me as if I am an old friend, but I want some goddamn courtesy. Just some simple, honest, human-to-human courtesy.

I think about all of the times that I have been able to start converstations with people that I thought looked like real jerks, and I have been surprised by their courtesy. From people that are sagging their pants off their ass to Urban Cowboys to Grandmas to Gymbums, I have had more pleasant encounters with these people who are supposed to be close-minded and judgemental of a person with weird hair, black clothes and peircings than I have ever had with a Goth I have just met.

Some people like to make excuses for it: "People into this are generally shy and they don't socialize well so they come off as rude," or "most of us have become cautious of people we see as 'gothic' since 9 times out of 10 they don't have any clue what 'goth' is." But, these are weak excuses for rude behavior. And unfortunately rude behavior is not the worst of this, the outwright schoolyard insults on web boards is shamefully absurd.

For some reason on many subcultural music forums people decide, "don't take anything you read seriously" is an excuse to act like children. I am sorry that I can't trust the way you broadcast yourself to the world to be accurate, but I thought people typed out their real thoughts and feelings on a subject and not sarcastic remarks because, you can't tell sarcasm from a typed sentence. I am not an activist by any means, but calling everything 'Gay' or 'faggy' in every post is borderline offensive and utterly juvenile. Not to mention the constant fat jokes, most people in America are fat, so why are so many people on web forums acting like they are the picture of a peak physique? Most of the pics you see for these members show that they are either fat or extremely skinny and very appeearance-obsessed (every pic a hawk is spiked meticulously, and make-up is perfect, come on not one 'lazy day' photo?).

Well that is essentially what I needed to bitch about, I thought it might be an old complaint but it is still unfortunately a very valid one.

[KontanKarite]

I feel you, man. My complaint isn't so much the thing of being shy or 9 times out of 10, you get poseurs, but that as far as I can tell and from what I've encountered in the scene is that goths for the most part, aren't that interesting. Either that or they're perfectly predictable.

This is why you don't catch me at the goth events in my city and more in random dive bars late at night, singing karaoke songs of Bowie or Rick Rolling the building. You'll also catch me taking a walk out in the sunny days or cloudy days at the cemeteries or at a coffee shop, acting all intellectual and deep. ^__^ I still haven't given up the camp all together.

Goth to me, has lost the DIY aesthetic in the name of events capitalizing on an identity. Either you're wrong, or you're too right to be interesting in regards to a goth club.

Some people at the last goth club I was at, confused me for being a punk. I kinda liked that.

If you're in the scene for the music, but there's no bands in town worth mentioning and all you have are DJs, then why go out to a place riddled with the shallow and the "dark hippies", when you can supply your own playlists and entertain yourself?

[Kristin]

Yeah, I see your point. I was what my daughter calls an "origigoth," meaning I wore all black and listened to Depeche Mode, The Cure, Clan of Xymox, Bauhaus, in the 80's back when New Romantic was being nudged aside for goth. I had friends of all labels, many of them goth, and we all had fun together and there was little judging.

I'm 35, and starting to get back into dressing like a goth, albeit much more moderate since I have kids, a job, and a freaked-out husband. Now I find myself worrying about whether I'm dressing wrong, saying the wrong things, or listening to the wrong music. I had to tell myself today to stop, slapped myself in the face a little, and reminded myself of the real reason I'm reclaiming my former self (no, it's not a midlife crisis, no it's not, it's not). I'm tired of trying to conform to what society thinks a 35-year-old mom should look like. I love the way I dress now, I love the music I listen to, and I'm not going to change my way of thinking in order to fit into a mold that some people have tried to create for a genre that was never intended to have molds or be called a genre.

I think the whole point of being goth is to be true to yourself and not have to conform to a way of thinking or a type of music or clothing style. We're non-conformists, and we should be non-judgmentalists too. Although I will still ask for advice on whether I should go outdoors in a certain corset or if it makes me look like a cow.

I hope I'm making sense. I've got a bit of insomnia tonight.

[Raptor]

I've never found any group of people that consists entirely of people I like, or a whole group of people that I hate. Goth is the same as everything else, saying theres no nice people is a bit extreme. Hell some random people came to keep me company at a club on Saturday just because I was sitting on my own resting for a few minutes. A lot of the people there never even looked at me, never mind tried to start a conversation. And that makes it just like any other club, except this way it plays music I enjoy.

People that judge you based on your tastes in music aren't worth talking to.

The internet brings out the worst in people sometimes, so many boards are full of pointless flaming.

[TopHaggardDoll]

My experience with goths has been completely different to yours gloomtoxin....I mean, at one of the clubs I frequent...everyone talks to eachother, even if they don't know you, they'll talk to you...we've had "goth floor hugs" and everything lol.
The london goth scene can be slightly cold, but I don't worry about the twats. Most are extremely nice.

Even when not at clubs (I don't go partying that much anymore) me and my friends go for tea and draw or go for walks in the woods. Totally camp. lol.

The only goths I ever met who seem to take joy in ridiculing others is on this site. I am totally serious...I've never met a group of people in my life who bicker as much as some of the people on here do.

[Raptor]

Yah, it was Slimes I was at on Saturday. Got random people to sign the membership thing as well, the ones I asked were nice enough. I've not talked to anyone that I didn't like, just get ignored completely by some.

[TopHaggardDoll]

:O! are you going this weekend!? It's my mates 21st and we're all going!

[honeythorn]

I have to say that the first time I have ever been around any other actual goths was at the Whitby Gothic weekend, this weekend just past !

I wasn't entirely sure how to be around them as none of my friends are goths, or even particularly alternative, but the woman I went with ( who I had never met before, and knew from a pagan website ) was lovely, and I found that everyone I spoke to was very friendly and polite.

There was no OMFG WOT ARE YOU WEARIN? or YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF THIS BAND? HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A GOFF? or anything like that. I really enjoyed myself and I have no problem with going alone in October when it's on again. I know I'll find someone to talk to.

[mindless1]

I'm not sure what to say- I have been tolerating the hate from people on this forum for no reason other then I am used to being tolerant to people.
I really appreciate the few people who have stuck up for me in this scenario because without at least one person who has the guts to show themselves even on a computer screen. Wow! Power to you!
Scene--honestly I don't give a damn what you dress like or look like or what your taste is- it's your real life personality that matters.

[Duane]

Damn... we should've made a bet, I would've made bank.

I don't care about appearance, I care about personallity, well... most of the time.

[le_revenant]

There's no reason to necessarily give up being "gothic" on account of a few asswipes.
I love goth because of how aspects of it soothe my soul & speak to me like few other genres can, not because its "in" or fashionable. Luckily, scientists at Muppet Labs ("Where the Future is Here, Today!") in Helsinki, Finland were able to combine the "goth" gene with the "rockabilly" gene to create what Isacc Newton theoretically called "the gothabilly gene", and that suits me even better!

Still, I feel your pain. In the last few weeks, though I never gave up wearing certain items, I just couldn't be bothered to go to yonder club's "goth night" or visit other gothy forums. Other forums seemed to be overrun by tweeners & teens (no offense) making this 30-somethin' goth feel a bit out of place & unable to connect. The club scene depressed me as the place would be reminsicent of a high school lunchroom with this clique here, that one over there, and me (typically) sitting in the no-man's land in between. Worse, the cool clothing that wowed me in the magazines was nowhere to be seen at the clubs. Just the same stereotypical mall "uniform".

Lately, though, the interest in getting out there again is reawakening. Sure I'm bound to run into the younger set at the clubs. Comes with the territory. Still, if somebody like Kristin is reawakening too, its only a matter of time before I'll run into somebody I can actually connect with.

With our luck, tho, somebody will probably run up & ask if we're chaperoning the dance... lol.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by TopHaggardDoll

:O! are you going this weekend!? It's my mates 21st and we're all going!

Aww, you should have had it last weekend Sadly no, I'm from Herts but I'm actually at uni in Bristol at the moment. Last weekend me and one of my mates here got the train to London and came back the next day. I don't think I'll be going again until this term is finished, it costs a lot to travel and I need to start revising at some point...

Originally Posted by le_revenant

There's no reason to necessarily give up being "gothic" on account of a few asswipes.

Exactly.

[Edward Strange]

:O! You're in Bristol? I'm in Cardiff!
What a small island we live upon.

I remember when I Slimelight, we didn't stay very long as had to catch the tube back to Epping (which was.. Interesting), so I think we missed out on the vast majority of the 'good vibes', but we got to see lots of wonderful people and everyone seemed friendly.
Because it was our first time we were a little nervous!

Are some of the stories I hear about that place true? Unspeakable acts being carried out in the toilets? Corrupt security staff? Lax adherence to the dress code and even laxer adherence to licensing laws in relation to underage people getting in? D:
But maybe I'm paying far too much attention to dastardly rumours.

Anyway, I must say I am inclined to agree with Gloomtoxin unfortunately, to my shame I used to be such an ass-hat, but I'd like to think now that I'm a little older and wiser..

On an ever so slight tangent, about people spoiling the alternative thing for the rest of us, I can think and remember times when I've seen large gangs of alternative kids getting engaging in anti-social behaviour and making people very uncomfortable, which I don't agree with at all!
Once on a train they tried to get me to come over but I wasn't having any of it!
High spirits perhaps, but have consideration for those around you please, we're supposed to be 'different' from masses aren't we? And have a greater understanding for respecting the feelings of those who are different?

But anyway. I'm not really sure I can comment on the whole goth issue presented here. I mean.. The people on here do bicker, quite alot. But in terms of the real world I don't think I have enough experience to comment...

[Raptor]

Thats pretty close!

Yeh I had to go back to Bristol from Slimes, and we stayed until 7:15. Didn't manage to sleep on the train or during the day on Sunday either Um well as for the dress code the bouncers almost didn't let my mate in for some reason. He was wearing combat trousers, army boots, a Nitzer Ebb (or maybe Neubauten, can't remember) tshit and a jacket. They claimed the dress code is "all black"? I swear it was suppose to be "alternative"? Anyway they let him after a bit of arguing. I can imagine stuff goes on in the toliets lol! Not sure about the underage thing.

Theres a goth club here open once a month. I don't particularly like it there, a few third years go and the rest are quite a bit older. Plus I overheard a group of them complaining about the music (Combichrist at that moment) because it wasn't "proper" goth. Fair enough if they think that, but they were there at the beginning when Sisters and Fields of the Nephilim type stuff was on and they stayed sitting down. When Combichrist type stuff was on loads of people danced, seems obvious to me that a DJ is gonna pick stuff it looks like people are enjoying! I like the music there but I pretty much spend the whole night with the people I arrive with.

[Tea and Cake or Death]

Goths are like any other group of people. There are going to be cliques. Perhaps the ones where you live are just worse. There are a lot of points on your post that I agree with, and others that I don't. I've not had people snub me, as of yet. Most of the ones I've met have always been sweet. A sort of "welcome to the misfits club!" thing. Although, to be fair, I did enter my particular "scene" by dating the most popular guy in it.l So perhaps by association I was thought of as cool. I don't know. It's a case by case study I suppose.

BTW... KontanKarite, You had me at Rick Roll.

[Cicero]

First off, there's no goth 'scene' on the internet, least of all on gothic.net. The scene also varies a lot from place to place, depending largely on the amount of goths around, and what subgenres they prefer.

I think the main reason for people being so unhappy with the way the 'goth scene' is would be disillusionment. People new to the scene always have such high expectations! It's just a group of people with similar taste in music and fashion, some are arseholes some are awesome, just like any other group of humans.

Now I might go into a bit of a rant here, but...

I'm probably one of the 'elitists' so many people complain about. Let's just say that myself and a number of my friends in the Melbourne goth scene value vanity rather highly, and take just as long getting ready to go to the club as we do at the venue. We're also the ones standing disgusted in the corner the moment EBM starts playing, laughing at the wankers decked out head to toe in PVC with UV reflective hairfalls dancing to said music. We use the word 'Combichrist' as an insult. We also tend to laugh at anyone dressed vaguely boringly or those who are just trying too damn hard. And if you don't listen to much deathrock or tradgoth you might as well not exist.

Yet we're also the ones who fill the dancefloor to songs like 'Lovegames' from the Mighty Boosh, feature a giant inflateable banana in our main club night and greet each other with such endearing terms as 'Hey, slut!'. We don't take anything seriously, especially not the so-called scene 'politics' so many others concern themselves with. The bottom line is all we care about is being able to listen and dance to the music we like best - perhaps that's why about 1 in 3 deathrockers here are DJs, haha.

So if you couldn't be bothered reading that: don't take the elitists seriously, they're probably just taking the piss. Laugh with them and you may be one of them

[Gloomtoxin]

I definately agree with Cicero on the topic of disillusionment, however I don't think that treating strangers nicely is that high of an expectation. And I know what you mean about trying not to take people seriously, there several things which depending on my mood that day I may at one time find hilarious and at other times beat someone's throat into concavity. Sometimes I do need to just lighten-up, but on the other hand take a second to re-read Cicero's post. I do not mean this as an insult or an attack, but if you only substitute a few words in there it sounds like something a high school cheerleader would type. 'My friends and I always look our best, we have a great time and only go to cheer events for the fun of cheering, and make fun of those who just don't get it.'

But, I sincerely do agree with going to clubs for the purpose of listening to music, too many people treat clubs like the next one-night-stand aisle. But, unfortunately I don't see the point in going to a public place to dance to recorded music that (for the most part) I already own. Now I do love concerts, but I have always seen clubs as very pointless endeavours. 'I just payed 7 dollars for a drink so I can feel better about dancing with a bunch of sweaty people in a dark environment.'

And on another note, part of the greatness of a subculture is that when things in your life suck, but you don't want to think about them, you just complain about the varisou aspects of a sublculture that need improving.

Back to the topic at hand, I think there was a little misunderstanding in my earlier post, I am not saying I will quit 'being goth.' Goth is a fashion and music style that I greatly enjoy, I wouldn't let someone ruin it for me. I am saying I am going to stop trying to meet new people that are also into Goth. Mostly because the fact of the matter is that having interests in common is a nice foundation for friendships, but having personalities that mesh well together is far more important. I would rather just hope to bump into someone that has an awesome sense of humor to hang out with, than talk music with someone who keeps interupting me so they can make snide remarks about someone's fashion choices.

[Wormboy]

In real life, I know NO goths. NOT A ONE. All of my friends are metal heads, I have ONE friend who somewhat likes punk though avidly argued (and lost, I might add) with me about whether or not the Ramones were pop-punk sellouts. My girlfriend loves punk and goth. My mom LOVES Sisters of Mercy (she blasts it on the way to work EVERY day) but yeah, no goths. Even I'm not always goth. Somedays I'm truly a goth, heavy on the bondage look. Some days I'm a work a day metalhead looking fellow with a flopped over mohawk. Somedays I look almost like a tranny (not often, I can never find a good enough outfit). Somedays I'm particularly punk. Somedays I dress like a Rivethead. Some days I'm in a suit. I love Punk, Goth, Metal, and Manson ^_^ I don't like scenes much, they're all the same shit in different wrappers anyway. To the OP, if anyone gives you flack, simply tell them to stick a large, cumbersome, phallic device in the orifice of their choosing.

[KontanKarite]

I also don't go out of my way to meet people.

As far as meeting people goes, they come to me. When it comes to music, I know what I like. So, though you'll catch me listening to Lords of the New Church or The Damned at home, I WILL dance to some EBM. One of those reasons is because I'm dynamic. I have my preferences to electronica, but MOST of the time, they're not playing what I like. It doesn't mean I don't know how to have fun.

Cicero, however, though she's never gave me much reason to do so, is the type of person I don't really seek out at clubs. I can relate to those people on a music basis, but I'm pretty disappointed when that's the only reason they want to gel with me.

I too, am an elitist, but I don't like being around the elitist. They make me uncomfortable and they aren't very good company for the most part.

I'm always in the middle. I don't belittle the one that doesn't know who Peter Murphey is and likes to listen to HIM. If they want to empower themselves with a silly word like goth, let them. But I will share my musical tastes with you and I wont tell you that it's REAL goth music. Essentially, when it comes to making fans of the music, I take the poseurs and transmute them into actual fans of the genre and they unknowingly become goth.

[Kristin]

Thank you for reminding me of Peter Murphy. It's been so long since I've heard anything of his. I couldn't get enough of him in high school, but could never get ahold of any of his CDs. Now I'm going to go find him online...

</thread hijacking>

[Cicero]

I don't think you guys really understood what I meant there. Of course it sounds highschool-ish - people don't go to goth clubs to be mature and intellectual. In reality it's just a bunch of bored suburbanites getting drunk/drugged up/whatever and dancing like idiots to a musical style that hasn't changed in 30 years. It just so happens that we enjoy dancing/pogo-ing to said music (the place is airconditioned, so no sweaty people ), and so we make the best of all the lame idiocy by turning it into something we find humourous.

Also, I can assure you anyone who shows a fondness of the music is treated extremely well. We can't afford to scare away newcomers to such a small scene. If you know who Rozz Williams is you'll be greeted with open arms.

In real life none of it matters anyway. Outside clubs (which are only on a few nights a month) the only goths I interact with are my partner and a few other friends here and there.

[Raptor]

Agrees with all Kontans post.

I understand people aren't going to like all the music they hear in a club. But it seems pretty childish if they just stand around insulting people that don't like the same music as them or don't dress the same. I don't think anyone goes into a club and likes every single song thats played over the whole night.

I think Cicero would be one of the people that would totally ignore me in a club.

That said, I completely agree with:

Originally Posted by Cicero

It's just a group of people with similar taste in music and fashion, some are arseholes some are awesome, just like any other group of humans.

[Cicero]

I might also clarify that we don't insult people who dance to the music we disagree with - I'm talking Gwen Stefani and Marilyn Manson in a 'gothic rock' set - we just quietly laugh in the corner as they attempt to look cool for whomever they wish to fuck that night.

And Raptor, the only people I ignore at clubs are those who actually manage to creep me out (e.g. weird old men in blue jeans perving on the hawt goff chix). I'm guessing you're not one of those.

[Raptor]

Nope I'm not, but I do get ignored by some people. And I'm pretty sure that the reason (for some of them at least), is that I DO dance to Combichrist. I figured you'd be one of them from what you said before but I take it back if thats not the case.

Arg yeh people spending the whole night looking for someone to take home are annoying.

[Cicero]

That was semi-sarcasm, I'm just really not a fan of Combichrist >_<. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that if you fled the dancefloor the moment any tradgoth came on, THEN I'd think less of you.

And goddamnit, many sex-seekers don't even wait until they get home... There are couches in the 1334 cinema I'm never sitting on again.