Just because...

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Yeah, I thought linkbroken's comment was pretty damn asinine as well. I don't think he is at all representative of people's general attitudes.

The problem is, I've met people like that. So forgive me for assuming when no one said anything against *him* that this is how everyone feels.
I would LOVE to be wrong.

[Godslayer Jillian]

The thing is, you told him the same thing you've been telling us, when he's the only one to deserve such a response.
Basically what I'm saying is what has been said before: you're taking this too seriously.
You've been complaining about a certain group of people which not only we aren't, but we also see them as ridiculous. We just don't happen to see them as such a big deal.

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

The thing is, you told him the same thing you've been telling us, when he's the only one to deserve such a response.
Basically what I'm saying is what has been said before: you're taking this too seriously.
You've been complaining about a certain group of people which not only we aren't, but we also see them as ridiculous. We just don't happen to see them as such a big deal.

Well actually I first started complaining about the people that happened to be posting here, who were actively supported and engaged in conversations.
I also had a problem with Goth being a subculture that was JUST based upon music, which gives people like linkbroken a reason to be music nazis.
However, if you say that the majority of goths are not this shallow, I'll believe it.

[KontanKarite]

Not to be a jerk, Alissa, I like you a lot. But I'm glad you're wrong too.

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Not to be a jerk, Alissa, I like you a lot. But I'm glad you're wrong too.

Trust me, this would be one of the only times I want to be wrong.
So you're not really being a jerk, unless I'm missing something.

[biohazard]

Originally Posted by Memento Mori

Just because I said i'm a true goth and then didn't mention much about it doesn't mean I'm not. And just because I have an extreme love/ obbsession with My Chemical Romance and Gerard Way doesn't mean I'm not goth either. I'm very much into goth. And I know what goth is.

Goth isn't really explainable...that, to me, is like trying to explain God. (Btw, I don't believe in God, I'm just refering to something else that people find hard to explain.) Anyway the closest explaination I can come up with, without the aid of "The Goth Bible" is: Goth is a state of mind, and a way of expressing ones individuality. It's a lifestlye that embraces what the mundane shun and/or fear. It is like living, breathing darkness. It's not meant to harm or do wrong it's just a lifestlye. It sprung up from punk, but the original Goth goes back to the visigoths and ostrogoths (spelling?). It is a free spirited, dark, sorrow encumbering way of thinking and living.

That's all I've got right now. Because like I said I don't have "The Goth Bible" to reference from, even though I know all of that Nancy Kilpatrick just says it all better then I can.

Poser. The goth culture is derived from the music, and since you do not like any band that is defined as goth, you are not part of the subculture.

[MaverickZero]

Goth culture isn't just about music... I doubt anyone REALLY knows what it derived from in the first place.

I believe instead of trying to find out what goth IS, why not figure out what Goth ISN'T.

Then it can be broken down and found out that it's not really a culture at all, merely a group of individuals who share similar ideals and values.

Behavioural types that are closely related to one another, but vastly different from that of the generalized "norm" of blue collar society.

What came first? The Society or the Music? How can a culture be built off of something that wasn't made in it?

It really doesn't make sense to say, oh one day someone made goth music and thus goth was born.

No.

Ideas.

Ideas created it, and likeminded people. Philosophers and Well-Educated. Followers and Trailblazers.

Independant INDIVIDUALS, whom TOGETHER create a SOCIETY (Not a culture, because CULTURE is something you have no control over) where other like-minded individuals can feel comfortable and share themselves without fear of ridicule.

Goth is not a LABEL.

Goth is a sociological group.

The more people try to label themselves as it, the more they look foolish.

Point in tandem, Goth is a group of individuals, who share the same ideals. Those who aren't on the same level, that try to weed their way into the society because they need to "belong" to something, dilute the essence of the society a little bit more every time.

Nobody has to say that they are part of Goth society. Everyone should already know it, if they even are AT all.

Not because of the way they dress, or because they cut themselves, but their ideals, and common-grounds.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Goth culture isn't just about music... I doubt anyone REALLY knows what it derived from in the first place.


Then it can be broken down and found out that it's not really a culture at all, merely a group of individuals who share similar ideals and values.

Nobody has to say that they are part of Goth society. Everyone should already know it, if they even are AT all.

Not because of the way they dress, or because they cut themselves, but their ideals, and common-grounds.

I somewhat appreciate you spending time trying to figure this out, but I have to ask - do you spend much time at goth clubs, or interacting with goths in real life? Because the "shared mindset" theory really doesn't hold up.

I know goths who are into it because they never fit in anywhere else and it makes them feel special. I don't relate to that.

I know goths who are staunch republicans, and I don't relate to that.

I know goths who are devout pagans who take their study of the occult very seriously, and I definitely don't relate to that.

I know goths who consider their music interest secondary to their fashion/aesthetic interest, and I don't relate to that either.

I could go on, but you get my point.

And it's pretty well documented that goth came out of the Batcave club scene - that art punks and general wierdos started developing this distinctive fashion based off of bands like Specimen and Siouxsie and the Banshees, and that a variety of bands were either purposefully or incidentally pursuing darker, avante-garde approaches. I think that's a pretty solid explanation, although it's perhaps less romantic than a philosophical "meeting of the minds."

[MaverickZero]

That's my point,

The more that people get absorbed into the society, the more it dilutes and broadens what the society is.

It may have started out as a small club in the middle of nowhere, (popular culture wise), it may have started with Wicca, nobody is certain.

There are so many definitions and variations now, that it's impossible to trace exactly where it started. It is collectively, a collaberation of people with like-minded ideals, and it has spread outwards from there.

Like following a tree, the stump to the branches. Every new person in the society brings a different aspect while still retaining most of the ideals that initially attracted them to it.

It's living and breathing, and this is why it's so hard to pinpoint "what" goth is.

Since none of us have lived to see the dawn of it, nor have many people who have a better idea then we do, we will probably never know.

Like the United States was founded by a colony of settlers who didn't agree with being ruled under a single leader that was a sea away, the Goth society has evolved from something similar.

A group of individuals who had a different vision of society.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

It may have started out as a small club in the middle of nowhere, (popular culture wise), it may have started with Wicca, nobody is certain.

I'm pretty certain it didn't start with Wicca, that's for sure.

Like following a tree, the stump to the branches. Every new person in the society brings a different aspect while still retaining most of the ideals that initially attracted them to it.

It's living and breathing, and this is why it's so hard to pinpoint "what" goth is.

To use your own analogy - goth has some pretty deep and visible roots. We can figure out what soil the "tree" grew in and the climate that helped produce it, etc.

Since none of us have lived to see the dawn of it, nor have many people who have a better idea then we do, we will probably never know.

But what about all the music journalists, like Mick Mercer or Greg Fasolino, who *were* there to see the dawn of it and have documented their experiences? What about all the music magazines that were founded in the early days of the culture, all the band interviews talking about the club and live music scene? You're saying there's no way to piece together a fairly cohesive history despite all these sources?

[Graveyard.Crow]

How about digging deeper than that, to the roots of inspiration for the music itself.
I am pretty sure that's what he means.

[MaverickZero]

Exactly. We go by what is documented, when CLEARLY it goes further than that. No person alive can claim they know how it started, exactly.

Facts are also relative.

It may have been a hot music scene back in the day, but clearly it started earlier for there to be any inspiration towards it.

Whoever wrote these facts was being objective, which already discredits alot of the history behind it.

It goes far, far back. Sadly, that's all we know for sure.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

How about digging deeper than that, to the roots of inspiration for the music itself.
I am pretty sure that's what he means.

Well, there's the physical landscape of industrial towns like Leeds where the Sisters and various other bands are from.

There's the socioeconomic situation in the UK which created punk and the "no future" attitude, which post punk/goth responding to by envisioning a dystopian future.

There is the reign of Queen Victoria and the implementation of formal mourning procedures.

There are proto-punk/proto-goth bands like Nico and the Velvet Underground.

I think the origins of goth are only mystical if you haven't done your research.

[Draconysius]

Heh. Don't let labels use you, use them. It's not like they have any relevance in finding good times.

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Well, there's the physical landscape of industrial towns like Leeds where the Sisters and various other bands are from.

There's the socioeconomic situation in the UK which created punk and the "no future" attitude, which post punk/goth responding to by envisioning a dystopian future.

There is the reign of Queen Victoria and the implementation of formal mourning procedures.

There are proto-punk/proto-goth bands like Nico and the Velvet Underground.

I think the origins of goth are only mystical if you haven't done your research.

I have thank you.
I happen to like the older definition of Gothic better.

[MaverickZero]

Yet again Lucretia... make yourself look foolish.

I'm not saying look to Wikipedia to solve your problems.

Look what people aren't saying, look at behaviours and what caused them. There is more to everything that just what's on the surface, and more to everything than what people say to you.

It's not all about music, it's about mind-set.

If you are so fixated that it is music, and that's it. Period. It's pretty foolish. You may as well pick up a bible and start preaching Christ if you're that gullible.

Things don't happen overnight. It takes decades, for these things to become the scale they even were back then.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Yet again Lucretia... make yourself look foolish.

If you are so fixated that it is music, and that's it. Period. It's pretty foolish. You may as well pick up a bible and start preaching Christ if you're that gullible.

Foolish, because I gave specific examples to back my views, as opposed to your pure speculation? And I acknowledge that there is more to it than music, but I feel that music is the most prominent origin - I have no idea how that makes me gullible, considering that I can back that theory up with evidence, which you don't seem to be able to do.

Resorting to personal insults rather than supporting your argument actually makes *you* look foolish, but I'm sure you won't believe me and will just reiterate what a gullible fool I am. So fine, if you think I'm stupid I can live with that, considering that it's just yet another one of your unsupported opinions.

[MaverickZero]

I gave support to it. You are just ignorant to the fact that I had a valid point, you keep making excuses and timelines.

It dates back further than what you claim it.

There has to be inspiration for an idea to be born.

Give me a fact that music was the reason as to why it's the MOST important aspect and not beliefs.

You support your opinion by beating the same nail.

It's disproven. It dates back further than what we know, why do I say this? Because there simply is no one answer for it.

If there was ONE answer as to WHAT goth society is, it would be common knowledge.

It's ignorant to think that because one person wrote, whom was obviously bias, is the sole factoring opinion of an entire society.

Please.

I retorted in insult, because you're resulting back to you're futile attempts to prove a point that doesn't have a platform to stand on.

I don't really care what X or Y person said started it. That is their opinion. I don't claim to know what started it either. I am guessing it started as a seed and blossomed into what it is today. Which is a plausible reason.

I just find it ridiculous that you actually believe that a society could be built around music solely. It's the ideals behind the music that even make the music have meaning. Why you're arguing that, I'm at a loss to.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

I just find it ridiculous that you actually believe that a society could be built around music solely. It's the ideals behind the music that even make the music have meaning. Why you're arguing that, I'm at a loss to.

So, you're saying that punk could exist on anti-establishment views alone, sans the actual music? Certainly both the views *and* the music must exist for there to be a subculture based around it. I'm not denying that goth music was influenced by history, architecture, philosophy, etc.; only that if there was no goth music, there'd be no goth subculture, and that goth history equals music history.

Give me a fact that music was the reason as to why it's the MOST important aspect and not beliefs.

Because there were goth bands playing before goth was even a widespread label, and before the scene was cohesive enough to have any established set of common beliefs. There was no "Goth Manifesto" to unite the scene; it was the bands and clubs that gave gothy types a place to go and find others, and only after that infastructure was in place could any sort of "goth beliefs" exist.

[MaverickZero]

The NATURE of punk is anti-establishment. That is what it's based off of. An idea. It's not basing a culture or society off of a musical genre.

The ONLY thing that Music genres have any relevance to, are Musicians. Wow, go figure.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

The NATURE of punk is anti-establishment. That is what it's based off of.

Really? And who told you that? *sits back and waits for the irony to sink in*

Look, this thing has been beaten to death all over this forum, and a dissenting view has been generally agreed on by most people. If you can't find those old threads - which at this point here is based on some thorough research - then that's your problem, and no amount of petty insulting is going to make you right.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

The ONLY thing that Music genres have any relevance to, are Musicians. Wow, go figure.

Ok, so clearly you are not a record collector. That explains a lot.

Keep whatever definition of goth works for you. Am I right to suspect that you're not big on the club scene? Well, if you ever are, I suspect this whole thing will get worked out then anyway, so I'm not going to waste any more of my time.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by biohazard

Poser. The goth culture is derived from the music, and since you do not like any band that is defined as goth, you are not part of the subculture.

You sound like some little bitch with her babydoll that won't let the kids who aren't cool into her clubhouse.

[Draconysius]

I wish you people would start arguing about something that matters, not whether you fit in a clique.

[MaverickZero]

Lucretia, you're arguing the popularization of Goth, the origins go back to the 1700's which was the inspiration behind the style. Fascination behind the whole architecture, stories and the likes, led to the ideology behind Goth today.

Goth culture may have been popular since the mid 70s, however the inspiration came from something that began centuries ago.

I'm not arguing whether people fit in, or what defines who, I'm just stating that Music is not the beginning of "Goth". It popularized and brought it into the spotlight, hence why it's prevailent today.

The dark music of certain bands in the mid-late 70s, led to an association with the Gothic culture of the 1700s.

Without the inspiration of the early culture, there wouldn't be a "Goth" culture, simply another shade of Punk.