Proof: the police are not here to protect us

[The Donor]

Originally Posted by JCC

A compassionate community should do all of the things that police do and more; they just do it with big sticks.

It's a shame we don't live in a compassionate community.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by The Donor

There was no fear in that. I mean, actually think about how shit things would be without some kind of authority. Theft and violent crimes would spiral out of control. That is not something I'd like to see. More power to the authority I say.

Is that based on anything? It seems I actually got it right and you're merely scared.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Alarica

There is no possible excuse they can have for what they did.

No, you don't understand. He was disrespecting their dominance with that slumped shoulder, turned back stuff. Passive resisting motherfucker even had his hands in his pockets. That's the human equivalent of when a cat yawns. It's universal language for "I don't acknowledge the threat you pose". The officers really had no choice, here. It's like when your woman doesn't get your beer fast enough and you have to take your eyes off the game for several seconds to shout at her, in front of your friends and everything. You need to bust her lip or it starts to turn into a pattern.

Seriously, though. I can pretty much promise you that's exactly what happened there. It's a well understood phenomenon. Our closest relative is the chimpanzee, after all. When chimps feel like they're getting disrespected, they start ripping testicles off. You put a young male human in a the position a police officer or soldier is in, and it's going to happen. But we can't live without police officers or soldiers, because the entire order of human civilization is predicated upon the threat of violence.

Don't worry, though. If you think about it for a bit you'll realize why it has to be that way. We need to have people who use violence unless we do what they say, because otherwise we could end up having people who use violence unless we do what they say. Remember?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by JCC

It will be interesting to see how the IPCC brushes this under the carpet.

I'm sure they'll make a big point out of how the guy in the video identified himself.

[Malice In Wonderland]

Originally Posted by The Donor

It's a shame we don't live in a compassionate community.

It's a shame the people that are meant to be looking after our non compassionate society are also non compassionate.
Fuck do I know if "non compassionate" is the right term.

[The Donor]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Is that based on anything? It seems I actually got it right and you're merely scared.

Maybe I'm scared for my grandparents or the children I see in the street, the people who would be easy targets in a world of shit. Or maybe to save the arguement you are right Godslayer, just like you always are.

[pantherace]

It goes on a lot. The Drug War Chronicles has weekly police brutality reports. There are countless stories of police using the no knock policy as they bust into the wrong houses and kill people who think they are being robbed. Or just start shooting as they go after some kid with a little bit of weed.

A large amount of police from my home state of NM recently got busted on corruption charges. Took ages, I grew up having the police "break up" our parties and confiscate drugs but not have any written records...so basically they were just taking our drugs for themselves. Every time I think not all police might not be so bad, they do something worse that drives me back to saying "fuck the pigs".

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by The Donor

Maybe I'm scared for my grandparents or the children I see in the street, the people who would be easy targets in a world of shit. Or maybe to save the arguement you are right Godslayer, just like you always are.

See? Again, you're just saying bullshit. You're not actually making an argument.
Is it fear or ignorance?

[CrimsonPythonidae]

See? Again, you're just saying bullshit. You're not actually making an argument.
Is it fear or ignorance?

No, he admitted it may be fear. Fear is basically a survival instinct, and what's wrong with being afraid for the innocent if not ourselves? I don't think, from what I've seen, lived, read, heard etc that our Australian (or Western Australian to be more specific) Police are as bad as everyone else's. Obviously, like everywhere else, we have our problems, our corrupt cops and police brutality and it's shithouse, it should not be an issue. Fact of the matter is you are always going to have corrupt, greedy, nutcase people. We do not live in a perfect "compassionate" society where everyone can judge for themselves what is wrong or right and everyone has food and a warm place to sleep. The picture is bigger.

Violent police is not something we should have, it should not be tolerated at all, when they show unprovoked violence they should be dealt with appropriately. We're better off having (and doing our best to deal with) a few corrupt cops among mostly good ones than having none at all.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by JCC

A compassionate community should do all of the things that police do and more; they just do it with big sticks.

The problem with that is that justice is subjective, and many people who frequent this board would be in danger, just look at the Sophie Lancaster case.

[Delkaetre]

An update to this.
Mr Tomlinson, the fellow who died at the G20 protest, was initially claimed to have died of a heart attack.
There's been a fresh post-mortem. It wasn't a heart attack, it was abdominal bleeding- haemorrhage.

A charge of murder seems so much more reasonable. They beat him up on his way home to his wife and kids, and he died of internal bleeding before he even got out of the protest area.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm

Also of note, a lot of people have been coming forward with their own photos and videos depicting this and many other acts of violence by the police toward the protesters. We have all the evidence you could possibly want short of DNA to be able to point at the police force, label them for the thugs they so often are, and demand a complete restructure.
I don't object to a police force within Britain, in theory. They can be useful- they can have special training and equipment to catch the violently insane, rapists, etc, and they can be figures of reassurance and authority to help us and give us directions when we're lost. Since they seem to have forgotten these roles, though, sod em.

[Raptor]

I'm sure it will be manslaughter if anything, not murder.

If you don't object to a police force, isn't this just as things should be? Police do something wrong, get investigated, then hopefully punished. It's not like that guy was hired to hit an innocent man and kill him.

[Delkaetre]

Raptor - no, this is sodding well not how it should be. He stepped way over his bounds, the whole damn force that day did.
Instead of cautions and maybe a manslaughter charge or two, they should be getting the toughest possible sentencing. The police should, if they are to be trusted with any kind of authority, be exemplary citizens. A well kept temper, even handed and impartial, intelligent, loyal to the community over the corporation. Because otherwise they are not the people's police, and do not serve the people whose taxes pay for them.
I don't really mind the idea of police as long as they are a group of the best the community has, here to protect and serve the community. Make it a noble profession, one to (as in previous post) guide the lost, look after the defenceless, and locate those who really do threaten others. A chance, as with doctors and teachers, to improve the lives of others in one way or another. Not the current thugs-with-handcuffs-and-big-sticks profession.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Not the current thugs-with-handcuffs-and-big-sticks profession.

If that's about the whole force, then that really isn't my experience at all.

As for toughest possible sentencing, being charged with manslaughter (and perhaps assault too) would be doing just that? I don't think intent to kill is on that video, so I'd be very surprised if he was found guilty or even charged with murder. Of course I'll agree with you if he gets away with it.

[Delkaetre]

There are serious double standards for the police.
Toughest possible sentencing- actually, he could be done for murder. If you assault someone, only intending ABH/GBH and they end up dead because of some kind of medical condition you didn't know of, it does count as murder. The intent to cause harm was there, and from the footage we can be damn sure that the police officer in question really did intend to cause harm. The law is wonderfully flexible on that, according to the criminal law books I got to read in my first year of uni.

If you consider the guys who broke into RBS, they've already been up in court. But the officers who've been caught on camera attacking protestors have, at best, been suspended pending formal investigation. If a non-police citizen was caught making such a violent attack, they'd be arrested and held in custody.
The police can and do make every effort to withold evidence, as shown by their clear and deliberate pattern of lies and misrepresentation so far in the Tomlinson case, and at Hillsborough, and at almost every other incident of violence during supposed 'crowd control'.

There is a long running tradition of poor and violent crowd control in the UK. We may not bring out the rubber bullets and CS gas *quite* as readily as other countries, but there are no excuses for the kind of thuggery we see. And please, don't try to cite the job being stressful. Of course the job is stressful, it's bloody obvious it's stressful, and if they can't keep their tempers during the normal course of their job then they shouldn't be doing it.

Though.... I'll cede you this. Perhaps the police aren't always just handcuffs and big sticks. Sometime they're not even that, they're just plain disinterested. The rate of **** investigation in this country is abysmal, theft gets ignored if they don't think it'll be an easy case. Example- unless something is taken from you with force, they will not treat it as theft- they will insist you must have lost it. They will not check the CCTV. It is their job to investigate these things, but they just won't.

[Raptor]

I'm not going to argue that the crowd control stuff can be messed up. And I don't know enough about law to say what his actions should fall under. I was never trying to justify his actions anyway.

And while there are lazy police, again the reality isn't that the entire force consists of over zealous riot police and people that do nothing to help anyone.

[Delkaetre]

You've heard of the 'significant minority'.
It is a significant minority of government ministers that abuse the expenses and allowances of their position.
It is a significant minority of medical malpractice lawyers that pursue frivolous lawsuits that drain the NHS.
It is a significant minority of NHS wards with officially unacceptable levels of contamination, MRSA and general dirt.
There are people in these professions who genuinely want to help and entered the profession in order to do so. But the significant minority of bad cases shows that reform is needed. In high school, my best friend's father was a police man. There are people in the police who want to help. But whatever good example they may be trying to set is not and never will be enough to counteract all the bad examples out there. Reform and improvement is needed, desperately.
Because otherwise we will continue having the numbers of lazy or violent police we have now.

[Raptor]

I still choose not to label them like that all the same. I think this is just a case of how we speak. Or of how we look at things, MRSA for example doesn't give me a bad opinion of medical staff in general. In terms of improvements, I think we're on the same page.