Am I being insensitive?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

Desp - I know, right? He clearly wasn't thinking. Maybe he's a pathological liar, or something? That's just so obviously hard to falsify that it doesn't make sense to say.

Which leads me to believe that the guy has mental problems and probably shouldn't have been in the military to begin with.

Man if we had a social safety net/non-prison civilian-institution type work program you wouldn't have to deal with so many oxygen thieves like him watching your back.

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I completely agree. That's why I'm not saying Versus is a bad person, but he IS a killer.

Oh, okay. I thought you were about to say that. Glad that got cut off before it started.

[AshleyO]

I like Versus.

[Ben Lahnger]

It's an all volunteer army. Dude signed up of his own accord, then found he couldn't hack it. Good thing he figured it out, and good for him for finding a way out of there. Then he should have just owned the mistake. Or made an unoffensive cover story like the military ran some medical tests and discharged him over some medical condition. Then get on with things.

But dude shouldn't have used that "I was with those heroes in that truck" lie. It's not right. It can't stand. And I'm not feeling sympathetic because dude didn't pick that lie for good cover; he picked it to bathe in undeserved glory.

And I'm unconvinced the truth will come out unless someone makes it come out. People like that get away with lies like that all the time. Saying "the truth will come out eventually anyway" doesn't make it so. Let's be realistic about that.

[Fruitbat]

Versus - I have to agree with Desp. Unless the guy says he's going to knock himself off all the time as an attention seeking thing, then you have to assume he's serious.

If everyone knows then he's stuffed. He will have lost a lot of respect amongst his fellow troops.

It's disgusting, the whole idea that he'd claim something like that. I hate people like that.

Ashley - it sounds like the guy was shitting himself at the thought that he could have been on that truck and it could have been him that who was wounded/killed. That is a major slap in the face and something people have to overcome in those situations, and not everyone can overcome it. It's not a matter of being a killer, it's facing your own mortality that's the hard thing.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

And I'm unconvinced the truth will come out unless someone makes it come out. People like that get away with lies like that all the time. Saying "the truth will come out eventually anyway" doesn't make it so. Let's be realistic about that.

It already came out. And like Desp said, not having any injuries or a Purple Heart or anything would tip anyone off.

And more soldiers die from suicide than they do from combat, its something they have to be super careful about and take very seriously.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

So those pictures of you toting guns and such is no indication that you actually use them? Thanks for your service, but you ARE a state funded professional killer. That is the job of a service person in arms. I don't mean to offend, but it's not like you're out there spreading good will with a gun.

Originally Posted by Versus

The military is comprised mostly of people that are given far too much recognition. 1/32 airmen, 1/16 seamen, and 4/10 marines/soldiers even have a job related to combat. A far smaller number actually experience it. Common perception is that everybody in the military is some kind of hard ass that blows stuff up for a living and is severely emotionally scared from the experience. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know what, exactly, perpetuates it, but it's a load of horse shit for the guy who pumps gas or the girl who plays the trumpet to be approached by people at the airport that want to thank them for their "service."

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showth...+Jump&page=230

I wasn't talking about myself, though. The guy hasn't even been in the army for a full year and is practically still sweating basic training water. He's never deployed before and my boots have more time in service then he does. He's hardly what I would call a killer, you know?

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Because it makes more sense to assume that he's a pathological liar, which would imply that he has some form of mental problems if it's beyond him to ever tell the truth.

I'm just trying to rationalize his behavior. I haven't formed a concrete idea of why he did it.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Versus

I wasn't talking about myself, though. The guy hasn't even been in the army for a full year and is practically still sweating basic training water. He's never deployed before and my boots have more time in service then he does. He's hardly what I would call a killer, you know?

I understand. But he was trained to be a killer and he clearly reached the event horizon that proved that he didn't have what it took to be a killer. Would "warrior" make this a softer conversation?

I'm just trying to rationalize his behavior. I haven't formed a concrete idea of why he did it.

Aye, I see you on that. Tell me, Versus. If someone doesn't have what it takes to be a warrior... how easy is it for them to just own up to it and the military let them go? To be honest, I would say that the most honorable thing for him to have ever done was to simply tell the truth. Mention that he discovered that he didn't have it in him to be a warrior and that luckily there are some that do. Problem is, admitting to that can make you look weak or less of a man. You could almost understand why he would lie about it and I could understand why it'd be frustrating to have to deal with that lie on both parties.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I understand. But he was trained to be a killer and he clearly reached the event horizon that proved that he didn't have what it took to be a killer. Would "warrior" make this a softer conversation?

I want to say it's semantics, but it's really not in this case. I don't want to re-enlist again because I don't think 20 years as a scout is really realiable to secure my retirement. Aside from the small chance of being wounded in combat, there's the inherent danger of being injured like any other job that requires a high degree of physical labor. I've only been in the army for 4 years and my contract expires at the end of 2013, but I'm lucky to only have lost an inch in height and some of my hearing. Suppose I really get hurt? I don't have any education or trade skills to fall back on, and the work experience I've gained before and during my time in the army is hardly anything to depend on to secure another job. Based on that alone and without mentioning all the other impacts it's made on my life, I've determined I don't have what it takes to do this for much longer. Does that mean I've reached the same point as him? I want to say "no."

I have to ask, do you mean killer as a general term for being a soldier? Or a service member? That's what I'm bothered by. I don't feel like it's derrogative because you're right. It's just wholey inaccurate when used to describe the military in general, and that's where I take issue.

Aye, I see you on that. Tell me, Versus. If someone doesn't have what it takes to be a warrior... how easy is it for them to just own up to it and the military let them go? To be honest, I would say that the most honorable thing for him to have ever done was to simply tell the truth. Mention that he discovered that he didn't have it in him to be a warrior and that luckily there are some that do. Problem is, admitting to that can make you look weak or less of a man. You could almost understand why he would lie about it and I could understand why it'd be frustrating to have to deal with that lie on both parties.

I feel that Ben Lahnger said it best:

It's an all volunteer army. Dude signed up of his own accord, then found he couldn't hack it. Good thing he figured it out, and good for him for finding a way out of there. Then he should have just owned the mistake. Or made an unoffensive cover story like the military ran some medical tests and discharged him over some medical condition. Then get on with things.

But dude shouldn't have used that "I was with those heroes in that truck" lie. It's not right. It can't stand. And I'm not feeling sympathetic because dude didn't pick that lie for good cover; he picked it to bathe in undeserved glory.

But honestly, the most honorable thing he could have done was do what everyone else does: Do his time and get out. It's wrong to take from the the military's time and money, to recieve so many benefits, only to turn your back when it's time to actually earn it all.

[Grausamkeit]

Isn't there a way for people to opt out with a dishonorable discharge? Why didn't he just do that?

[Murder.Of.Crows]

If you take the dishonorable discharge, good luck finding a job anywhere. I mean that goes on your personal record for life, and it is a stain worse than lousy credit or a small amount of jail time. Getting out on suicidal behavior is a Medical discharge, which is about as descriptive as the word medical.

[Saya]

I thought they'd put in you in jail if you decide you don't want to deploy, but you're in contract.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

If you go AWOL it is punishable by prison. But you can opt out of a deployment, by talking your way out of it, but this means a discharge as well. I think if you refuse outright, it is a court marshal and two years. Not sure though.

[Fruitbat]

It sounds to me like the guy was shitting himself at the thought of deployment, couldn't face the alternatives to not deploying, so decided to get out the way he did, where he saves a little face with his fiance, but will loose a lot of face with his buddies, but at the end of the day he's not planning on spending the rest of his life with the guys in his squad (if that makes sense?)

It's easy enough for me to be sitting in my comfortable lounge and type that he's a weak minded individiual but I'd probably be shitting myself too if I had trouble with basic training and then went out on deployment. To some people it would be a massive shock to the system.

Saya As you know, there are a heck of a lot of ex-servicemen who are walking around with PTSD and other mental illness trauma caused/induced by their years of service. It's not just losing a part of your body that makes you unfit for duty.

[AshleyO]

I agree with Fruitbat.

[Versus]

AWOL during a time of war can be punished with death. Anything before that, as with everything else, is each commander's discretion. I've seen people leave and get kicked out for a lot of reasons, and it really depends on what your boss wants to do.

As an example, my medic slept with a girl while he was in Iraq. He found out that she was married and tried to get out of it, so she said that he ***** her. He got court-martialed, demoted, and 90 days confinement. She only got 30 days of extra duty. They were charged with the same thing.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Yeah but how many people get put to death for going AWOL any more? Also, well as far as the Navy is concerned, we are not in a time of war, we are merely in a "police action".

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Versus

AWOL during a time of war can be punished with death. Anything before that, as with everything else, is each commander's discretion. I've seen people leave and get kicked out for a lot of reasons, and it really depends on what your boss wants to do.

Yeah and it always comes down to a popularity contest of sorts.

Originally Posted by Versus

As an example, my medic slept with a girl while he was in Iraq. He found out that she was married and tried to get out of it, so she said that he ***** her. He got court-martialed, demoted, and 90 days confinement. She only got 30 days of extra duty. They were charged with the same thing.

Unbelievable that there could be such a discrimination in the punishment, if they were both willing in the first place.

not that I'm supporting the idea that she should receive the same punishment if she was graped but it's a prime example of where clear communication before the event is important.

Or do you folks get charged with adultry in the armed services?

[Murder.Of.Crows]

yeah, we can.

[Versus]

It doesn't happen often, no. I'm just saying that it's maximum punishment is death, so literally everything in between that and nothing is up to the individual's commander. It's not a specific punishment, regardless of branch. The UCMJ applies to them all.

More commonly, it's a called a declination of service. People usually make one when they come down with orders to move to a duty station that requires an extention of their contract. More likely, you'll just get kicked out. It's not like the military throws you in prison for stupid shit like that.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Yeah and it always comes down to a popularity contest of sorts.



Unbelievable that there could be such a discrimination in the punishment, if they were both willing in the first place.

not that I'm supporting the idea that she should receive the same punishment if she was graped but it's a prime example of where clear communication before the event is important.

Or do you folks get charged with adultry in the armed services?

Except that he didnt't **** her. They were both charged with adultry, except his punishment was worse. I mention it because it's an example of how lose the system can be.

[Ben Lahnger]

As I posted in Spooky News, there were competing news stories from about the same time of one civilian getting 15 years in prison for stealing $100 where he returned the money and surrendered to police voluntarily the next day, while another civilian swindles a bunch of people out of millions of dollars with no remorse and he gets 40 months in prison. So, the system is loose, as you put it, everywhere.

[Catch]

Society is just inclined to reward people who do really well.

[Versus]

So a slight on the side: Another guy said he wanted to hurt himself and some of the others. He's different, though. We all know he's just being a bigger piece of shit then normal and is trying to leave by cheating the system.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Versus

Except that he didnt't **** her. They were both charged with adultry, except his punishment was worse. I mention it because it's an example of how lose the system can be.

Far out. Okay now that makes sense why she cried **** (which is totally wrong) - so she wouldn't be charged with adultry/ cop a more extensive sentence....

.... but hang on, if two consenting adults have sex, regardless if one or both are married to other people, how the hell does anyone else know about it? And why should anyone else (i.e. the US military) care?