Intelligent Design vs. Evolution

[Blushing Heliophobe]

Okay, Peter, show prove me wrong, scientifically and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does not exist.

Everyone has a right to believe whatever they choose, and in posing this question I in no way seek to demean anyone for their beliefs, and far from it.

It's just that if you claim logic as your reason, how can you claim that one's faith in God, or lack of faith in God, logicly makes Him exist or not exist?

And anyways, I do agree that even though I believe in ID, it does seem somewhat...weird...teaching all these different theories in a biology class.

Who's to say that I don't believe that aliens dropped us out of the sky onto planet Earth, and just because the Evolutionists and Christians have their say means I should have mine on the taxpayer's dollar as well?

As a believer in Creation, honestly, I'd just be happy if there were more up to date textbooks that don't include blatant hoaxes and mistakes - oh I forgot one earlier, like the peppered moth example that was also uncovered as a hoax. It seems a shame to me that we would be teaching these things when we know they are not true.

It does seem to be playing with fire to be introducing so much theology into biology class...

[edible_eye]

the other day, i was taking care of a drunk and he told me the following... hold onto your hats, cuz this is rather shocking... (really bad pun)

"lightning, man. it was one bolt of fuckin' lightning that started all this shit. you got all those germs runnin' around and WHAM! one bolt of lightning made 'em crazy and here we are. holy fuck."

so, there you are. for all you know-it-alls who provide such in-depth and well thought out explanations about life and its genesis - ya'all missed the boat.

[Blushing Heliophobe]

I extend my most humble apologies for overkill of the definition thing, but I couldn't help myself. Here is what a theory is...

As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning.

So if someone had an idea, no matter how unpopular in any type of social circle, and had evidence, correlations with various proven natural laws, etc to back it up, then it would then be a theory.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

Okay, Peter, show prove me wrong, scientifically and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does not exist.

Prove you wrong scientifically?, scientifically I can't, you can't prove a negative in science, you can only prove a positive that would rule out a negative.

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

Everyone has a right to believe whatever they choose, and in posing this question I in no way seek to demean anyone for their beliefs, and far from it.

No do I, however, logically god does not exist, let alone God. Faith is not a logical proposition, "believe this unproven thing" is illogical captain.

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

It's just that if you claim logic as your reason, how can you claim that one's faith in God, or lack of faith in God, logicly makes Him exist or not exist?

I don't, logically He doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

And anyways, I do agree that even though I believe in ID, it does seem somewhat...weird...teaching all these different theories in a biology class.

Who's to say that I don't believe that aliens dropped us out of the sky onto planet Earth, and just because the Evolutionists and Christians have their say means I should have mine on the taxpayer's dollar as well?

As a believer in Creation, honestly, I'd just be happy if there were more up to date textbooks that don't include blatant hoaxes and mistakes - oh I forgot one earlier, like the peppered moth example that was also uncovered as a hoax. It seems a shame to me that we would be teaching these things when we know they are not true.

It does seem to be playing with fire to be introducing so much theology into biology class...

Well, biology should probably be taught in biology, even if you accept that ID is a theory (technically, it's a supposition) it certainly isn't a scientific one, and shouldn't be taught in a science class. Creationism doesn't even pretend to be a theory, that's plain belief.

[Disfunction]

It's a darn shame that the word theory is so ambiguous, so people not very firmly aquainted with science will can ID a theory using one definition and compare it with another theory which uses an entirely different definition.

Besides, intelligent design is just one of the potential alternatives. I think each and every one of you should contemplate the validity of the following: http://www.venganza.org/ It changed my life.

[Blushing Heliophobe]

Alright, this is becoming a new flesh out of an age old debate...my last thoughts on what you bring up, Peter, is that either way, everything you believe in life in one way or another depends on faith. As far as proving positives and negatives and all that mess goes, evolution isn't proven and always has had many gaps and flaws - therefore, you have to have faith in it to believe in it. No one has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt how everything started, Evolutionists or Creationists...

As far as the whole 'logic' thing goes, you may believe that, logically, God doesn't exist. But isn't it logical to assume that if you don't, as a human being, know everything, that the absolute confirmation or negation of a higher power/superior being may be included in the part you don't know?

Just a thought...

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Besides, intelligent design is just one of the potential alternatives. I think each and every one of you should contemplate the validity of the following: http://www.venganza.org/ It changed my life.

Thanks, but grazing goes against my nature. If I weren't allowed to kill and eat fluffy, furry animals then I'd have to start taking out my fellow upright green tea swiling tofu eating emo listening...who'm I kidding?

It's all on the menu, and it's all good!!!

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by TStone

Thanks, but grazing goes against my nature. If I weren't allowed to kill and eat fluffy, furry animals then I'd have to start taking out my fellow upright green tea swiling tofu eating emo listening...who'm I kidding?

It's all on the menu, and it's all good!!!

Oh Tom... I'm disappointed in you. If I were trying to convert people to vegetarianism I'd do it with a gun to their head. At least check out the link before you judge it by the name of the link itself.

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Oh Tom... I'm disappointed in you. If I were trying to convert people to vegetarianism I'd do it with a gun to their head. At least check out the link before you judge it by the name of the link itself.

HAHA, I'm so fucking stupid lol. I don't know why I saw that as vegan when it's clearly says venganza?

I'm joining by the way :}

[soggypicklemuncher]

Dude...that's really funny. Venganza -- vegan Heh. I was vegan for a while, from partway into seventh grade until the summer before ninth grade started. Then I started eating dairy again and now I eat fish sometimes. I'm such a poseur vegetarian : P

I think emo kids are fucking dumbassess, though. They don't really have anything to be depressed about, but that's boring and uncool so they scratch up their wrists with safety pins and threaten to kill themselves.

I just couldn't stop thinking about how much animals suffer to produce the foods we eat and the thought of eating something like that made me feel sick. I don't judge people for eating meat, but I wish consumers would start demanding that the producers treat the animals better.

Yeah, I reread parts of Fast Food Nation not too long ago. O.O;

[Loy]

Blushing-just for clarification purposes

1-as far as the wrong information in textbooks, it boils down to one word-economics.

Here's how it goes-most textbook makers want to sell their textbooks to as many people as possible. The problem with this is that you always have one group or another who'll complain about the content of the books. The most vocal of these whining dumbfucks for the past (at least) 40 years have been the Christian right. Now, with them, their complaining has gone from the "whining like a little bitch" phase to the "straight-out boycott" phase. (this has been done via members of such groups joining local school boards, and "influencing" which books to purchase). So, textbook publishers made a deal and, before publishing anything (remember, science isn't the only subject that's become politicised), they go to the Grables (I think that's their name. I'm gonna go back and check up on this), an old couple from Texas who runs one of these organisations.

What this has done is left all information about evolution up-to-date....from about 1959. That's right, over 40 years worth of reaserch has never made it into a textbook for fear of "offending their sensibilities".

Now, why wouldn't schools go to other textbook publishers (ones with books that have correct information)? Simple-schools don't have much money to spend (something that becomes more and more true with every Republican who becomes president). They just can't do it.

As far as your statement on what "theory" is? I....hold on....

*cackles loudly*

Now, whilst I can call you on your loose usage of semantics, I think your statement (and numerous others) should be left to stand....it's bound to provide many hours of laughter for anybody with a reading comprehension higher than a third grader (I'm speaking of a Bush-era third grader, not a Clinton-era one)

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

Alright, this is becoming a new flesh out of an age old debate...my last thoughts on what you bring up, Peter, is that either way, everything you believe in life in one way or another depends on faith. As far as proving positives and negatives and all that mess goes, evolution isn't proven and always has had many gaps and flaws - therefore, you have to have faith in it to believe in it. No one has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt how everything started, Evolutionists or Creationists...

Ahh, but there's faith and then there's faith isn't there?, faith in something based on evidence, like I have faith in, say, gravity, this isn't the same sort of faith that you have, say, in God. Evolution is proven, there is so much quantifiable evidence available it isn't funny. Things evolve, it happens. Heck, you can even see this for yourself if you've got a decade or two to spare you could probably change the environment of a plant long enough so that it can no longer be fertilised by its "ancestor". On the other hand, that all evolution is caused by the same thing is utterly unproven and very probably not true. In my opinion, it's most likely a combination of stuff like the theory of natural selection and the selfish gene.

However, the gaps and stuff aren't actually in evolution itself, evolution is an observable process, the gaps are in the theory of how evolution works. Much like there are gaps in the theory of how gravity works, but this doesn't mean gravity is under question.

The faith people have in various theories of evoulution is exactly that, they won't believe it if a better theory comes along since the faith is only in a scientific theory, adaptable if better information comes along. It is true that no-one has proven (certainly not the creationists, who merely use supposition, that's not even trying) how it all began, but the theories of evolution don't even attempt to ask that question, all they do is try to understand the mechanics of evolution. The one that tries to explain how it all began is the big bang theory, and there's a lot of evidence for a zero-energy big bang.

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

As far as the whole 'logic' thing goes, you may believe that, logically, God doesn't exist. But isn't it logical to assume that if you don't, as a human being, know everything, that the absolute confirmation or negation of a higher power/superior being may be included in the part you don't know?

Just a thought...

Just logic is fine. It would be completely illogical to think that an impossible being is there you just haven't seen it yet.

However, the only reason you're concernaed about this is because you see it as an attack, I mean, the guy who came up with this talking point certainly believed that his God was the one true God and all those other Slim Shady's were just imitatin' and he didn't have all the knowledge of the universe. You, nor I, need to drop every object at every point on every celestial object to know that gravity exists.

Scientists still believe in God though, don't they?, well, no, but a large proportion of them do. How can scientists who work with logic and natural law believe in something like God?

Easy, God is beyond the natural world, God is supernatural, not part of the natural world, above logic, how else could you create the universe without being part of it? How else can something be all powerful, and then make an object too heavy for Him to lift? Scientists are pretty smart, so religious faith isn't something only stupid people have by any stretch of the imagination, the very thing about religious faith is that if you need proof you aren't a true believer. And also if you're a true believer it doesn't matter if you have all the knowledge in the world or not, there's no way God isn't real.

Well, except He doesn't exist, but that's where opinion differs :P

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by TStone

HAHA, I'm so fucking stupid lol. I don't know why I saw that as vegan when it's clearly says venganza?

I'm joining by the way :}

I'm really happy, Tom. Our numbers are strong, and growing stronger everyday. With your verbal eloquence, we'll surely turn a few more to our cause.

[Black Gestalt]

Huh, yeah, it's very hard to really make any argument about it all if you think about it. Unless your completely ignorant, and then, well, it all makes perfect sense.

[soggypicklemuncher]

Since private messaging is disabled ...

Black Gestalt, that's Chinese in your sig, isn't it? I tried a couple of online translators but they just spat back the text I entered as the translation. I guess they expect the input to actually be a Chinese character, not a Romanization.

Anyway, what's it say?

[Black Gestalt]

Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher

Since private messaging is disabled ...

Black Gestalt, that's Chinese in your sig, isn't it? I tried a couple of online translators but they just spat back the text I entered as the translation. I guess they expect the input to actually be a Chinese character, not a Romanization.

Anyway, what's it say?

It says "my name is Ari"

Ni hao! Zhongwen shi yi ge da pizi wen. Ni yingai xue yidian.

You just reminded me I have chinese homework. Erg.

[soggypicklemuncher]

I seem to remember that when my name (Audrey) was tranferred to kanji that fit the pronunciation they turned out to be "very deep" and "orchid." I can't help having a dirty mind and wanting to make a joke about that...

[Greqoh]

OK, I admit that there are major gaps in the evolution theory.
Despite all the evidence, it is still only a theory.

But it at least is supported by some evidence, although it has some minor flaws.

The evidence to back up Christianity...Judaism...Islam ect...is no where near as solid.

If people were to investigate the bible with the same attention which they use to disprove evolution, the book would be placed in the fiction section.

The story of Genesis is an almost exact copy of the Summerian religion, it came from. It is chilling that anyone would want to teach our children these things.

Jesus is a character, with no factual documentation outside of the bible.
No historians give an independent account of him, though we are told he was known all around the world.

He is combination of the Egyptian gods Osiris and Horus...and this is not faith or opinion. It is fact, if you only examine the evidence.

Go to www.truthbeknown.com

Make up your own mind, based on evidence, not faith.
Faith is mind control. What is Faith when you can have fac?...It is cowardice, and nothing more.

Believe in yourself, it is all you will ever have
I don't believe in Superman, Batman, Easter Bunny or Yode- Heh - Vahv - Heh. You may as well pray to Frosty the F$cking Snowman.

[(-$|N-)]

Hey now, Frosty is a pimp. He helped out those kids and stuff. However it sucks that he melted, because I think he woulda liked swimming.

[Greqoh]

Frosty would be great fun at parties.

"Oh Lord Frosty, Pray that I your faithful follower may take a scoop of your holy body, that we...thy chosen ones mayest make thine holy sacrament...frozen margaritas.."

Now isn't that alot more fun than the Catholic tradition of chips and wine/grape jJuice? Come on! If I am going to believe that Jesus walked on water, and brought back the dead...I am going to need a serious buzz.

If only the Bilderbergs would make pot legal....then I could even believe in the old testament.

Nothing instills faith like being really f$cked up.

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Originally Posted by Greqoh

OK, I admit that there are major gaps in the evolution theory.

Major gaps? Like what?

Jesus is a character, with no factual documentation outside of the bible.
No historians give an independent account of him, though we are told he was known all around the world.

As far as I know/can remember, most historians accept that Jesus did exist.

[Greqoh]

Re: Gaps.....

Many times what you see in the remains of "finds" are added by scientists.
I saw picture of before and after touch ups, and it was very signifigant.

Also the time lines of our history are very possibly false.
There are tools which have been found which date back when man should have not yet have been able to make them or use them.

There are ruins under the oceans which contradict world history, and no one deals with them because they don't know what to say.

For the theory to be complete we need better specimens, and more concise accounts of what man has been doing and for how long.

In all probability, though, evolution is true.


Re: Jesus...

Yes, he is real to most historians.
Why? It's not because they verified him in non biblical accounts.
He is not mentioned by the many respected historians of the days when he lived. They somehow missed him.

Let me get this straight...Hercules was a myth....Jesus existed...
Why? Why did he exist? Because a bunch of people said he did, after they killed everyone who disagreed?

We can prove that Washington existed, We can look at many other much older people and verify them, pharos, emperors....

But the son of God?
Hmmmmm....after everything he did....
How could it be a matter of faith?

And why have they changed the bible numerous times, and yet claim that it is infallible, and pure? B.S.

Jesus exists to keep people from thinking for themselves, the same as other Gods. Menatal sedatives for the savages.

Believe in yourself.
You have everything you need......If you just use the mind and courage evolution gave you.

You have a right to disagree though, most people will always need to be a slave to a government, or fake god puppets of crooked preists.

Do as thou wilt.

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Originally Posted by Greqoh

Re: Gaps.....

Many times what you see in the remains of "finds" are added by scientists.
I saw picture of before and after touch ups, and it was very signifigant.

Also the time lines of our history are very possibly false.
There are tools which have been found which date back when man should have not yet have been able to make them or use them.

There are ruins under the oceans which contradict world history, and no one deals with them because they don't know what to say.

For the theory to be complete we need better specimens, and more concise accounts of what man has been doing and for how long.

In all probability, though, evolution is true.

When I asked about gaps, I wanted evidence backing it up. Can you provide a reliable source to support what you said? Honestly, so far it sounds like a conspiracy theory despite your grudging, eventual acceptance of evolution.

Re: Jesus...

Yes, he is real to most historians.
Why? It's not because they verified him in non biblical accounts.
He is not mentioned by the many respected historians of the days when he lived. They somehow missed him.

But I'm pretty sure there are independent accounts of Jesus-not many because Jesus wasn't well known or unique when he was alive. He was just one among a number of heretics with a small following who threatened the Pharisees' power. He didn't become Jesus Christ Superstar until long after his death. "Respected historians" didn't "somehow" miss him-he simply wasn't important, and the people in power wanted to keep it that way.

Let me get this straight...Hercules was a myth....Jesus existed...
Why? Why did he exist? Because a bunch of people said he did, after they killed everyone who disagreed?

We can prove that Washington existed, We can look at many other much older people and verify them, pharos, emperors....

But the son of God?
Hmmmmm....after everything he did....
How could it be a matter of faith?

And why have they changed the bible numerous times, and yet claim that it is infallible, and pure? B.S.

Jesus exists to keep people from thinking for themselves, the same as other Gods. Menatal sedatives for the savages.

Believe in yourself.
You have everything you need......If you just use the mind and courage evolution gave you.

You have a right to disagree though, most people will always need to be a slave to a government, or fake god puppets of crooked preists.

Do as thou wilt.

What? Dude, don't preach to me-I'm an agnostic who wants to be an evolutionary biologist. All I said is that it's very probable that Jesus the person existed, not that he was the son of God.

As for Hercules, it's possible that there was a man named Hercules who was capable of amazing feats of strength and eventually become mythologized.

[Greqoh]

First of all let me say if you have a a hard on for me ... go have **** yourself with it.
No hard feelings, I hope?

I don't preach to you, I couldn't profit from what you believe or don't believe.

Now, since you (or someone else) are making an extraordinary claim (that Jesus lived and/ or was the son of god), then I believe it is up to YOU to prove it. It is not up to me to prove you wrong. So where is it?

I keep hearing this, but no one ever puts their facts out.
I could grab books, make quotes all night, but nothing would stop you from playing the "Well, WHO are they....Well, HOW do I know THAT is true" game.No source is ever good enough.

It's very fun, especially when you don't get up off your a$$ and investigate BOTH sides of the issues, yet you can pretend to have really thought about it.

If you had a source verifying that Jesus lived, believe me, you would have shoved it down my throat. You can't...you don't.
Perhaps that pisses you off..I don't really care.

Actually, I like the idea of evolution.
I despise the idea of a God that creates children so that his chosen people can bash their brains in and **** their mothers in front of them.
Yes, the universe is a machine, indeed.

As far as history, have you not heard of Hancock's book "Underworld"?
Start of there. Unless of course HE isn't reputable enough.
Like I said, your a pretender.

Goodnight child. :smile:

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Greqoh

Now, since you (or someone else) are making an extraordinary claim (that Jesus lived and/ or was the son of god), then I believe it is up to YOU to prove it. It is not up to me to prove you wrong. So where is it?

I keep hearing this, but no one ever puts their facts out.
I could grab books, make quotes all night, but nothing would stop you from playing the "Well, WHO are they....Well, HOW do I know THAT is true" game.No source is ever good enough.

It's very fun, especially when you don't get up off your a$$ and investigate BOTH sides of the issues, yet you can pretend to have really thought about it.

If you had a source verifying that Jesus lived, believe me, you would have shoved it down my throat. You can't...you don't.
Perhaps that pisses you off..I don't really care.

Actually, I like the idea of evolution.
I despise the idea of a God that creates children so that his chosen people can bash their brains in and **** their mothers in front of them.
Yes, the universe is a machine, indeed.

As far as history, have you not heard of Hancock's book "Underworld"?
Start of there. Unless of course HE isn't reputable enough.
Like I said, your a pretender.

Goodnight child. :smile:

I think (and please correct me if I'm mistaken, Granny-like_the_apple) that the point was that Jesus, to the historians at the time, was an unimportant blip that wasn't worthy of note. So there would be no historical record like there would be for a king. Minor cults of little consequence at the time are bound to not be recorded and rightfully so. The movers and shakers are the ones who make the history books. So to say that there was probably a jesus that the myths were based on is probably true seems perfectly reasonable.

I looked up the Underworld book and it seems to be about an Indian Atlantis and I'm not seeing how this is relevant.

In case it isn't intentional, you're coming across as very pretentious right now.