Mutual respect, Christianity (rant, plea) - Page 2

HumanePain · 02-17-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mir

Why can't we discuss the virtues and vices contained within The Odyssey, The Illiad or countless other pieces of fiction that are not pretentious enough to claim they are the word of God.

But...but the lliad contains even more of man's inhumanity against man, describing violent death with stones, swords and arrows, with gods taking an active role too. It is just that the supreme being is Apollo instead of Jehovah. Still a similar background.

Mir · 02-17-2007, 07:18 PM

That was not my point. The Illiad is not taken as the word of God. The bible is. They are both works of fiction and have nothing whatsoever to do with God. So if we can discuss one piece of fiction, why not another?

I just had an idea for a cool thread. List the names of all the books that could have made it as potential "Word Of God" religous texts.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-17-2007, 07:31 PM

We should! Wanna do it? Or should I? It's gonna be on the General section.

HumanePain · 02-17-2007, 07:35 PM

Why not the Literature section?

Mir · 02-17-2007, 07:37 PM

Go ahead! I'm not sure I can think of many that could be potentials though.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-17-2007, 07:39 PM

As soon as I can think of a score, I will. But not now; I need to brainstorm first.

Mir · 02-17-2007, 07:41 PM

I'm looking for books that could cut it as religious texts. I spelt religious wrong in my previous posts. Bummer.

HumanePain · 02-17-2007, 07:43 PM

I got your point though.

Mir · 02-17-2007, 07:46 PM

That is good enough for me. Anyone read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"? I would suggest that as a replacement to your beloved Bible, and my beloved Koran.

DarkHeartedDemoness · 02-17-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mir

That is good enough for me. Anyone read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"? I would suggest that as a replacement to your beloved Bible, and my beloved Koran.

I'm down with that.

Splintered · 02-17-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Romans 16:19- Be excellent at what is good, be innocent of evil.

Matthew 7:1- Judge not lest ye be judged.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

And even

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Those are all nice and fine. The whole problem with it is, the Bible clearly says either kill, or they are worthy of death. You can't deny this, because it's in black and white. You could theoretically argue the terminology, but it's essentially, "Someone, is worthy of death." If it's not homosexuals who "Are not of natural affliction", then we could say it's Blacks, or Jews, or whoever.

Yes, it has some nice little verses. So does every philosophy. Yet, if I fundamentally disagree with their philosophy, and their philosophy would have me killed, why shouldn't I treat it as hostile?

Circle V · 02-17-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Matthew 7:1- Judge not lest ye be judged.

God has already judged who is and who is not a sinner. This doesn't mean that sinners should not be punished by men.

Quote:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

A believer would gladly accept punishment for any sins he or she might commit. Therefore, punishing another for their sins is acceptable, as long as one takes care not to commit those same sins, at least without accepting the consequences.

Quote:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

"Thy people." This does not refer to everyone.

Ictum · 02-18-2007, 03:34 AM

Sorry for not adding anything constructive for the discussion but; that dialogue was effing quality.

DarkHeartedDemoness · 02-18-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splintered

Those are all nice and fine. The whole problem with it is, the Bible clearly says either kill, or they are worthy of death. You can't deny this, because it's in black and white. You could theoretically argue the terminology, but it's essentially, "Someone, is worthy of death." If it's not homosexuals who "Are not of natural affliction", then we could say it's Blacks, or Jews, or whoever.

Yes, it has some nice little verses. So does every philosophy. Yet, if I fundamentally disagree with their philosophy, and their philosophy would have me killed, why shouldn't I treat it as hostile?

Well, you could theoretically consider that, in this day and age, Christians prefer to just feel morally superior rather than actually burning heretics... Do you honestly fear for your life?

CptSternn · 02-18-2007, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Well, you could theoretically consider that, in this day and age, Christians prefer to just feel morally superior rather than actually burning heretics... Do you honestly fear for your life?

It's safe to say there are many who do fear for their lives in todays society because of their religious beliefs. Religious persecution is alive and well in many parts of the world, even in the west, today.

DarkHeartedDemoness · 02-18-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It's safe to say there are many who do fear for their lives in todays society because of their religious beliefs. Religious persecution is alive and well in many parts of the world, even in the west, today.

I would never disagree with you on that, but is it fair to blame Christianity alone? Or Christianity in general, for that matter, and not just specific sects?

I'm so immature... I'm giggling because I just wrote "sects".

Splintered · 02-18-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Well, you could theoretically consider that, in this day and age, Christians prefer to just feel morally superior rather than actually burning heretics... Do you honestly fear for your life?

Honestly? At some points I do. I see people bombing abortion clinics, walking along the streets with signs that say "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God For I.E.D.s", and just look at history, and it scares me. I mean, it doesn't just give me the "Oh, it scares me", and five minutes later I'm fine. It's the kind of thing that genuinely worries me.

I mean, look at how many genocides take place in the world today. People are being killed on an individual basis, without regard to who they are, or what they have experienced. People are simply killed.

So, knowing such powers, it scares me. Even in supposedly "Civilized" place like the U.S., the possibility is still there. Even saying, "Well, we're such an advanced country", doesn't make up for it. World War II started out with Germany being an advanced country itself. Yet, the holocaust was still perpetrated by a "Civilized" nation.

Maybe they "feel" morally superior, now. But I have to seriously ask myself. "[i]How long will this last?[i]" "How long might it be before they don't just need to feel morally superior anymore?" "If or when they do go off, where can I go? Where will I be able to hide?"

Sure, I can imagine someone rallying up an easy defense against a group of 30-40 extremists. Yet, how am I supposed to protect myself against a hundred? A thousand? Maybe, if every little detail goes to hell, a million?

It's the fact that it's there. It's the fact that it says, "You're targeted under my ideology, and anyone can take this as a justification to end your life." When all is said and done, if I am killed because of a hatred based on the bible, I can no longer argue, "Oh, but no one will interpret that literally".

Mir · 02-18-2007, 11:12 PM

Splintered: Try living in Muslim countries, you'll think you're in this world's version of Hell. I just escaped from one so I know what I'm talking about. You cannot even have an opinion. Just shut up and toe the line or you will get stoned/lynched is the general idea. You get to learn to be a real good actor or a premature death is all you have to live for.

My point is all about perspective.

CptSternn · 02-19-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

I would never disagree with you on that, but is it fair to blame Christianity alone? Or Christianity in general, for that matter, and not just specific sects?

I'm so immature... I'm giggling because I just wrote "sects".

Well NOT just Christianity. I mean, it can be found abundant pretty much everywhere these days.

That being said its amazing so many people don't call it what it is because they agree with it on some level in their area.

Drake Dun · 02-19-2007, 05:22 AM

Thanks to all for your responses, and especially to HumanePain. I can't say they magically made the problem go away, but at least I am starting to suspect that my assumption that the Christians who don't tell me to my face to go to hell are just dissembling needs reconsideration.

Some of this appears to hinge on the whole old testament / new testament thing. I need to do some homework on that to get a clear picture of what is going on, but up front I would say the analysis is going to go something like this:

1) Does the new testament say the same stuff about going to hell for not believing as the old testament? If so... well, the distinction is probably not very meaningful.
2) Do the claims that the parts of the old testament in question are abrogated by the new testament hold up to scrutiny? If the answer to 1 is no, and the answer to this is yes, then there should be a reasonably solid case that Christianity is not the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing.

Drake

Circle V · 02-19-2007, 04:59 PM

I don't fear for my life. But I know that my beliefs (or lack thereof) are enough to make people fear, distrust, or hate me. My options are to either keep silent about my views, make certain that my perceived virtues fantastically outweigh my perceived sin, or to confine myself to interacting with only a select few.

Prejudice against atheists is not solely the domain of fundamentalists and extremely devout believers. According to Richard Dawkins, about half of Americans would hesitate to vote an otherwise well-qualified atheist into political office.

Most of my friends and peers don't appear to mind that I'm a disbeliever, but I can tell that it bothers most of them. Hell, even many agnostics tend to feel that atheists are radical extremists, almost as dangerous as violent fundamentalists.

LaKeesha · 02-20-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mir

Splintered: Try living in Muslim countries, you'll think you're in this world's version of Hell. I just escaped from one so I know what I'm talking about. You cannot even have an opinion. Just shut up and toe the line or you will get stoned/lynched is the general idea. You get to learn to be a real good actor or a premature death is all you have to live for.

My point is all about perspective.

People just don't realize that kind of thing. *I* probably do not since I was never over there like you were. However, we need to remember that we have it somewhat better in the U.S. than other places.

mrs.wes straker · 02-28-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splintered

I do not get why I am expected to be nice to Christianity.

Christianity has caused wars (Thirty Years War), repression of other faiths (Conquistadors), attacks (Bombing of abortion clinics, attacks on homosexuals), etc. Why should I be nice to religion that does that? I mean, I think about how the "Conservative Religious Right", is trying to pass laws that would limit my individual freedoms, and I'm supposed to be nice to that?

It doesn't make sense. If Christianity is going to despise me for being bisexual, why shouldn't I despise Christianity? If they want to murder "The fags and dykes", why shouldn't I want to murder them? Some Christians want to make a "Christian Nation", why in hell shouldn't I want an Atheist Nation?

Correct me if I'm wrong; but isn't the desire to control resources the cause of all wars? Is religion not used as a smokescreen, or a "cause" that the common man will relate to-- a political control? Only the rich have the ability to declare war. They don't believe in God, and they could care less about the common man's rituals, but they know how dear they are to the common man, and simply use them to manipulate. I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

Drake Dun · 02-28-2007, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrs.wes straker

Correct me if I'm wrong; but isn't the desire to control resources the cause of all wars? Is religion not... a political control? [T]he rich... don't believe in God... but they know how dear they are to the common man... I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

We need to send more troops to Iraq to avoid failing in our duty to the Lord to spread freedom, peace, and democracy?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Drake

mrs.wes straker · 03-01-2007, 05:36 AM

It makes me sick. Religion is one of politicians' many lies, and God gets the blame for humanity's insatiable greed. I know this thread is a rant about Christianity, so let me return to that specific subject. I am a believer, but one of the Christ's main teachings was that no human being had the right to judge another. I understand that many Chrstians are extremely judgemental, and that's why a lot of people have a problem with them. People should realize that their poor example has nothing to do with God. Yes, I joined this thread to make that statement..... and yes I am goth.