What Religion do you Follow???

[KontanKarite]

Again, forgive me for assuming that you'd want to pick me apart. That was kinda assholeish of me.

[raggedyanne]

I'm a sort of agnostic. I was raised lutheran and my father is a failed catholic. I believe in karma and think that reincarnation is awesome. I am intrigued by wicca practices and plan to look into it. I have always felt more "spiritual" while listening to my cousin's christian rock band play, so to me music and dance are a way of getting in tune with the goddess spirit or god. I'm at a turning point in my life, so I haven't figured out what I want to believe yet.

1) Why did you pick this faith?
Since I'm sort of a jumble of faiths, I'd have to say that while rejecting christianity I found spirituality.

2) How old were you when you made this choice.
At 10 I realized that the faith my mother had given me was flawed, overbearing, and misinterpreted. It wasn't until recently (around my 13th birthday) that I really started to become interested in the asian and wicca religions.

3) Did your parents approve of the choice?
My dad supports me, but my mom says I'm going to hell.

4) Do you regret anything about making the choice now?
No, I think that as I enter my teens is the perfect time to explore spirituality as I discover who I am.

5) Omit questions 1-4 if you didn't make a choice and you were merely indoctrinated into the religion at birth.

6) Do you think you understand why we are alive now?
I don't think I ever will. Maybe we're simply an experiment or the outward expression of a greater being's creativity.

7) Do you believe you understand our purpose?
I don't believe that we are in any position to state our purpose. Each human has an individual reason for being here, they just have to find it.

8) Do you understand evolution?
I understand that we started a something simple, and that that something evolved so as to survive in the enviroment it was placed in. If there is a greater being, then Anne Rice's book "Memnoch, the devil" describes my feelings quite well. I believe that we were allowed to evolve on our own.

9) Do you believe you are wiser than an atheist when it comes to understanding the universe? No. It is hard for me to believe that there is nothing out there. But I believe in science and science shows that humans are genetically programmed to believe in a higher being as a coping mechanism.

10) Why don't you believe in another deity?
I believe in a deity that has split itself into lesser deities in order to address each facet of the world.

[Anomander]

Hmm, my views are a bit complex. I have no doubts that there is a God. I approach this God through the christian faith. I however am not convinced that the christian way is the only way to God. Of recent, I'm beginning to wonder whether Jesus preached himself as the way to God, or whether he was more symbolic, and was actually preaching his way of life (love, mercy and tolerance).

My current conclusion is that God is somewhat like the proverbial elephant, and the different religions are like blind men holding on to different parts - The blind man who touches the tusk thinks God is sharp and pointed, the one who touches the body feels God is like a wall, the one holding a leg insists God is like a tree, etc, etc. They are all right, yet they are all slightly wrong. I think it is FOLLY to limit God to a single religion

Evolution - I believe that it's a tool in the hands of God - i.e. creation and evolution are one and the same process, seen from different perspectives.

The Bible - I think it's packed full of symbolic and not literal messages, so people who focus on the literal message are likely to miss the point completely.

[Minyaliel]

Ah, so the questionnaire wasn't only intended for the Christians, then... I was wondering about that.

1) Why did you pick this faith?
I didn't pick my faith, it picked me. It kind of... just happened, really, but it felt right so I stuck to it.

2) How old were you when you made this choice.
It started when I was approx. 16 years old, I believe.

3) Did your parent approve of the choice?
I never told her. Why should I? Religion is a private issue, and what she doesn't know won't hurt her. *shrug*

4) Do you regret anything about making the choice now?
Nah, not really.

5) Omit questions 1-4 if you didn't make a choice and you were merely indoctrinated into the religion at birth.

6) Do you think you understand why we are alive now?
Yes, we're alive to experience just what it is to be alive, and to strive for happiness and mental/ physical/ spiritual satisfaction. Indulging in life is the key here.

7) Do you believe you understand our purpose?
I think I understand my own purpose, but that is not the same as understanding yours. Everyone has a different purpose in life, and so it is not possible for a single human being to understand the purpose of humanity.

8) Do you understand evolution?
Well, sort of. I do believe in the scientific theories about evolution anyway. Creationism was never something I could put my faith in.

9) Do you believe you are wiser than an atheist when it comes to understanding the universe?
No, not really. I'm only a human being, and thus prone to failure. Failing to understand the universe is human also, so therefore I cannot say that I have The One Truth (tm).

10) Why don't you believe in another deity?
Because I'm very comfortable with my pantheon already. And I really don't think I need another spiritual entity to keep track of...

[raggedyanne]

Thank you Anomander. Your view of god as the elephant has perplexed me and made me think. As for the bible; like the Koran or the Torah, can we not take the lessons of brotherly love and tolerance and leave behind the dissection of scriptures. The bible was not written until many years after the events. What was written was an oral history that focused on messages and not accuracy, so there is no "true way" to interpret it.

[KontanKarite]

Wow, this is actually some really cool questions.

I kinda feel like I'm learning something from all of you. Thanks for being interesting and different. ^__^

[raggedyanne]

We are Goths, are we not? We dare to be different. Going a bit off topic here; do you think that Goth's acceptance of all (or most) types of people encourages spiritual diversity and learning?

[CptSternn]

Catholic. 'Nuff said.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

We are Goths, are we not? We dare to be different. Going a bit off topic here; do you think that Goth's acceptance of all (or most) types of people encourages spiritual diversity and learning?

Yes. I know. But at the same time, we have our moments of being the exact opposite of what we claim. Just look at the politics threads.

[raggedyanne]

Ohh. Got me there. (cough:: sternn ::cough)

[KontanKarite]

*cough*ArtificialOne*cough*

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

That's where you're wrong about me, love. Given a big enough time frame, anything is possible.

Sure, beliefs can be illogical. But it doesn't make them any less true for the person in question.

I think the reason I don't seem to illicit some kind of reaction is because I don't seem to be all obsessed with the end of the world or the second coming of a Christ.

Once more, why wait on some messiah to solve everyone's problems when we could probably count on everyone to just use their heads. Hell, half the world's problems would be solved if everyone would at least THINK a little bit about their actions and such.

Actually, your beliefs are probabilistically as true as something as absurd as you can imagine that currently is not proven in the realm of science: think invisible, inaudible, unicorns.

I think the first thing to think about is why your belief system is correct--not why it feels right. Right and truth are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but surely can be when you believe in nonsense--such as women being inferior to men, and blacks inferior to whites, etc. It's all the same pseudoscientific stuff to me, and all of the reasoning behind it is simply vacuous, pseudoscientific parlance.

[Methadrine]

I don't believe in any god that man created.

[raggedyanne]

You are quite sane.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

I'm a sort of agnostic.

Now that's a good joke. Seriously, does anyone else get it? God, that's great.

I was raised lutheran and my father is a failed catholic.

What is a 'failed' catholic? I never knew there was a test, or criteria you had to meet to be, and sustain your catholicism.

I believe in karma and think that reincarnation is awesome.

Which is it, that you believe in this, or think it's so 'awesome' that you think it's true?

I am intrigued by wicca practices and plan to look into it.

Why? What is so intriguing about it? Why not make up your own practices. Wouldn't they be equally effective?

I have always felt more "spiritual" while listening to my cousin's christian rock band play, so to me music and dance are a way of getting in tune with the goddess spirit or god.

Are you sure it's not just a chemical reaction comproised of large amounts of serotonin and endorphins surging your brain like the amazing beat of a heavy metal band?

I'm at a turning point in my life, so I haven't figured out what I want to believe yet.

Why is belief necessary? Do you need to believe something to have a purpose?

1) Why did you pick this faith?
Since I'm sort of a jumble of faiths, I'd have to say that while rejecting christianity I found spirituality.

Why did you find it? Did someone tell you about it?

2) How old were you when you made this choice.
At 10 I realized that the faith my mother had given me was flawed, overbearing, and misinterpreted. It wasn't until recently (around my 13th birthday) that I really started to become interested in the asian and wicca religions.

So why aren't other faiths and beliefs flawed, overbearing, and misinterpreted? What makes Asian 'religions' any better? Also, Buddhism is a doctrine, not really a religion.

3) Did your parents approve of the choice?
My dad supports me, but my mom says I'm going to hell.

Do you think she's right?

4) Do you regret anything about making the choice now?
No, I think that as I enter my teens is the perfect time to explore spirituality as I discover who I am.

Couldn't this be a better time to think for yourself, rather than setup a belief system that will indoctrinate you into a group of like-minded individuals who have convinced themselves of the same things as you?

6) Do you think you understand why we are alive now?
I don't think I ever will. Maybe we're simply an experiment or the outward expression of a greater being's creativity.

Is it also probable that a purpose to our reckoning is not present, and never will be? Perhaps we have no objective, or even subjective purpose? Is that also probable to you? If so, how would you feel if it were true? Would you die?

7) Do you believe you understand our purpose?
I don't believe that we are in any position to state our purpose. Each human has an individual reason for being here, they just have to find it.

That sounds existential, but that is belied by your quasi-spiritual beliefs. Perhaps you should look into it. You may have a theistic leaning, but I suggest you research your reasoning a bit more.

8) Do you understand evolution?
I understand that we started a something simple, and that that something evolved so as to survive in the enviroment it was placed in. If there is a greater being, then Anne Rice's book "Memnoch, the devil" describes my feelings quite well. I believe that we were allowed to evolve on our own.

You don't have a great understanding of it, and evolution is not a teleological process by far, and you mustn't think of it as such, because it would merely confuse you.

9) Do you believe you are wiser than an atheist when it comes to understanding the universe? No. It is hard for me to believe that there is nothing out there. But I believe in science and science shows that humans are genetically programmed to believe in a higher being as a coping mechanism.

Then why do you think you should try and find one? Also, the evidence for us being genetically programmed to believe in a higher power is seemingly faulty by many logical fallacies. It's almost a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, in that human beings come, and then religion comes, thus our own information [genetics] must cause us to believe in god. I do not think this is the case. We contain a lot of junk information: old wives tales, other myths, trivia, and nonsense that may or may not be true. It doesn't necessarily have to be god, God, or goddesses. It's usually just how our brain stores concepts, and some concepts are more pleasing to us than others; albeit, it is arguable that the belief in God was originally not so pleasing--considering the guilt complex many early catholics had--you know, with the apple and all.

10) Why don't you believe in another deity?
I believe in a deity that has split itself into lesser deities in order to address each facet of the world.

What has led you to such a radical and completely unfounded conclusion? If it's a gut feeling, then don't tell me, because I get one of those when I have a bowel movement.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Minyaliel

Ah, so the questionnaire wasn't only intended for the Christians, then... I was wondering about that.

It's for anyone. Don't worry about it.

1) Why did you pick this faith?
I didn't pick my faith, it picked me. It kind of... just happened, really, but it felt right so I stuck to it.

What faith is that?

2) How old were you when you made this choice.
It started when I was approx. 16 years old, I believe.

How old are you now?

3) Did your parent approve of the choice?
I never told her. Why should I? Religion is a private issue, and what she doesn't know won't hurt her. *shrug*

If it's something that makes you happy, why not share it with others?

4) Do you regret anything about making the choice now?
Nah, not really.

6) Do you think you understand why we are alive now?
Yes, we're alive to experience just what it is to be alive, and to strive for happiness and mental/ physical/ spiritual satisfaction. Indulging in life is the key here.

Sounds like hedonism to me.

7) Do you believe you understand our purpose?
I think I understand my own purpose, but that is not the same as understanding yours. Everyone has a different purpose in life, and so it is not possible for a single human being to understand the purpose of humanity.

Why is that out of the question? What if I told you that science could, and most likely will find a 'purpose' for humanity--which is most likely moot.

8) Do you understand evolution?
Well, sort of. I do believe in the scientific theories about evolution anyway. Creationism was never something I could put my faith in.

Why do you have faith in things in the first place. Is it a natural thing? Does it seem unnatural to not have faith?

9) Do you believe you are wiser than an atheist when it comes to understanding the universe?
No, not really. I'm only a human being, and thus prone to failure. Failing to understand the universe is human also, so therefore I cannot say that I have The One Truth (tm).

Why is it 'one' truth? Is truth not merely a subjective construct? I think it's safe to say that there is no objective reason for this conversation, or anything to follow, but we're going to continue.

10) Why don't you believe in another deity?
Because I'm very comfortable with my pantheon already. And I really don't think I need another spiritual entity to keep track of...

Why do you believe so many? Or, why do you believe at all?

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Anomander

Hmm, my views are a bit complex. I have no doubts that there is a God. I approach this God through the christian faith. I however am not convinced that the christian way is the only way to God. Of recent, I'm beginning to wonder whether Jesus preached himself as the way to God, or whether he was more symbolic, and was actually preaching his way of life (love, mercy and tolerance).

My current conclusion is that God is somewhat like the proverbial elephant, and the different religions are like blind men holding on to different parts - The blind man who touches the tusk thinks God is sharp and pointed, the one who touches the body feels God is like a wall, the one holding a leg insists God is like a tree, etc, etc. They are all right, yet they are all slightly wrong. I think it is FOLLY to limit God to a single religion

Evolution - I believe that it's a tool in the hands of God - i.e. creation and evolution are one and the same process, seen from different perspectives.

The Bible - I think it's packed full of symbolic and not literal messages, so people who focus on the literal message are likely to miss the point completely.

Evolution and creation are two separate and diametrically opposed processes. They cannot reconcile with one another, because evolution does not require God, and creation does. Still, when you think about it. If God did create the evolutionary process, then he did a pretty shitty job. Just look at the eye; it's upside down, and wired backwards. Our brain has to fix that, and it does an excellent job of it, but things that have evolved through natural selection are at best engineered poorly. Even the flagellum motor is a very crappy attempt at a propelling system.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Onetwothree

Actually, your beliefs are probabilistically as true as something as absurd as you can imagine that currently is not proven in the realm of science: think invisible, inaudible, unicorns.

I think the first thing to think about is why your belief system is correct--not why it feels right. Right and truth are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but surely can be when you believe in nonsense--such as women being inferior to men, and blacks inferior to whites, etc. It's all the same pseudoscientific stuff to me, and all of the reasoning behind it is simply vacuous, pseudoscientific parlance.

Quite right. Science has the capacity to explain many things and in time, may be able to answer whatever questions we may ever have.

I say it's correct because it feels right for me. But I'll be damned if what I believe is the "One True Path". That would be skirting that whole accept Jesus as your savior kind of talk that would simplify many people. I think it's vulgar to speak in absolutes. It's folly to do so because, given enough time, anyone can be made a fool that way. My beliefs do not require others to believe them. Kinda like Crowley, "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Essentially, the reason I seem like I do is because I can really give a shit about the enlightenment of others. I'm no messiah or messenger of god/dess and don't claim to be. Hey, whatever helps you feel at peace with yourself.

As for science having the answers... well, I'm not a scientist. Things work, but logically, can I say that science is a possible absolute for me when I don't even have the time to experiment with the laws of gravity and such? I can take their word on so many things, but there's logically a line I have to draw.

Science has created and answered many questions. Has it proven that atheism is the only real means of spirituality? No. It's all still an unanswered question and I doubt it'll be answered in our lifetime.

Anyway, I gotta get back to loving my invisible, inaudible, unicorns.

*tucks dictionary away*

[raggedyanne]

"Anyway, I gotta get back to loving my invisible, inaudible, unicorns."

Ah, humor. It is a much needed thing when discussing religion. I would like to inform onetwothree that while he/she brings up good points in the flaws of my thinking process, diplomacy and tact would be appreciated. But thank you, onetwothree, you did make me question myself.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I say it's correct because it feels right for me.

Many people would say that, and one of you are very likely to be wrong. I think it's safe to say that there are many belief systems that cannot be reconciled with one another; Christianity and Islam are probably the most obvious. Still, your belief that something is correct because it feels right seems intellectually dishonest at its best, and at its worst, downright ignorant.

Something feels right because it is a chemical reaction in your brain, akin to sneezing, or perhaps getting a pick-me-up from a cup of coffee. I don't think it's anymore complicated than that. It's not a mind-shattering, life-altering epiphany sent from the holy one and all his angels, but you getting a little surge of doctor feel good. Since that is more likely true, what are you going to believe? I'm almost positive you are going to dismiss this. I still suggest you think about your 'choice' a little more, but it's still yours to make.

But I'll be damned if what I believe is the "One True Path".

Well, a lot of beliefs claim to be the correct one as I stated earlier. How do you know yours isn't the 'one true path," Kontan?

That would be skirting that whole accept Jesus as your savior kind of talk that would simplify many people. I think it's vulgar to speak in absolutes.

That's why no intelligent person does.

It's folly to do so because, given enough time, anyone can be made a fool that way. My beliefs do not require others to believe them. Kinda like Crowley, "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Essentially, the reason I seem like I do is because I can really give a shit about the enlightenment of others. I'm no messiah or messenger of god/dess and don't claim to be. Hey, whatever helps you feel at peace with yourself.

But is feeling at peace at the price of real knowledge worth it? A lot of the answers to your question are right in front of your face. They may seem less than epic at first, but you will soon grow to appreciate them if given time, and they are concrete, empirical, and if you are like me, your affinity with nature might just bubble over into a teary-eyed secular-spiritual moment.

As for science having the answers... well, I'm not a scientist. Things work, but logically, can I say that science is a possible absolute for me when I don't even have the time to experiment with the laws of gravity and such? I can take their word on so many things, but there's logically a line I have to draw.

Then draw the line, and test it yourself. Why ignore science because you can't do every single theory on earth? The law of gravity is a simple one to examine, and the reason it is called a law is because it has been tested and proven 'true' as close as 'true' can get for the past two hundred years. Thusly, it's most likely true everywhere in the universe. Why don't you want to listen to something that has proven something to the same level of the Copernican system? It seems insane not to listen to such wisdom and powerful knowledge. I don't recall the bible ever telling me that energy is equal to its mass times the speed of light squared.

Science has created and answered many questions. Has it proven that atheism is the only real means of spirituality? No. It's all still an unanswered question and I doubt it'll be answered in our lifetime.

It's as unanswered as if the sun is going to rise. There is a slim, almost impossible chance the sun will not rise, but if it does, I believe we will all cease our 'belief' that the sun will rise, and reform the theory.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

"Anyway, I gotta get back to loving my invisible, inaudible, unicorns."

Ah, humor. It is a much needed thing when discussing religion. I would like to inform onetwothree that while he/she brings up good points in the flaws of my thinking process, diplomacy and tact would be appreciated. But thank you, onetwothree, you did make me question myself.

Tact? I could say a lot worse; I am being very nice about this. Religion and any supernatural belief doesn't have any respect; the same way a rapist doesn't deserve any respect for his belief that r-ping children is 'teaching' them anything. Of course religion isn't as dangerous, but I don't view them as any less misguided--since both are unsubstantiated coping mechanisms for similar things. Religion is coping for death, and one is coping for their insatiable lust for little girls.

[KontanKarite]

How does it go? You catch more flies with honey. This honey smells a tad sour though. I'm going to go back to my silent observations now.

You can never win arguments based on opinions. That's silly. ^__^

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

How does it go? You catch more flies with honey. This honey smells a tad sour though. I'm going to go back to my silent observations now.

You can never win arguments based on opinions. That's silly. ^__^

What is silly is how you think I've given you an opinion on something. I have given you facts, and nothing more. I cannot say with utter certainty of a particular thing, but I can give you the odds, and if you like to gamble infinity to one, then be my guest. It's your life--wasted.

[Methadrine]

Speaking of arguments in religious matters, this was quite funny.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Onetwothree

Tact? I could say a lot worse; I am being very nice about this. Religion and any supernatural belief doesn't have any respect; the same way a rapist doesn't deserve any respect for his belief that r-ping children is 'teaching' them anything. Of course religion isn't as dangerous, but I don't view them as any less misguided--since both are unsubstantiated coping mechanisms for similar things. Religion is coping for death, and one is coping for their insatiable lust for little girls.

Interesting. I'm glad you've personally come to terms with your life and your world. That is, if you are. I'm sure you are and that's my whole point.

As you say, truth is subjective. No? I'm happy you're at a stage of understanding that works for you. Maybe someday I'll have no need for my unicorns. I have a lifetime to figure it out.

And my life wasted?? Please. Somehow, I just don't feel like I've done as such.

Originally Posted by Onetwothree

What is silly is how you think I've given you an opinion on something. I have given you facts, and nothing more. I cannot say with utter certainty of a particular thing, but I can give you the odds, and if you like to gamble infinity to one, then be my guest. It's your life--wasted.

Forgive me. I am rather simple. Could you list your facts that you've presented me? I want to make sure that I've got my ducks in a row.