Alf

[Raptor]

They aren't removing animals being tested on for medicine?

I'll admit I don't know anything about the ALF, but I was fairly sure they were against lab testing.

[JCC]

Yeah, you said that you were okay with it. They aren't okay with it.

[Raptor]

Ah I see. Yeah supporting them or not is just going to come down to how much you value animal life. It would be pretty hypocritical of me to support them, what with the meat eating and support of medical research.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Duncan

I think to reach permanent effect we should solve the problem itself not just fight against its consequences. Radical actions are looking spectacular in videos, but often the only thing they do, because the same shit will going on in different labs. Petitions, speeches, etc. work differently.

Not just fighting agaisnt the consequences, you're right, which is why I said I'd rather support an organization that is attacking people's perception of animals as commodities. But the ALF's frustration is more than understandable, billions of animals are dying, its an emergency and they don't want to wait any longer. Like seal hunt protesters, I must have signed a million petitions over the years trying to end the seal hunt, must have sent a dozen emails to my MP, lots of people don't support it, and it costs us millions and we're only making thousands from it, and yet for some reason, I guess to appease the lousy seven seats Newfoundland has in Parliament any bill introduced to end the seal hunt gets killed right away. And in America, something like 2/3s of Americans support humane farming and yet most of humane or anti cruelty laws that get introduced for farm animals get killed right away beause of lobbyists. Its a broken system and people are getting frustrated, in the meantime billions of animals are dying. To them its an emergency.

Saya: GJ asked the question:

"What's better: asking politely a bully to stop beating the shit out of you or punching him in the face and demand out of him to fuck off?"

And my answer was that you can try other solutions than "punching people in the face".

Provided other situations that have no bearing on the discussion at hand, in this situation the bully is a corporation, not a weak little woman, so its still besides the point and meaningless.

[Catch]

Animals are liberated enough. They walk naked all the time and can take a dump anywhere.

[JCC]

Catch once again graces us with her cutting edge political satire.

[Saya]

Indeed, so ground breaking and thought provoking it was that I promptly went out and ate a steak, then clubbed a baby seal to death before intentionally buying products that test on animals.

[Apathy's_Child]

To be fair, considering the origin that joke was goddamn INSPIRED.

[Duncan]

Congratulations people, nice brainwash.

The mere existence of modern humanity is sustainable by poisoning the whole Earth. Humans, your beloved animals and anything else included.
We are apparently not able to save our own lives from our own stupidity and greed.
Hippies doing this crap for ages now, but obviously no effect achieved. Self-conscious environmentalists should probably hang themselves, maybe that would help the cause of nature, and maybe we would have less morons in our midst. (If you really think I was serious, get a therapist NOW.)

Alf is nothing more than a nice pastime for rebellious teenagers, fustrated idiots, hippies etc. who like to play superman and enjoy to masturbate to the idea of saving animals.
Well, do it if you want, whatever floats your boat.

It is also a nice example why I think politics are complete bullshit.
Do not want.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Congratulations people, nice brainwash.

The mere existence of modern humanity is sustainable by poisoning the whole Earth. Humans, your beloved animals and anything else included.
We are apparently not able to save our own lives from our own stupidity and greed.
Hippies doing this crap for ages now, but obviously no effect achieved. Self-conscious environmentalists should probably hang themselves, maybe that would help the cause of nature, and maybe we would have less morons in our midst. (If you really think I was serious, get a therapist NOW.)

Alf is nothing more than a nice pastime for rebellious teenagers, fustrated idiots, hippies etc. who like to play superman and enjoy to masturbate to the idea of saving animals.
Well, do it if you want, whatever floats your boat.

It is also a nice example why I think politics are complete bullshit.
Do not want.

Congratulations, you have proved yourself to be a idiot. Our existence is not sustainable by poisoning the planet, thats the reason why the price of food rises, the rainforests get destoryed and we all die from swine flu because we literally feed animals their own shit. Human "traditions" come and go and there's no reason why the enslavement of animals can't end as well aside from those who profit from their misery and pricks like you rolling their eyes in apathy.

[Mir]

I thought this was appropriate.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Congratulations people, nice brainwash.

The mere existence of modern humanity is sustainable by poisoning the whole Earth. Humans, your beloved animals and anything else included.
We are apparently not able to save our own lives from our own stupidity and greed.
Hippies doing this crap for ages now, but obviously no effect achieved. Self-conscious environmentalists should probably hang themselves, maybe that would help the cause of nature, and maybe we would have less morons in our midst. (If you really think I was serious, get a therapist NOW.)

Alf is nothing more than a nice pastime for rebellious teenagers, fustrated idiots, hippies etc. who like to play superman and enjoy to masturbate to the idea of saving animals.
Well, do it if you want, whatever floats your boat.

It is also a nice example why I think politics are complete bullshit.
Do not want.

Okay. Go away then.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Congratulations people, nice brainwash.

The mere existence of modern humanity is sustainable by poisoning the whole Earth. Humans, your beloved animals and anything else included.
We are apparently not able to save our own lives from our own stupidity and greed.
Hippies doing this crap for ages now, but obviously no effect achieved. Self-conscious environmentalists should probably hang themselves, maybe that would help the cause of nature, and maybe we would have less morons in our midst. (If you really think I was serious, get a therapist NOW.)

Alf is nothing more than a nice pastime for rebellious teenagers, fustrated idiots, hippies etc. who like to play superman and enjoy to masturbate to the idea of saving animals.
Well, do it if you want, whatever floats your boat.

It is also a nice example why I think politics are complete bullshit.
Do not want.

And you talk about brainwash.
Prove to me that anything you said is based on truth, rather than you're merely spewing baseless bullshit to defend your opinions.
"Nice try people but you're wrong and I'm right. Wh yam I right? Because I'm right and I believe this shit is right"

As I said, you're fucked up.

[Duncan]

You should decide what do you want:
Media attention or doing illegal activities.
I not a lawyer, but as far as i know vandalism or/and stealing animals from labs is punished by law. Leastwise here it is. If you want to do something illegal it's not so clever to attract attention. Note the fact that media attention also includes the police. After a few attacks you also can expect increased security. Sooner or later someone will get caught.

I'm quite sure that this companies, labs etc. have pretty good defense lawyers. They are probably ritch, calculating and powerful-buissness world is cruel, they know how to fight back. They are also connected with other members of the medicine, fashion and all the all the other industries. Vested interest or whatever you call it in english. Never underestimate bureaucracy.

Even if you manage put them into a bothersome situation, they still can get away, and continue the same thing elsewhere. (Or is ok, if it's not happening in your backyard?!) As long as there will be people who are poor enough to have no ethic dilemmas, labs will be welcomed. And as long as putting animals to the torture is still the cheapest way to produce/test their stuff, they will use animals.

I may be an idiot, but I doubt that I am on the same level with this firms.
By the way, in the previous page I attempted to illustrate this problem, but it looks like you completely misunderstood me.
Sometimes you have to be a bit more tricky than punch the (obviously stronger) one directly in the face. And yes, the legal solution has its disadvantages, but maybe you are at least less vulnerable.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Duncan

And as long as putting animals to the torture is still the cheapest way to produce/test their stuff, they will use animals.

That isn't true, it's actually more expensive. It costs a lot for food, space, and vets.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Raptor

That isn't true, it's actually more expensive. It costs a lot for food, space, and vets.

Only if you want to keep them comfortable and healthy. If they really wanted them to be comfortable and healthy probably they would not poison them with chemical substances, peel off their fur, etc.

[JCC]

Duncan, your post is saying the same "BUREAUCRACY IS HARSH AND CRUEL AND VINDICTIVE, IT IS THE GREAT MONSTER THAT RAPES OUR CHILDREN ETC." line that ALF take to justify their actions. You're just being a pessimist about what can be done.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by JCC

Duncan, your post is saying the same "BUREAUCRACY IS HARSH AND CRUEL AND VINDICTIVE, IT IS THE GREAT MONSTER THAT RAPES OUR CHILDREN ETC." line that ALF take to justify their actions. You're just being a pessimist about what can be done.

Because that is what I experience. Sorry, next time I will and shut my eyes to this things, so EVIL BUREAUCRACY will just disappear. Never existed. Ignorance is magic.

[JCC]

You don't appear to get it. Before, you were saying that ALF actions are stupid and hippie environmentalists should hang themselves etc. Now you're just saying that they're stupid because the system, that you admit is vile, might be too strong for them. You make it seem like your quarrel isn't with their ethics, or even with their methods, only with their optimism.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by JCC

You don't appear to get it. Before, you were saying that ALF actions are stupid and hippie environmentalists should hang themselves etc. Now you're just saying that they're stupid because the system, that you admit is vile, might be too strong for them. You make it seem like your quarrel isn't with their ethics, or even with their methods, only with their optimism.

Well almost. "Sorry guys, it is really sweet what you are trying to do but I'm too pessimistic to belive that this methods would actually work." Yes sometimes I am very pessimistic.
If I just ruined your childhood dreams, please forgive me.

[JCC]

Why are you trying to be a fucking smartass with me? I don't give a shit whether you're a pessimist, I just don't see why you're in this thread if the only thing that you have to talk about is your own negativity.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Only if you want to keep them comfortable and healthy. If they really wanted them to be comfortable and healthy probably they would not poison them with chemical substances, peel off their fur, etc.

Aside from the testing, they are kept comfortable and healthy, otherwise any negative reactions could have resulted from the living conditions rather than the product. Keeping them healthy is in the best interests of the company doing the testing. You don't seem to know anything about how tests are actually performed, just how you think they are.

[Catch]

Seriously, I feel that especially farm and ranch animals should be free range and have an exceptable quality of life. I'm also against hormon injection or treatment being placed in their food.

[Duncan]

JCC: I just dare to say what I think. Yes, it is negative. Deal with it, I am not going to shut up just because you don't like what I say.

Raptor: I dont think they care that mutch. The tests are killing them anyway.
And the test results are imprecise because of the difference between the human and tha animal body. Some products caused allergy to humans after years of animal testing.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Duncan

JCC: I just dare to say what I think. Yes, it is negative. Deal with it, I am not going to shut up just because you don't like what I say.

Raptor: I dont think they care that mutch. The tests are killing them anyway.
And the test results are imprecise because of the difference between the human and tha animal body. Some products caused allergy to humans after years of animal testing.

I don't think JCC thinks what you said was offensive or ground breaking, just stupid. The ALF has been around for a while, nothing you're saying is something they haven't considered before and apparently have overcome.

And while I agree they don't care that much, its still expensive raising an animal, for litter, food, and to accommodate whatever horrible side effect the drugs do to them. For example, if one drug gives a rat or rabbit horrible diarrhea, it requires a more frequent litter change. Oh, and the drugs. The drugs themselves for all that testing would be expensive as well.