Nihilism

[Godslayer Jillian]

You do have an excellent point. Although I associate people's individual values to a latent solipsism in everyone.
I have not met someone that hasn't asked himself "What if all my life is just a dream and I'm sleeping in a cosmic bed?"
This tells me solipsism is always resting in people's minds.

(*aside: A thread on Solipsism would be awesome.)

[Circle V]

True, but solipsism is also irrelevant. Even if it were true, it could never be proven, nor could anything be done about it-- in the end, nothing would change.

Belief in nihilism is impossible because it necessitates belief in the contradictory concept that philosophies, along with everything else, are meaningless.

[Godslayer Jillian]

That would end in a discussion of semantics, as in my personal oppinion, it's humans who assign meaning to abstracts.
The simple fact that I find beauty in Nihilism gives it a meaning, but that in itself will be meaningless when the sun fades away and there's nothing to assign what is meaningful.

[Circle V]

Let me clarify: many elements of nihilism are very useful and very true. I agree with what you are saying, but I do not believe that it reflects a truly nihilistic philosophy. Assigning meaning to things--regardless of whether that meaning has any sort of permanence or importance-- is not nihilistic. Recognizing the impermanence and unimportance (relative to all of existence) of one's self and one's beliefs is a necessity, but it isn't a practice confined to nihilism.

Why does it matter that everything will eventually cease to exist and lose all meaning? I don't intend to be around after I've died.

If something is meaningful to me, that's all that matters. Nihilism, I believe, is refusing to give meaning to anything because of the knowledge that all meaning will eventually be wiped away.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Circle V

If something is meaningful to me, that's all that matters. Nihilism, I believe, is refusing to give meaning to anything because of the knowledge that all meaning will eventually be wiped away.

Following that view, I thoroughly agree on the fallacies of Nihilism.
I follow more of a positive Nihilism rather than a pessimistic Nihilism, which I nontheless advocate as real in the realms of Reason.
Indeed, the knowledge of meaninglessness in the cosmos doesn't stop me from giving meaning to feelings, objects, and abstracts.

[Circle V]

I would not call it nihilism, but that is your choice.

[HumanePain]

So CircleV: your view is that Nihilism is invoked when we cease to exist?

My view is that Nihilism "means" meaninglessness (oxymoron?) is constant in the universe, even while we live. We may step on an insect for no reason at any time, or we may let the ant live. We ourselves in turn may be "stepped on" (for example, we are struck down by leukemia or tsunami). That these events have odds happening at any time means that meaninglessness is available at any point on the time line. It constantly "exists", not just when we die. Sorry if I am not making my point clear, I am a little fuzzy headed at the moment.

What I am trying to say is that (using Jillian's comment) even when the light is ON, there is still no meaning, in my humble opinion of Nihilism.
I am not saying this is my philosophical belief, just my understanding of this particular philosophy, please correct me if I misunderstand.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Mick Ignis

I'm pleased with Democracy. I'm able to do whatever I want, say whatever I want, and create whatever I want. I feel no need to infringe on others lives, and I've never done or had the urge to do anything illegal. The only thing in this world that upsets me is the average person, who under anarchy and nihilism, would have beat me to a pulp and left me for dead because they were uncomfortable with the way I looked or the things I'm interested in. Government is a reflection of mass society.

You essentially contradicted yourself in that statement.

Being free to do as you wish, and not being able to do anything illegal, are two different things.

For instance, under your first statement, I would be free to murder Jillian. (Not like I would... Now where did I put that gun...) Under your second statement, I could not do that.

Democracy is only the will, of the masses. For instance, if the masses believe that all Jews should be killed, does this necessarily make them correct? If your Jewish, probably not. Minorities are never taken into consideration. Which is why democracy is a horrible system. But, it's the only one that really works right now, save for the lucky benevolent dictatorship, or some other enlightend set of government.

As for Nihilism, I can't say I don't believe in it.

I do not believe that we have a set, universal purpose in this world.
Or that anything has a true, universal meaning.
If other people actually exist.
And that's up for debate.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Simple issue of definition. The name of Nihilism can be applied if it stays intact of one's personal beliefs by knowing that there is no meaning to existence, but choosing not to act upon that knowledge.
The question now would be: can two opposite ideas coexist, exist in one sole mind without merging, or would the concept be an entirely new idea that would need another name and explanation regardless of wether it's erroneous or not?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Splintered

For instance, under your first statement, I would be free to murder Jillian. (Not like I would

You know you want to. I have purple blood.

Originally Posted by Splintered

Democracy is only the will, of the masses.

I definitely agree with this. All forms of government empower those that already have power. The only difference between governments is its economic success and the people that have that power.
In a Despotism, he with greater strenght has the power. In Communism, he with more guns has the power. In democracy, he with the most people behind him has the power, and those people are behind him with the hopes of empowering themselves.
Democracy is only technically better than Communism in that it empowers more people and makes more people happy.

[Circle V]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

My view is that Nihilism "means" meaninglessness (oxymoron?) is constant in the universe, even while we live. We may step on an insect for no reason at any time, or we may let the ant live. We ourselves in turn may be "stepped on" (for example, we are struck down by leukemia or tsunami). That these events have odds happening at any time means that meaninglessness is available at any point on the time line.

I agree entirely.

However, nihilism, as I see it, also states that the assignment of meaning to anything is impossible or futile.

I believe, on the other hand, that the question of whether or not our lives and actions have a sort of universal meaning and impact is entirely irrelevant. We live, we die, the living carry on. The meaning of it all is up to us. I believe that life doesn't need justification-- if anything, life gives meaning.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I just have to say that I missed this.
HumanePain has free time, Splintered came back, and Circle V is in the very least visiting us.
You made my day.

[Splintered]

It'd be like a spacey version of counterstrike.

If it was like a text based RPG

/AIM
Jillian unknowingly blinks before my rediculously big, high priced .50 firearm, that is louder then a cannon, and illegal in every state except Texas and California.
/Shoot
Jillian's head explodes in a glory of purple haze.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Mick Ignis

Look forward to a stop-motion cartoon that's shows exactly what a roach is thinking, and what it does in it's spare time!

It was dark. Time to feed.

All was quiet. Roach felt safe. It was time to leave the weathered crack in the old wood floor underneath the refridgerator, and look for crumbs. Actually, from the view of Roach, they were boulders. Huge masses of bread crust, cheese gratings, thick layers of spilled and now curdled milk, even sweet sticky varnish of Kool-Aid. He climbed out.

Roach began waving his antennae about, smelling for nourishment. Ah! Cat food! His dim consciousness was stimulated by a neuron or two that remembered the taste. His six legged locomotion quickened its pace.

Before Roach could locate the discarded cat chow, his senses picked up something else: FEMALE ROACH!

Now he stopped. He turned ninety degrees and sniffed with antennae. Turned another ninety degrees and sniffed again. Aha! He charged, full speed ahead.

There she was: Roach could not exactly see her in the dark, but he could feel her, and smell her. Her antennae probing his exoskelton triggered another neuron somewhere, the one for Roachy romance.

Suddenly, the floor was ablaze with blinding energy! The lights! His one neuron that was thinking of her switched off, and was superceded by another which was wired to the light sensing organ in his head. His six legs scurried as fast as he could.

Now he could feel the vibrations in the floor, something large was approaching, he was running as fast as he could, but the the entire floor was now loudly thumping as the huge thing quickly approached.

He reached the crack in the floor just in time as the sky filled with gargantuan lengths of straw from the massive broom. THUD! The impact shook him off the side of the crack where he was hiding, and he fell all the way through the floor under the house, to the ground.

Landing on his legs instinctlvely, his antennae began to probe his new surroundings. FEMALE! It was her! She too had survived, her antennae obviously excited to see him, as he was to see her. Thus began the story of Roach Romance...

[HumanePain]

ugh...sorry. Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on the conversation. My mischievious muse made me do it.

[goth4God]

Surprisingly, morals were around before the idea of God or religion. Funny, huh?[/quote]
not according to christians....God has always existed and shall forever due so..and as for those Christians who try to impress thier views on those of you who dont beleave im tring not to be one of those so if i start to upset u im sorry.
first off i think you all should read the universe next door its a great book on world views i just finished it i would b total clueless right now if i hadn't . Nihilism is the view (not a worlview because it rejects everything from all previous moral or religious value and surprisingly all world views) that there is no God and some how we all came to b, and your actions and thoughts are not your own. For they were caused by occurances/influences earlier in your life- so that thought u just had its not realy yours-.Also that we all live in a closed system so everything is controled and u cant do nohtn bout it. Also that there is no meaning to life....i dont kno about u guys but that thought just scares me, that this is it, there is no more to our existance then this...that is why i beleave there is a God. how could this all b meaningless. as Sire writes "there is a God shaped vacuum in all of us"

[Godslayer Jillian]

First of all, the only thing that upsets me is your lack of spelling. You have a relatively good argument, but not many people will take you seriously if you write like any other 13-year old kid in the internet.
But I won't solely criticize you on that because you make a worthy enough discussion.
I have read The Universe Next Door, but I have read the one written by Robert Anton Wilson, while you must be referring to the one by James Sire. Both sides of the spectrum.

What I want to criticize most is the combination of Nihilism with Determinism. Nihilism in itself does not say that we live in a closed system.
You seem to know your Apologetics, but I must warn you that even Christian Apologetics trying to define secular ideas in an objective point of view are still biased. Another example of this is that most Christians equate Evolution to the belief that we come from non-life. Sure, it seems a logic conclusion, but Evolution in itself never said that we come from non-life.
The statement that Nihilism implies a closed system of existence is only as accurate as if I said that the existence of God negates the possibility of Free Will as we all act according to his predestined plan.
Still, you stated that you are not trying to change our beliefs and kept that promise, so I'm not here to question your personal beliefs. I'm just stating that one has to be careful when assuming things, because in this instance Nihilism can exist without Determinism being true.

[Mick Ignis]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

It was dark. Time to feed.

All was quiet. Roach felt safe. It was time to leave the weathered crack in the old wood floor underneath the refridgerator, and look for crumbs. Actually, from the view of Roach, they were boulders. Huge masses of bread crust, cheese gratings, thick layers of spilled and now curdled milk, even sweet sticky varnish of Kool-Aid. He climbed out.

Roach began waving his antennae about, smelling for nourishment. Ah! Cat food! His dim consciousness was stimulated by a neuron or two that remembered the taste. His six legged locomotion quickened its pace.

Before Roach could locate the discarded cat chow, his senses picked up something else: FEMALE ROACH!

Now he stopped. He turned ninety degrees and sniffed with antennae. Turned another ninety degrees and sniffed again. Aha! He charged, full speed ahead.

There she was: Roach could not exactly see her in the dark, but he could feel her, and smell her. Her antennae probing his exoskelton triggered another neuron somewhere, the one for Roachy romance.

Suddenly, the floor was ablaze with blinding energy! The lights! His one neuron that was thinking of her switched off, and was superceded by another which was wired to the light sensing organ in his head. His six legs scurried as fast as he could.

Now he could feel the vibrations in the floor, something large was approaching, he was running as fast as he could, but the the entire floor was now loudly thumping as the huge thing quickly approached.

He reached the crack in the floor just in time as the sky filled with gargantuan lengths of straw from the massive broom. THUD! The impact shook him off the side of the crack where he was hiding, and he fell all the way through the floor under the house, to the ground.

Landing on his legs instinctlvely, his antennae began to probe his new surroundings. FEMALE! It was her! She too had survived, her antennae obviously excited to see him, as he was to see her. Thus began the story of Roach Romance...

Hahahaha! Well done HumanePain, well done ;}

[Don't Look Behind You]

not according to christians....God has always existed and shall forever due so..and as for those Christians who try to impress thier views on those of you who dont beleave im tring not to be one of those so if i start to upset u im sorry.
first off i think you all should read the universe next door its a great book on world views i just finished it i would b total clueless right now if i hadn't . Nihilism is the view (not a worlview because it rejects everything from all previous moral or religious value and surprisingly all world views) that there is no God and some how we all came to b, and your actions and thoughts are not your own. For they were caused by occurances/influences earlier in your life- so that thought u just had its not realy yours-.Also that we all live in a closed system so everything is controled and u cant do nohtn bout it. Also that there is no meaning to life....i dont kno about u guys but that thought just scares me, that this is it, there is no more to our existance then this...that is why i beleave there is a God. how could this all b meaningless. as Sire writes "there is a God shaped vacuum in all of us"

I now also am not attempting to try to prozletise my views but your post just made me think... Is belief in God really justified simply by unwillingness to accept that there is no more to our existance then this? So one truely and honestly believes in the existance of God becuase one fears the thought that there is possibly no meaning AT ALL to one's existance. I would say that is a deliberate hanging of a veil over one's eyes and building up of a world of illusions....and knowing that that is the case. It is a consious denial of what you saw and didn't like.

[HumanePain]

Hello Don't Look Behind You! Is it just me or has it been a while since you have posted? Welcome back in either case.

[Don't Look Behind You]

Wow! Someone remembers me!

I am indeed back and happily reading your wonderful and inspiring work about roaches

[Godslayer Jillian]

Haha, I think we all remember you, but as for me, I'm awkward with goodbyes and welcome-backs.