Goths in school...

[dabbadmc]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I's a place to learn, yes. At the same time, it's up to you to learn what you will and what you want.

Fashion doesn't get in the way of education.

I agree with this.

Underwater Ophelia, I understand where you're coming from, but I am slightly perplexed that our teachers would spend so much time emphasising the importance of diversity, yet would insist on enforcing these rules.

I wanted to highlight this one:
"Boys are expected to be clean-shaven and have short hair acceptably styled. It should not touch the collar."
I mean, it's unfair that girls are allowed long hair, but boys aren't. Isn't that enforcing gender stereotypes? Personally, I prefer longer hair on boys and a bit of stubble, but that's just my opinion. I'm sure if, given the chance, many boys would grow their hair longer than they have to keep it now, to conform to the rules.

I agree with you when you say "school is not a place to show off your fashion sense" but my school in question doesn't allow us to wear anything which would make us individual. I was so horrified when they took my friend's necklace away!

So yeah, I think it's good that we wear uniforms so that there's less distraction. But there could be a little more leeway, don't you agree?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by dabbadmc

I agree with this.

Underwater Ophelia, I understand where you're coming from, but I am slightly perplexed that our teachers would spend so much time emphasising the importance of diversity, yet would insist on enforcing these rules.

I wanted to highlight this one:
"Boys are expected to be clean-shaven and have short hair acceptably styled. It should not touch the collar."
I mean, it's unfair that girls are allowed long hair, but boys aren't. Isn't that enforcing gender stereotypes? Personally, I prefer longer hair on boys and a bit of stubble, but that's just my opinion. I'm sure if, given the chance, many boys would grow their hair longer than they have to keep it now, to conform to the rules.

I agree with you when you say "school is not a place to show off your fashion sense" but my school in question doesn't allow us to wear anything which would make us individual. I was so horrified when they took my friend's necklace away!

So yeah, I think it's good that we wear uniforms so that there's less distraction. But there could be a little more leeway, don't you agree?

Distraction? I don't understand this sentiment. What's distracting? Do you guys not have the personal faculties of mind to focus on the curriculum? Suppress the self expression because... gee, we just can't HELP ourselves and would just continually stare at the girl with pink hair instead of learn something.

Uniforms are wrong and they don't accomplish what they're meant to accomplish.

You know what problem I had in school? I would day dream. Constantly. My own thoughts took me places and I would usually end up missing a lot of the class lecture. I would day dream of design, fashion, music, art, religion, politics... These day dreams distracted me from the classes. What kind of oppression could they instill in classes that could keep me from day dreaming?

[meezerosity]

I haven't read the entire thread since its 35 pages long, but I do have to say that a boring teacher was far more distracting than what the kid sitting next to me was wearing. In school, I honestly didn't care what I looked like. A t-shirt and jeans was my usual attire because I had to be up early and didn't have time to bother, I learned a lot and recently graduated with high honors.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by dabbadmc

Our school doesn't target goths, but they don't look too kindly on them.
We get one day a year where we wear our own clothes, and the amount of abuse I got from students and teachers alike was embarassing.

However, we wear school uniforms the rest of the year. Here are some of the school rules referring to appearance:

Uniform
An important aspect of education is learning to present oneself properly. While pupils are here their appearance and behaviour reflect directly on the College.

* The school blazer should be worn while travelling to and from school and when representing the school. (It's uncomfortably stuffy in the summer to wear school uniform, especially the blazer.)

* Non-uniform items will be confiscated and held by the Head of Year. (which they never give back.) Non-uniform clothing should not be brought to school. (In regards to this, I put an anti-abortion badge that my mother gave me on my jumper, as well as a merit badge. They were confiscated. My friend wore a necklace her grandmother gave her on her first holy communion, and this too was confiscated. It's pretty unreasonable, especially if they're special and necessary to the student involved).


Dress & Grooming
Personal appearance and safety are central to the College's regulations on dress and grooming.

* Pupils should maintain a good standard of dress and grooming.
* Girls may wear a single pair of ear studs or sleepers. No other jewellery is permitted. Skirts should be knee length.
* All shoes must have flat heels with no coloured trim. (My mother spent a fortune on good leather shoes for me in my second year so that they would last for more than one year. They told me to take them back because the 'heel was too big.' That was a lot of money wasted, and there are girls prancing around with much bigger heels than I had.)
* Make-up and nail lacquer should not be worn. (My friend wore a deep purple nail varnish on one of the last days of school. In a form interview, the head of year told her to take it off and added that she should 'Stop trying to be individual!')
* Boys are expected to be clean-shaven and have short hair acceptably styled. It should not touch the collar. (So basically girls can have hair down to their asses, but boys can't. When it starts to get a little long, it has to be shaved.)
* Girls should have hair acceptably styled, avoiding fashions.
* Dyeing of hair is not allowed. (I understand that hair shouldn't be dyed bright pink or neon shades, but we're not even allowed to dye it a shade lighter or darker than normal, even if it's a natural colour.)

Lastly, no makeup whatsoever is allowed. The teachers take turns to hand out wipes to 'take that lousy muck off your face!'

I understand that the rules are there because we're representing the school, but some of them are a little far-fetched. Everyone looks the same.

This became a little off-topic, but the school targets individuality, and looks down upon goths when they spot them on the only day of the year where the pupils wear their own clothes. In a form class discussion, random words were called out, and we had to write down the first thing we associate with them (it was to combat stereotypes). 'Goth' was called out and everyone in the class wrote down 'black.' I wrote down 'Rozz Williams' (hehe) and then we were asked whether the response we picked was positive, negative, or neutral. Naturally, everyone thought 'negative' while I was the only one who picked 'positive.' So my teacher asked 'What did you write down?' and I told her my answer, explaining who Rozz was. She then told the class how she never bought her children black clothes, because they're too dark and gloomy, and smirked at me for my 'weird answer'. There was then a discussion about Marilyn Manson. Trying to stop stereotypes indeed!


...and now I'm done.

School uniforms don't work. If you can't focus in class to study for a test because of someone's hair color, it's not their fault, you're a nit wit. Besides most schools are nothing but mindless, low budget indoctrination centers where we brainwash the shit out of our youth and teach them just enough to work and not enough to realize they're being socially and politically sodomized for the personal gain of those smart enough to take advantage of this corrupt system.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

School uniforms don't work. If you can't focus in class to study for a test because of someone's hair color, it's not their fault, you're a nit wit. Besides most schools are nothing but mindless, low budget indoctrination centers where we brainwash the shit out of our youth and teach them just enough to work and not enough to realize they're being socially and politically sodomized for the personal gain of those smart enough to take advantage of this corrupt system.

Well obviously. Though to clarify, I don't think Dabbadmc is a nitwit, they weren't really supporting the idea of the uniform.

While all the rest of your statement, I would have to pretty much agree with.

Ever wonder why they don't teach logic or reasoning in schools?

[dabbadmc]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Distraction? I don't understand this sentiment. What's distracting? Do you guys not have the personal faculties of mind to focus on the curriculum? Suppress the self expression because... gee, we just can't HELP ourselves and would just continually stare at the girl with pink hair instead of learn something.

Uniforms are wrong and they don't accomplish what they're meant to accomplish.

You know what problem I had in school? I would day dream. Constantly. My own thoughts took me places and I would usually end up missing a lot of the class lecture. I would day dream of design, fashion, music, art, religion, politics... These day dreams distracted me from the classes. What kind of oppression could they instill in classes that could keep me from day dreaming?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with this. I would have put 'distraction' in quotation marks in my original post if I could edit it. You see, I've already raised this point with my teachers - people aren't going to focus on their clothing instead of the whiteboard. No-one really gives a shit. If a girl did colour her hair pink, people would get over the original shock and move on. But the teacher I raised this point with really thought otherwise. She said that people would both:
a) Spend homework time at night worrying about what they're going to wear
b) Fidget or get 'distracted' in class.

I think this is bullshit. No-one I know would get distracted by clothing. So yeah, rather than worry about whether these accessories or clothing would 'distract' away from the lesson, they should worry whether their lessons are good enough to maintain our focus.

(As I mentioned in a couple of posts above, the ability of our teachers to communicate education is slipping though. So they're silly to think that any lack of focus would be a result of what one wears, rather than the fact that we don't get taught properly. )

[Tam Li Hua]

The extremes of that situation are insane. However, I have to say that, in general, uniforms can be a good idea.

For instance, in my hometown, a lot of kids in the public school were beating each other up over what kind of clothes or shoes or whatever that they wore. [Certain colors were considered 'gang' colors, and more expensive clothing was often stolen from those who couldn't fight.] As a result, the public school system was forced to institute uniforms in order to stop some of the fighting.

While I agree that confiscating meaningful jewelry, etc. might be going a bit far, I also think that, in the end, uniforms [and, in general, a dress code], can keep a lot of adolescent hate and jealousy in check. [It should be noted that I was going to private school during this time, and though we had a dress code, we didn't have uniforms. The 'no long hair' thing for boys is actually pretty common. In addition, a lot of private institutions don't allow girls to wear shorts/skirts more than two inches above the knee..]

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

uniforms [and, in general, a dress code], can keep a lot of adolescent hate and jealousy in check.

Just because a majority of students are stupid and petty doesn't mean they should punish the lot of them.

[raggedyanne]

Eh, the middle school I went to finally instituted uniforms after too many kids got shot over gang warfare. Actually, it was only after a white kid got shot by mistake for wearing the wrong color hat . . . racist pigs.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

Just because a majority of students are stupid and petty doesn't mean they should punish the lot of them.

I agree, but in the case of my hometown, it was more a case of safetly for everyone involved...even the ones who weren't petty and jealous; innocent folks were getting seriously hurt and sometimes killed just b/c of fashion. :/ [It was because of the violence in these schools that my parents put me in a private institution during high school in the first place. Besides, even if I had gone to public school and been given a choice between being stabbed for my shoes or wearing the same uniform everyone else, I would have taken the uniform. ]

I'm all for individuality, but not at the expense of my life..

[Underwater Ophelia]

[quote=PortraitOfSanity]Your rights of free speech and self expression shouldn't end at the door to the school.

[quote]
But they do.
You DO NOT have free speech in a school.

[Benerona]

In our school, they don't say anything much, but to me, and my emo friend, teachers and others said that we musn't wear eyeliner in school, I have very black eyes then .
But they are kinda allright for dressing. Probably because I was the only goth on this school. I'm sure if there were more goths, they would ban it. They are stupid, but I hate kids there, they always say something against us -.-

[Tam Li Hua]

Eh, I don't think anyone has a great time in high school, or during their teen years in general. :/

[Solumina]

I had a great time after my freshman year (I still had some less than great friends then) so it is possible to enjoy yourself. I think the secret is to try everything that you can and stick with what you really like, not just what your friends do (ie. even though all of my friends were in the history and drama clubs I stuck with Latin club and the philosophy club because I really, really loved the clubs themselves) and to not count out anyone just because they don't seem cool/like you/whatever, especially if they are nice to you because it can be really hard to initiate new friendships but the more people that you are friendly with (even if you aren't good friends) the more likely it is that you will enjoy yourself.

[Tam Li Hua]

Yeah, I think if my high school had had cool things like that, it would have been a lot better. XD Our only choices were sports-related, unfortunately. :P

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

The extremes of that situation are insane. However, I have to say that, in general, uniforms can be a good idea.

For instance, in my hometown, a lot of kids in the public school were beating each other up over what kind of clothes or shoes or whatever that they wore. [Certain colors were considered 'gang' colors, and more expensive clothing was often stolen from those who couldn't fight.] As a result, the public school system was forced to institute uniforms in order to stop some of the fighting.

While I agree that confiscating meaningful jewelry, etc. might be going a bit far, I also think that, in the end, uniforms [and, in general, a dress code], can keep a lot of adolescent hate and jealousy in check. [It should be noted that I was going to private school during this time, and though we had a dress code, we didn't have uniforms. The 'no long hair' thing for boys is actually pretty common. In addition, a lot of private institutions don't allow girls to wear shorts/skirts more than two inches above the knee..]

Well that's not the clothing that's the problem. You can't put a mask over socio-economic inequalities and expect socio-economic inequalities to solve themselves. These things have to be confronted and putting everyone in polo shirts and khakis isn't going to solve anything profound or even begin to fix the problem at all. What uniforms do is basically pawn off the responsibility of parents and schools to actually shape our youth. To really create decent, upstanding, critically thinking citizens. Basically, "Dealing with social problems and educating the youth is too hard, so let's just silence voices and expression so that the cops can deal with it when they're older." That's what uniforms say.

If uniforms were really solving the problems people think it's solving, then why is it that I'm getting heckled by the youth for being a "fucking queer"? Shouldn't the uniform help teach the youth that differences really don't matter? Well they DON'T do that. In fact, it reinforces the idea that there CAN'T be unity amongst those who are different and that's a very very dangerous ideal that is still prevalent today in our society. The problems aren't being addressed, they're being ignored.

I'm not saying that uniforms are completely bad. I'm saying the way school systems use them is used in the wrong spirit. Uniforms shouldn't be a tool of oppression, but more an indication of unity.

[Tam Li Hua]

I agree, Kontan. I guess I'm just not sure what a good solution would be; I mean, my entire hometown is bitter at itself, for lack of a better word. :/ It's not just the schools, but those in office too.

It's just not a good place, which is why I don't live there any more.

But for places where change is possible, I completely agree with you. Though I do think it's good for schools to at least have -some- kind of dress code, and not leave -everything- to individuality. After all, the point of school is for education, ya know? It shouldn't have to be that much of a fashion contest.

[KontanKarite]

Why are people expecting it to be a fashion contest?

I actually HAD a high school experience that had a liberal dress code.

There wasn't a fashion contest at all. Sure, there were cliques, but honestly, it wasn't that bad.

The thing about the dress code was that it wasn't supposed to be too revealing and nothing endorsing hate speech. Which makes bloody sense anyway if you MUST have a dress code.

[Solumina]

I think my school pretty much had it right in regards to a dress code. We were pretty much allowed to wear whatever we wanted as long as it didn't include hateful language, skirts had to be at least ten inches long, tops and bottoms had to touch so there was no tummy showing, and straps on shirts had to be about an inch wide (mainly so that girls didn't have bra straps showing), that was it, the only problem that anyone ever had was some of the sluttier girls trying to wear skirts that were too short

[Tam Li Hua]

Yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable. My high school was similar, except the boys had to keep their hair cut short, and if someone wore a long shirt, it -had- to be tucked in.

I think if the dress code was reasonable like that [and if the students are reasonable too], then it's not a problem.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

My high school was similar, except the boys had to keep their hair cut short,

Enforcing nonsensical gender stereotypes is not reasonable.

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

Enforcing nonsensical gender stereotypes is not reasonable.

Damn, my school has uniforms and they don't even make the guys keep their hair short. It just had to be out of the face and no weird colors (they only enforced this with some of the more out-of-line students, I've gotten away with both and not a word from anyone.)

[$haDe]

My school seems fair to me
Their main target isn't really goth but punk took all of their attention

Like Sharp Mohawk, And piercing all over their faces
oh and nobody will ever forget the guy with silver needles emerged out of his cheeks.

[Kij.]

No chains, no facial piercings, [but I think just about every school has policies about piercings]. Other than that, I think everything else is okay. We'll see how it goes down next school year...

[First Fallen]

1. Skirts must go down to your knees [same with pants]
2. No fake peirceings [if they are real, they won't make you take them out]
Thats about it, I'm glad their not doing much.