God does not exist. - Page 4

$haDe · 12-12-2008, 08:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Saya

One thing I find funny is that most athiests say "I believe in science and logic," but unless you can understand and recite the math and model of the Big Bang theory and understand the physics of it in and out, and tackle it yourself, you're going on the words and faith you have in scientists. Similarily, logic is hardly infallible.

Same idea.

Big Bang theory can't be proved.

God's existence can't be proved.

I have an impression of science can be considered a religion, too.

I mean in the Big Bang theory, scienctists have their own explanations about it. The same way in ....say Buddhism's karma beliefs, what comes around - turns around.

Hmm... This is interresting.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 08:37 PM

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Originally Posted by $haDe

Big Bang theory can't be proved.

Redshift (filler)

$haDe · 12-12-2008, 08:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I am not speaking as an atheist. I am speaking as a logician.
the fact that many of you guys can't still get through your fucking heads the concept of

BURDEN OF PROOF
is physically painful to me.

It's touturing me, admitting that I'm one of the people mentioned.

Saya · 12-12-2008, 08:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Logic is by definition infallible. If you're assuming such a thing as error, then you're working within the concept of logic.

Look at a few of the better debates that took place here where each party has a good and logical point, but only one of them can be right, right? As with science, the life of a scientific theory is usually very short, before it is conclusively disproven or at least refined. Logic behind an argument can be sound but that does not necessarily mean it corresponds to reality perfectly. Logic is a tool created by humans to discover truth, and we've dug up a lot of interesting things with it and I'm not saying its useless, but its hardly infallible.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 08:45 PM

There's so much that's wrong with that.
The fact that two opposing arguments can be logical does not show deficiencies in Logic.
It means that, rarely as it happens, both arguments are actually VALID!
If an argument is not logical, it's just bullshit.

MollyMac · 12-12-2008, 08:50 PM

Burden of proof works both ways, in a sense. If you look at the studies of Heinrich Wolfflin in art history- you can sometimes only what/that prove something is by provogn what it is not or that it is not. Prove to me that the teapot isn't there.

Logic is never going to be a be-all-end-all. Many things will defy your logic during your lifetime only to be proven or disproven thereafter- yet their inconclusiveness is all you can know what you live. You cannot logically say all will be solved in terms of logic because logically speaking, they can't.

MollyMac · 12-12-2008, 08:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If an argument is not logical, it's just bullshit.

No. Really it isn't. Arguing with someone you love dearly is rarely logical, and never bullshit. Just because it does not follow a perfect line in your head does not mean that it isvalid. IT means that logic may not be th ebest or only course. Logic does not equal right.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 08:53 PM

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Originally Posted by MollyMac

Prove to me that the teapot isn't there.

You can't fucking disprove a negative
"X is true because there is no proof that X is false" is nothing but a logical fallacy, and all you can say is "no it's not"
That's both sad and infuriating.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyMac

IT means that logic may not be th ebest or only course. Logic does not equal right.

I am not wearing shoes. Therefore I must be a woman.
Prove to me otherwise.

Nice mentality. I can't believe this; aren't you all guys older than me?

MollyMac · 12-12-2008, 08:58 PM

Yes, I am older that you which is why I am well aware that logical arguments are nice, but not always the best or right course. Live with a woman you love for a while, talk to me then.

PinstripesAndPithHelmets · 12-12-2008, 09:01 PM

God may not exist, but I sometimes like to pretend he does. Makes me feel good for a while.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:01 PM

That makes no fucking sense!
You're just trying to make an argument of moral high ground which means fucking nothing, because you have nothing else to argue.

If we were talking about science, you'd say the same thing, and it would also mean nothing "science is nice and all but you can't solve a relationship with it"
That's plain idiotic.

What the fuck does a relationship have to do with anything? Science cannot fix a relationship. That doesn't mean that a problem in a relationship is going to ignore what is scientific FACT. Where the fuck would you need to ignore the law of gravity to fix a relationship.

Logic can't fix a relationship. That doesn't mean that a problem in a relationship has to ignore what is LOGICAL. Why the fuck would you need to ignore common reason to fix a relationship?

LaBelleDameSansMerci · 12-12-2008, 09:05 PM

Logic depends on what you know. For Medieval Christians, it was perfectly logical that praying in front of a picture of Saints Cosmas and Damian will cure one of the disease of one is suffering. They didn't know about viruses or bacteria, so how would they know why they got better?
Now that we do know such things, however, religion has left the realm of logic and is purely a "what feels right" thing. I think humans need something to believe in, whether that be a god or themselves or anarchy or teapots orbiting Jupiter.

And by the way, once you invest that teapot with divine power, it moves, at least partly, into the realm of the irrational. :P

PinstripesAndPithHelmets · 12-12-2008, 09:06 PM

I think she's saying that even though women are often illogical, they shit sure are right. If your SO says the sky is green and the grass is purple, then, by the god that don't exist, the sky is green and the grass is purple. 'Til she changes her mind.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:09 PM

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Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

Logic depends on what you know. For Medieval Christians, it was perfectly logical that praying in front of a picture of Saints Cosmas and Damian will cure one of the disease of one is suffering.

Please don't use words when you don't know what they mean.

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And by the way, once you invest that teapot with divine power, it moves, at least partly, into the realm of the irrational. :P

Just like giving nothingness a divinity.

Saya · 12-12-2008, 09:17 PM

I thought this was Molly's point

But anyway, since burden of proof lies with you, prove that logic is infalliable, and explain paradoxes and the fact that science is continually refining itself and disproving what it once "proved" to be true.

LaBelleDameSansMerci · 12-12-2008, 09:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Please don't use words when you don't know what they mean.

What word do I not know what it means? What would you think cures you, or doesn't cure you, if you didn't know about microorganisms?

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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Just like giving nothingness a divinity.

EXACTLY!! You can't USE logic to defend religion because it's an emotional thing, and emotion is as much a part of humanity as logic.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Saya

But anyway, since burden of proof lies with you, prove that logic is infalliable

A=A

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and explain paradoxes

Paradoxes defy intuition, not logic. What makes a paradox a paradox is that it's logically valid. Therefore it should be you who should be telling me what a paradox is if you're trying to 'disprove' logic.

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and the fact that science is continually refining itself and disproving what it once "proved" to be true.

Soundness and validity are two entirely different things.
"If I sneeze, then I'm having sex. I'm sneezing, therefore I'm having sex" That's perfectly valid because if we make the assumption that if I sneeze then I'm having sex, then that's the only logical conclusion. But it doesn't make it true.

"If I'm wearing a hat, then the sky is blue. The sky is blue, therefore I'm wearing a hat." That's not valid at all. Just because it's true that the sky is blue, it doesn't mean that the argument's true. The argument is bullshit.
And so are all these pseudo-arguments trying to pretend they know shit about reasoning when they can't understand simple burden of proof.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:26 PM

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Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

What word do I not know what it means?

Logic. It's not logical to believe praying cures diseases! There is no path of conjecture through that, therefore it's not logic. You're just using your own arbitrary definition of logic which has nothing to do with validity.

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You can't USE logic to defend religion because it's an emotional thing, and emotion is as much a part of humanity as logic.

The absolute of the universe is something emotional and subjective?
Let me tell Stephen Hawking that. Or anyone with a higher education for that matter.

$haDe · 12-12-2008, 09:28 PM

Hmmm... I just can't get the

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

BURDEN OF PROOF

idea out of my head.

12-12-2008, 09:32 PM

you cant say with any certainty if there isnt a god anymore than you can say with any certainty that there is one.

All you can do is present your case and say what you believe. personally i do not believe in god but at the same time i know that there are just as many arguments for and against, and really none of us knows anything about anything. we all have theories and stuff, but no one actually knows how the world works and the best way to run it.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch

you cant say with any certainty if there isnt a god anymore than you can say with any certainty that there is one.

You know what? Fuck this.
It's like talking to a wall.

You say this bullshit. I tell you why it's logically wrong; not even that it's factually wrong - simply that you can't use that for a legitimate argument.

So you fucking repeat it again?!

Read a fucking book. You all have just proven exactly the dangers of religion despite your pathetic rationalizations that it makes people happy.
If religion can convince you that logic and reasoning mean nothing, then I understand why I really want to get rid of it altogether.
There's no greater danger in the world than the willingness to stop fucking thinking

12-12-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You know what? Fuck this.
It's like talking to a wall.

You say this bullshit. I tell you why it's logically wrong; not even that it's factually wrong - simply that you can't use that for a legitimate argument.

So you fucking repeat it again?!

Read a fucking book. You all have just proven exactly the dangers of religion despite your pathetic rationalizations that it makes people happy.
If religion can convince you that logic and reasoning mean nothing, then I understand why I really want to get rid of it altogether.
There's no greater danger in the world than the willingness to stop fucking thinking

Just because you tell me its logically wrong doesnt make it logically wrong.

telling me to read a fucking book is just insulting and when you throw insults in an argument clearly your losing it. i have proved nothing either, i simply said that no one has the answer to anything. none of us actually know how the world works. at one point it was believed that we could breed out genetic defects with eugenics but that led to one of the worst atrocities in human history. at the time it seemed the logical thing to do.

there is more to life than logic and we are not vulcans. we are human beings and we are just as ignorant as we were 500 years ago. just because we can fly to the moon and can post on the internet doesnt make us any more smart. i think your obsession with logic has made you a little bit wierd and insulting. do you get this angry IRL with people? you must be quite bitter inside.

Godslayer Jillian · 12-12-2008, 09:45 PM

I get this angry with people in real life when they stop to fucking think.

If you think that "A therefore B. There is no A therefore we can't say there is B" is complicated, then I pity you.

$haDe · 12-12-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch

you cant say with any certainty if there isnt a god anymore than you can say with any certainty that there is one.

All you can do is present your case and say what you believe. personally i do not believe in god but at the same time i know that there are just as many arguments for and against, and really none of us knows anything about anything. we all have theories and stuff, but no one actually knows how the world works and the best way to run it.

I think somebody brought this up already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

The absolute of the universe is something emotional and subjective?

If you ask me, I'll say ... it's more like how you look at it.

We all have our point to stand and one of the reasons made us arguing is...

HOW YOU LOOK AT IT