If this is Goth, then I hate Goth.

[Amledo]

Who cares about god's perfection or cruelty? If he doesn't have any visible effect on our day to day, then why should he have a slot in our conversation? But neither is cruelty perfect, it has its flaws, people get over it, or see something worse and suddenly it doesn't matter quite as much. Nothing in life is perfect, and I think it is time that we admit that.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Actually that would make a lot of sense. Look for Sir Francis Bacon's 'Of Regimen and Health'.
If moderation is always good, why not moderation in our own personality?
After all, we're always saying not to take ourselves so seriously.

I will have to look that up and see if that's available in the bookstores here. Seems like a reading I shouldn't pass up. Many thanks.

[manequin]

Goth should be about what you make it. The whole idea is being original and different. It roots with gothic archutecture and medieval style clothing but from there on it's what you make it. If we make goths all the same so they must listen to the same music and bands arn't we as bad as the maintstream we abandoned? Don't complain about anothers perception of goth unless it is offensive. Oh and by the way I get you with the HIM thing but I quite like them. I''ve only got the album and love said no but from what I've heard there pretty ok ~(not my favorite band at all but ok)

[Godslayer Jillian]

Eh, I wouldn't say it's medieval style clothing, as that would be colorful and uncomfortable clothes that don't flow with each other.
To me, goth is just an umbrella term for a musical style, slightly influencing fashion.
If a goth is smart, he's a smart goth.
If a goth is artistic, he's an artistic goth.
Goth is an adjective, not a goal, and anything else beside music that can be applied to the word Goth is only an agreed norm within the subculture.
I do like those norms; the gothic subculture is overall smarter than the average, and a hell of a lot more pretentious XD
But goth in itself shouldn't be praised as a higher state of mind.
And, Valerius, don't look for Of Regimen and Health in a bookstore. Look for it on the internet. It's only a short essay, no bigger than two pages, actually.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I will have to look that up and see if that's available in the bookstores here. Seems like a reading I shouldn't pass up. Many thanks.

The only book that it is in that I know of is "Essays and New Atlantis".
Get the whole book, because the whole of the Essays is profound, of which "Of Regimen of Health" is but a part. Other parts are cool too:
"Of Atheism", "Of Cunning", "Of Truth" etc.

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

And she will never know she is wrong.

oh yes she is
Trust me in a year she will, after being beat up by real goths a couple of times
It happened before

[mooncradle]

Aside from all the "what's goth or not" dicussions I have to say her using long words in order to sound smart or deeply thoughtful just annoys me.
I mean you can use all the long words you like, but if you're talking to people with average intelligence in the literary field and with only a small vocabulary it's not going to mean anything.
Being able to discuss the nature of love etc doesn't indicate intelligence to me, it indicates someone who's not all that spontaneous. A little discussion like that's okay but she seems to have spent hours thinking about it and thinking it makes her sound "deep" and "smart". I'd be far less annoyed if she'd just talked like a normal person having a normal conversation like it started off as.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Firestorm

Please tell me the universal definition of goth.

It's defined as much as what is isn't as to what it actually is.

The easiest, quickest, and best way to find out is: to find your local goth venue, that has real shows with notable artists, and visit those venues.

You may find lists, websites, books, even telly shows about what is or isn't 'goth', but the only way to truly know is to go there and participate.

If you have to ask, then you haven't been there yet.

If you have been there, well, you already know.

Yes, it is a personal culture/lifestyle choice, however, it is one that requires some level of recognition from others within the scene which you must physically interact with at some point to truly become an active 'participant' (for lack of a better term).

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

I disagree, in my own philosophies, that there's nothing poetic or artistic about being goth. Other then describing a goth by using darkly inclined or someone who respects darkness and that to which is shunned, it could be described as someone who appreicates poetry, art, etc. I believe we are poetic in our beliefs and philosophies, or if not, appreicative toward that matter.

[Lykaios]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I hate what people have made out of Goth.
This time I'm not talking about the ones that think Slipknot and Hot Topic are goth.
I'm talking about the other side of the coin.
The people that think that goth equates with art and believe that their gothiness was a Gods-given-gift that makes them beings better than the regular person.
Goth should stay as a musical style and that's it. At the most influencing fashion style.
In literature it should be a fucking adjective, not the 'essence of gothy writing that pours like ink from your soul to the paper'

If you want to write poetry, be a fuckin' poet! There's nothing poetical about being goth.
Some artists can call themselves goth. Being goth doesn't give you a free pass to be considered an artist.
A>B doesn't equal B>A
I hate those moronic beings that call themselves artists.
What's so fucking artistic about writing about vampires and death?
If someone believes being goth gives you superpowers to know the meaning of life and instantaneously transforms your writings from shit to 'tortured poetry' I'm going to shoot you.

Oh, I couldn't agree more strongly with that. People call me an elitist because of it, too. It's bloody annoying.

[Lykaios]

Originally Posted by mooncradle

Aside from all the "what's goth or not" dicussions I have to say her using long words in order to sound smart or deeply thoughtful just annoys me.
I mean you can use all the long words you like, but if you're talking to people with average intelligence in the literary field and with only a small vocabulary it's not going to mean anything.
Being able to discuss the nature of love etc doesn't indicate intelligence to me, it indicates someone who's not all that spontaneous. A little discussion like that's okay but she seems to have spent hours thinking about it and thinking it makes her sound "deep" and "smart". I'd be far less annoyed if she'd just talked like a normal person having a normal conversation like it started off as.

I think this quote goes good here.

"It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to." - Holden Caulfield

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

I believe we are poetic in our beliefs and philosophies, or if not, appreicative toward that matter.

I agree with that. But it comes again to the A>B doesn't equal B>A.
The fact that goths are attracted to these doesn't mean that poets and philosophers are all goths, which is basically what the people I'm ranting about believe.
You know the type: They say Shakespeare would have been goth, and that only their poetry expresses true emotion, because we all know loneliness if the only emotion.
A forum I also frequent is just like that. Their section of writing is marred with nothing but 'I want to die' 'No one cares about me' 'Life is meaningless'
Makes a nihilist want to vomit.
We should make a name for these guys.

[Draconysius]

The only thing that can be ascertained about the goth 'mindset' is that all goths have a decadent -or dark, but beautiful- aesthetic. Of course you can't be a goth without a liking to goth music, just like you can't be a punk without a liking to punk music. After all, goth as it is today is based on a musical genre.

I believe, however, there are those that can be "goth-minded", but not goths. People like Edgar Allan Poe, Neil Gaiman, maybe some painters like Edvard Munch or Dali might be considered goth-minded for their aesthetics, but they've never heard a piece of goth music in ther life, so they're oviously not goth.

[ArtificialOne]

Hm.. I think I will start a thread about each individuals trip to gothiness .....

[Aaroneet]

By this argument, every recording artist is Goth simply because they make music. As for the writing, it's not only the themes in "Goth", but the quality of it. Whether it's hollow or not. I've read my share of poems, in particular, that were simply transparent, but otherwise fine pieces.

[Lady_Lacrimosa_Umbrae]

Something that I haven't still managed to understand is why posers get soooooo heated up when you tell them that their music is not Goth. I mainly listen to band that are considered "truly goth" (I know this doen's make much sense, but please try to understand my point) such as Siouxie, the Cure, Bauhaus, Lacrimosa, etc... but I do listen to a lot of music that has nothing to do with "goth", and I enjoy it.

What I mean with this is that the fact that something is not gothic does not mean its quality is bad, and I don't understand why many posers take it as if it did.

[MollyMac]

Why does it matter at all? Like what you like, do what you do. Do not like something because it is in a category.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

A forum I also frequent is just like that. Their section of writing is marred with nothing but 'I want to die' 'No one cares about me' 'Life is meaningless'
Makes a nihilist want to vomit.
We should make a name for these guys.

Already done, they're called emo.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Yeah.... read the thread on emo...

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

The only thing that can be ascertained about the goth 'mindset' is that all goths have a decadent -or dark, but beautiful- aesthetic. Of course you can't be a goth without a liking to goth music, just like you can't be a punk without a liking to punk music. After all, goth as it is today is based on a musical genre.

I believe, however, there are those that can be "goth-minded", but not goths. People like Edgar Allan Poe, Neil Gaiman, maybe some painters like Edvard Munch or Dali might be considered goth-minded for their aesthetics, but they've never heard a piece of goth music in ther life, so they're oviously not goth.

It's like with diseases there is the flu then there is bacterial meningitis. They both have similar symptoms but there is a definite difference between the two.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Yeah.... read the thread on emo...

I know it's a stereotype, but it's the title given to them.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

I know it's a stereotype, but it's the title given to them.

Uh-huh, and the stereotype given to us right now is homicidal maniacs with trench coats.

Fuck that.

[Lapin]

(holds head) Owwwwwww.......her logic makes my head hurt......

(wrinkles nose) I don't like it when people use big words to make themselves sound smarter, when in reality, a simpler word would be more appropriate in the first place.

(Damn, the song 'Jillian' is stuck in my head now...)

[biohazard]

The conversation was rather stupid, but the gender of the person is still a mystery, after having read the conversation.

[Ishkabibble]

The person seemed to just be jotting down big words without really knowing what they meant. Her writting was confusing to understand, big time in my case.
Just because you know big words it doesn't mean that you're automatically smarter. You can be a poohead and know big words at the same time, but you use them in an uncomprehensible manner.