The abortion clinic down the street from me...

[Underwater Ophelia]

Just so you all know, the pictures were accurate.

[ionic_angel]

Yes, they are. And that's one of the things I've never liked about the abortion industry...they aren't too open about all the risks and dangers. For example, I suggest you check out the psychological problems a lot of these women come away with, or the chances that the procedure will render them infertile.

[DeathToLems]

I use the pill and a condom.
But anyways. I believe you should be able to make your own choice.
How can someone as young as 14 know what the hell to do if she had a baby at that age? shes still a baby herself! she has the right to live her own life before she has to go looking after another life. But thats just what I think.
In the end its the girl going through the process not me.
My friend got preggy a while ago. She got an abortion and im guessing she was happy that she still had the chance to grow up a bit more before she makes that mistake again. Shame though. She axcedently got preggy again and is keeping it now. Sept this time she was hoping that the guy shes with would actually help her during the pregnancy. Nope hes a right prick and acts as if he dont care. It seems shes only staying with him because of the baby. My point is, her life has gone downhill since the moment she got preggy again. I told her she had a choice when she found out but she held on hopping for the best. I feel so sorry for her. Shes due April 4th. I hope her bf grows some balls and actually help her care for this baby!

[Mir]

Why do Pro-Life people want to enforce their ideas and opinions on other people? Pro-Life? Anti-Choice is what you are.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Mir

Why do Pro-Life people want to enforce their ideas and opinions on other people?

Aren't you against capital punishment? How about animal rights?

[CptSternn]

What I always find is ironic is that most of those who are pro-life only care about the child until its born. After that they don't want to help fund its birth, rearing, or health care. Then later in life if the child breaks the law they support sending it to the electric chair.

Those same people also support shooting/bombing/killing doctors who are pro-choice.

I guess their message should be more 'we think all life is valuable...for 9 months - then we support killing you for many different reasons'.

[AngelikDemonik]

I don't know, guys...

I drove past the clinic last week, and these people had their children playing outside infront of it. Might I add, it's on a major street, loaded with semi-trucks getting off of a freeway. How is that pro-life?

[blackwater1110]

I totally agree that pro-life is a misnomer, but so is pro-choice. They are both ways of attempting, inaccurately, to encapsulate an apparently homogeneous position. Anyone who has looked at this issue at all knows it is by no means black and white; thus, terms like pro-life or pro-choice are ultimately irrelevant unless you pertain to an ideological polarity.

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

Oh come off it you all! The man standing "right in front of the clinic" with gruesome, probably inaccurate photos who, along with others who share his views, harasses girls going into to a public building is not only being offensive, but there is no way you can describe his form of protesting as peaceful! You've already agreed that he and others are breaking local laws by where their standing and by being a public nuisance! It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with him, the man is quite rude in the way he's attempting to get his message across.

I am pro-choice. It is my belief that a woman should be able to choose what she wants to do with her body and what's in it. It is also my personal belief that no one should force their opinions onto others.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, but in either case I always support the right to protest, even with gory photos and ignorant, god-based diatribes. I wouldn't deny an Iraq veteran the right to show gory pictures of what the war has done to him or his friends, so why would I deny it to another group? I'm not drawing a parallel between the two situations, only pointing out that if explicit material is allowed for one form of protest, it must be allowed for another. As for my reasoning behind letting fundamentalists yammer endlessly about hell for people who abort and other such garbage, my belief in freedom of speech is that even the idiots must be allowed to speak freely, because there is not justification for censoring one person's freedom of speech over another's. You just have to hope that after you've both shouted your message until you are hoarse, that the public has the good sense to be persuaded by the more truthful of the two messages.

raggedyanne, the only thing I found ridiculous with your opining was the belief that no-one should force their opinions onto others. In actuality, you are spinning words to make it seem like they are invading your personal space, but your opinion presupposes that it is POSSIBLE to force your opinions onto others. I've looked into CIA brainwashing and torture techniques and even in those cases, it was impossible to get people to change their mind, especially in the long-term; once the effects wore off, they reverted to their original mindset. In a much less extreme environment, one of protest, no-one is going to be able to force their opinion onto you. You have the amazing capacity to make your own decisions as well as form your own opinions on a conscious level, so until the pro-life campaign starts bombarding you with subliminal messages, their protesting is fair game.

What ISN'T fair game, however, are these protesters' proximity to the clinic. If they are huddled in the doorway to the clinic so you have to go right through them to go into the clinic, that's not only unreasonable, but possibly dangerous, given the history of violence this group has had, as outlied in previous posts. I'm unsure what criteria should be used to determine where it is OK for them to protest, but it seems self-evident that where they are protesting now is unjust.

[DeathToLems]

Since reading this topic I've realised why there is a security person outside the clinic I goto. I never thought that is had anything to do with keeping protesters away. huh Oo

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Personally, I have to say I am grieved about the way these - and many other pro-life protesters - act. But I must also say that I have protested myself, because I do believe that an unborn human is still a human. I cannot ethically justify within myself a course of action which results in the death of an innocent human being.

But, when I protested, I protested with others who shared my views, quietly, politely, and not on the property of an abortion clinic. Still, I can see the viewpoint of the protesters there: if abortion does kill a human, a clinic is little different than the gas chambers and crematoriums in a death camp.

But we will never convince people to not take these courses of action by throwing rocks, or being obnoxious. Rather, I, and most of the pro-life people I know, seek to provide alternatives for pregnant women, and I personally find no fault with birth control that does not cause death to a human embryo. Many of us volunteer our time and energy for organizations that seek to help pregnant women and offer alternatives to abortion, and I have seen them do much good.

I was adopted. My mother could have chosen abortion, but she did not, and I am eternally grateful for that. To be denied the experiences of life is a tragedy, and I believe that the only reason more people don't see it that way is because they haven't come to grips with that.

A sense of perspective when encountering those you do not agree with is a priceless commodity that far too few seem to possess in this day and age. A reasoned disagreement with someone else is still disagreement - you have not compromised your principles...and what have you lost if you discover that the other side is not as irreconcilable to your own position as you thought?

I like you

Originally Posted by CptSternn

What I always find is ironic is that most of those who are pro-life only care about the child until its born. After that they don't want to help fund its birth, rearing, or health care. Then later in life if the child breaks the law they support sending it to the electric chair.

Those same people also support shooting/bombing/killing doctors who are pro-choice.

I guess their message should be more 'we think all life is valuable...for 9 months - then we support killing you for many different reasons'.

That is a MAJOR generalization.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Aren't you against capital punishment? How about animal rights?

I'm all for capital punishment.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Then let's talk about animal rights. Don't you care about unnecessary killing of animals?

[Mir]

So you're saying abortions are unnecessary?

[Godslayer Jillian]

If you simply followed where I'm getting at - or more easily, read Drake's post - you'd see where I am going.
Your opinion is entirely irrelevant and close-minded. They are anti-choice? Because you're pro-choice? How come you're not anti-life? You're just spewing out rhetoric because you don't like their stance.
And why would they not enforce their convictions unto others when they believe not doing so leads to innocent deaths?
This is why I asked you about animal rights. If you see someone clubbing a seal, you would simply not say anything because it is their decision?
If you don't like clubbing seals, then don't do it. You're not pro-seals by wanting them to stop brutally massacring them to death. You're anti-choice because you don't accept their choice of clubbing them.

[raggedyanne]

If you believe that an abortion for any reason is immoral and should be illegal, then do your beliefs give you the right to prevent a woman carrying a child with defects - who will die before or soon after birth - from aborting and saving herself the pain of carrying a doomed child within her womb. my description may sound a bit melodramatic, but that's the situation my mom was faced with a few years back. She was able to abort, but I seriously doubt she would have been able to survive the emotion pain of a stillbirth or of watching her newborn die.

And just putting a question out there: When do you think a fetus becomes a "human." My bio teacher asked us this and it spawned an interesting a civil discussion. Let's hope you all can answer the question without dropping below the maturity level of fifteen year olds.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

If you believe that an abortion for any reason is immoral and should be illegal, then do your beliefs give you the right to prevent a woman carrying a child with defects - who will die before or soon after birth - from aborting and saving herself the pain of carrying a doomed child within her womb.

Therefore all abortions should be allowed.

[Mir]

My response was purely a reciprocal one (pro-life) and as I am wont to do, it will always be at the opposing end of the spectrum. My comment was not meant to elicit a response, so to me, your comments in response to mine are completely irrelevant.

To add, it was meant to highlight the extreme close mindedness of the idea of Pro Life. THAT is why I went with the exact opposite of it.

[Godslayer Jillian]

It is impossible to declare an abstract opinion such as pro-life, close-minded. Pro-life is simply the denomination of the belief that all conceptions deserve to carry out naturally, and variations of this essential core.
There is nothing close-minded about that and you only call it close-minded because of your own bias against it.

[Mir]

I'm close minded. Anything else?

[Godslayer Jillian]

You're also obstinate. If you don't want people to disagree with you in a dialectical manner, why post in a discussion board in the first place?

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Mir

I'm close minded. Anything else?

I don't see myself disagreeing with anything there. Do you?

[blackwater1110]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

If you believe that an abortion for any reason is immoral and should be illegal, then do your beliefs give you the right to prevent a woman carrying a child with defects - who will die before or soon after birth - from aborting and saving herself the pain of carrying a doomed child within her womb. my description may sound a bit melodramatic, but that's the situation my mom was faced with a few years back. She was able to abort, but I seriously doubt she would have been able to survive the emotion pain of a stillbirth or of watching her newborn die.

And just putting a question out there: When do you think a fetus becomes a "human." My bio teacher asked us this and it spawned an interesting a civil discussion. Let's hope you all can answer the question without dropping below the maturity level of fifteen year olds.

Storaged

The spine, a line, the fetus is mine,
Don't forget me
Don't forget me
Don't forget me
Don't forget revolt,
Revolt,
Revolution, counter revolution
Counter counter revolution
The mind,
Mind the mind that feeds the blind,
And helps you find,
And makes you bind,
The game,
Is on,
The game is on, the game is on,
The game is on, the game is on,

The spine, a line the fetus is mine (x 4)

A life, denied,
Comatosis, comatosis, comatosis,
Comment on my word, define,
My words define, my words define,
My words define, my words define
The line, the line,
Revolution, counter revolution,
Counter counter revolution,
Solution,
Dissillusioned by pollution,
Resolution starting with the

Spine, a line the fetus is mine,
The spine, a line the fetus is mine(x 6).

[raggedyanne]

Beautiful, but I fail to see how it relates to the quoted post.

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

If you believe that an abortion for any reason is immoral and should be illegal, then do your beliefs give you the right to prevent a woman carrying a child with defects - who will die before or soon after birth - from aborting and saving herself the pain of carrying a doomed child within her womb. my description may sound a bit melodramatic, but that's the situation my mom was faced with a few years back. She was able to abort, but I seriously doubt she would have been able to survive the emotion pain of a stillbirth or of watching her newborn die.

And just putting a question out there: When do you think a fetus becomes a "human." My bio teacher asked us this and it spawned an interesting a civil discussion. Let's hope you all can answer the question without dropping below the maturity level of fifteen year olds.

When it can survive outside of the mother's uterus, which is around 5 1/2-6 months. Granted, it's going to have to be in the NICU and have a boatload of medical problems.

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

have a boatload of medical problems.

My mom is a NICU nurse.. babies at 22 weeks can be and have been saved with no long term problems.