So, I was reading the 'Jesus Saves' thread...

[Mir]

No one is arguing anything other than;

Until you can prove, without ANY doubt, the existence/nonexistence of God, everything remains subjective and not factual.

Other than that, all we are trying to do is get an orgy going here. If God exists, he is welcome to come and join us. We do not discriminate.

[Tha Duckman]

What Mir said.

[Does things to Mir that are illegal in certain countries].

[Silvara]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I don't know what you're trying to fight, because I've been, appropriately, consistent all through my arguments.

Speaking of being consistent about liking/not liking unicorns does not make you consistent. It makes you sound like your pulling shit out of your ass to win an argument that CANNOT BE WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone has their own god damn views and opinions, what makes YOURS correct (or "consistent", as you so like to use) over mine? Over Duckman's? Over Mir's? Over Honeythorn's, and anyone else on this thread? Anyone who is spiritual, OR NOT, will think they have a valid argument. Like Duckman said, your trying to sound intelligent about something you have NO solid facts on. No one really does.

Throughout eternity, people have "consistently" believed in a higher power. So if your only argument is consistency, you would be considered wrong, no? I have no problem with Atheists, Christians, Muslims, no religion. But when you start saying you think your RIGHT and everyone else is basically a moron for believing what they do, it gets under my skin and Duckman is right, it makes you sound like a douche.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

But there's nothing to correct in here, nothing to apologize, except maybe for making some people feel offended by my anthitheism, but I won't apologize for that.

You don't need to apologize Jillian, and don't stop being the way you are, you actually help me to sharpen the sword of the Spirit!

If I can be beaten by or call a draw with the best, then I can beat the average and certainly the worst! (Like Zavuwrong)

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Silvara

Speaking of being consistent about liking/not liking unicorns does not make you consistent. It makes you sound like your pulling shit out of your ass to win an argument that CANNOT BE WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone has their own god damn views and opinions, what makes YOURS correct (or "consistent", as you so like to use) over mine? Over Duckman's? Over Mir's? Over Honeythorn's, and anyone else on this thread? Anyone who is spiritual, OR NOT, will think they have a valid argument. Like Duckman said, your trying to sound intelligent about something you have NO solid facts on. No one really does.

Throughout eternity, people have "consistently" believed in a higher power. So if your only argument is consistency, you would be considered wrong, no? I have no problem with Atheists, Christians, Muslims, no religion. But when you start saying you think your RIGHT and everyone else is basically a moron for believing what they do, it gets under my skin and Duckman is right, it makes you sound like a douche.

Wow, I feel surrounded by idiots.
Listen closely:
I'm not talking here about consistency in a system of beliefs. I was talking to Mir about the nature of an opinion.
Can you get that?

Many systems of beliefs are consistent. That doesn't make them right. If someone believes we are part of one and of all, and doesn't start talking about individuality, that's pretty much consistent. That doesn't mean it's real; that it's true.
If you cannot understand that, I don't know how to put it in simpler terms. And I'm serious; this is not a personal attack, I'm just surprised you cannot understand the difference between such simple concepts.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Valrys

I can't remember where the hell I heard this quote, but it seems fitting here, so I'll remember it best I can:
"Religion is a candle inside a multicoloured lamp. Everyone looks through a different colour at the candle, but the candle is always there."

I like "different but equal glimpses of the same untruth".

[Silvara]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Many systems of beliefs are consistent. That doesn't make them right. If someone believes we are part of one and of all, and doesn't start talking about individuality, that's pretty much consistent. That doesn't mean it's real; that it's true.

Well now your contradicting what you said before...

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

That there was no contradiction in anything I said. There's no error.
I don't know what you're trying to fight, because I've been, appropriately, consistent all through my arguments.

How could there be no error when YOU are consistent, but errors when other people are? Its as if your saying, "Their my opinions, and only my opinions count, not yours or anyone elses. I make no mistakes." Do not talk to me like I am a child dear, when you've yet to have a solid argument in this thread. You keep re-wording your first argument, and then change the meanings to make yourself sound right.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I was talking to Mir about the nature of an opinion.

No shit. That has been the entire context of this argument. Opinions.

[Silvara]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

I like "different but equal glimpses of the same untruth".

I like that too, its clever...

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Silvara

Well now your contradicting what you said before...

Show me

How could there be no error when YOU are consistent, but errors when other people are?

Perfect example is yourself. My example of the unicorns was perfect to explain the difference between consistency and soundness. So long as you don't contradict yourself, you are consistent, but the fact that you don't contradict yourself doesn't mean that you're right if your premises are still wrong. Yet you didn't understand this. I am right because i have made all my arguments based on certain premises without fault. If someone can prove me something based on plausible premises step by step then it would be impossible for me to disagree. I never said "all people are wrong". I have only implied "all religions are wrong" because they have yet to prove me otherwise. I'm the person that's starting on 0 regarding religion; they have to prove me they're right just as I have to prove you the consistency and soundness of my argument. Now please just read it well because everything I'm saying is just stuff I have already said.

You keep re-wording your first argument, and then change the meanings to make yourself sound right.

Really? Check the fucking dictionary:
Valid- 1: having legal efficacy or force; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities <a valid contract>2 a: well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory> b: logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>3: appropriate to the end in view : effective <every craft has its own valid methods>
Sound- 2: solid, firm; also : stable3 a: free from error, fallacy, or misapprehension <sound reasoning> b: exhibiting or based on thorough knowledge and experience <sound scholarship> c: legally valid <a sound title> d: logically valid and having true premises e: agreeing with accepted views : orthodox
I have done nothing but try to teach you the difference, which you have yet to grasp. Fuck, read the Wikipedia even, if you will
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity
An argument is deductively valid if, whenever all premises are true, the conclusion is also necessarily true

No shit. That has been the entire context of this argument. Opinions.

See? That proves that whatever I say you still refuse to get it through your head. Opinions is not the context; it's the tool. In this thread we were stating opinions, not talking about what it means to have an opinion. Otherwise what, are you telling me for everything you say, from what's there to eat, what's your favorite sexual position, and what's the fallacy with Keynesian economics, the theme is always Opinion? No. It's Food, Sex, and Economics, respectively.

[Godslayer Jillian]

In any case, we have to stop talking about this and get back to the topic of the thread.
I know I haven't committed a logical fallacy, and if you want to keep trying to find one, then open a new thread and give me the specific examples to back up your claims.
As for this thread, I will re-post my last post relevant to religion before all this bullshit where people can't follow an argument.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Yeah, I never denied it.

Factual and philosophical backing. I really don't mind bible pushers, except that they're wrong. I most definitely prefer them to the "respect their beliefs" pussies. At least bible pushers know exactly where they stand. The thing is, when directly questioned or confronted, their answers are always lacking and hollow. But so do politically correct people; generally they don't talk about their religion to others fearing they might be wrong.
Fuck, if you discovered the secret of life, would you keep it to yourself just so that other people can believe they already got it right?
Let's take that a step further, and closer to the bible-pusher mentality. If you knew New Guinea would nuke Cincinnati if people in Oregon don't start wearing ADIDAS, would you do nothing about it because "people just might not like wearing ADIDAS?"

Don't use the same questions for people starting at zero. You cannot disprove a negative. The burden of proof is on the ones that claim something, not the ones that don't.

[honeythorn]

Why should anyone prove anything to you? Espescially when they aren't trying to get you to believe what they do? What difference does it make to you?

[Silvara]

From wikipedia - "When an argument is set forth to prove that its conclusion is true (as opposed to probably true), then the argument is intended to be deductive. An argument set forth to show that its conclusion is probably true may be regarded as inductive. To say that an argument is valid is to say that the conclusion really does follow from the premises. That is, an argument is valid precisely when it cannot possibly lead from true premises to a false conclusion." And how the fuck can you prove your argument is true? You cant. So your argument is not valid.

You think your right, I think your wrong. I think I'm right, you think I'm wrong. Those are opinions. I can't prove your wrong, you cannot prove that I am wrong. This is a LOSE:LOSE situation. The whole argument started because two Atheists (yourself and Gothicus) were attacking Honeythorn's Pagan beliefs with what you feel is logic. Which Ive got to say is complete and total bullshit on both of your parts. Who the hell are you to say that our Pagan beliefs are stupid? Do you see us going around calling you idiots because you believe in absolutely no deity? No. Your welcome to your "opinions", but their not opinions anymore when they become a personal attack.

What I have gotten from your overall argument, is that you seem to think all religions are stupid, and unless you have some hardcore proof (deity appearing before your eyes and speaking to you), you think anyone with personal beliefs are morons. If I choose to hold wheat and the harvests sacred, and worshipped Demeter in my kitchen, would you think me an idiot? Probably. To each his own. That is my opinion. I'm not judging you for being an Atheist, don't judge me or anyone else for having religious beliefs. Believe whatever the hell you want, and I will also.

Its tiring to argue with a pompous ass. So I am finished here.

[Xombie]

**Off topic!

For the first time, I actually read through one of these huge blocks of text. I'm not much interested in this topic.

Please, Silvara, for my sake (and because I'm sweet), work on using the correct forms of "your" and "you're," and also "there," "their" and "they're." I get confused as hell until I figure out the context. Thanks, duuuuude.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Silvara

The whole argument started because two Atheists (yourself and Gothicus) were attacking Honeythorn's Pagan beliefs with what you feel is logic.

Actually it was just Gothicus asking pagans in general why they believe what they do and how is it any better/different ect for them. I answered that already.

[Breathless Horror]

Originally Posted by Silvara

Do you see us going around calling you idiots because you believe in absolutely no deity? No.

Just for the record. I get that kind of shit ALL the fucking time. From Pagans, Muslims, Christians, Jew, even the fucking Agnostics.

[Mir]

I don't know how that happens. With me;

Someone: What/Who do you believe in?
Me: None of your fucking business.

That usually also ends the conversation with said person.

[Breathless Horror]

Fair enough. I'm usually open enough to tell people I don't believe in a higher power, and find the whole idea rather silly. I have nothing agianst people who are spiritual or religious in any way, I would just be a lot happier if they felt the same way about me.

[Cyberbat]

In response to the first post.

Let me explain something about Paganism.

Its a very broad term, it includes several different types of belief. Some believe in one god, some many, and rest believe in the power of will/energy.

My view.
Gods, whether few or many, are just representations of power within ourselves. When we call upon them we are only drawing up an image to help us focus on that energy or "power" within ourselves. In other words, I follow the will power view.

Now why did I throw away the belief system of my parents for a Wiccan one? The wiccan one made sense, it gave me the feeling of being complete, it makes me happy, and it works for me.

I have studied several different religions, and at the core they are all the exact same. Every one tries to tell us to be happy, be nice to each other and don't screw things up too much.

So I really don't think it matters what religion you are, just what you are doing with it. I'm happy with mine because it fits me. I prefer respecting nature, studying herbs, and having hot oil baths to sitting in a church for 4 hours (my parents are/were mormon) listing to people babble on.

I guess thats my problem with most Christian religons. They talk, and talk, and talk, and talk...

[honeythorn]

In that case Breathless I feel sorry for you, if you live in a place where you get that often.

I only get hassle when I am in the city. And then it's only an Evangelical Christian shouting through his megaphone ( always the same man ) while his gaggle of followers try to nab you and wave their religion under my nose, or Scientologists offering a " stress test " . Usually I just give them that look and make an obvious swerve away from them, or politely shake my head and say no thanks. And all that time I never have a single pentacle showing.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Cyberbat

In response to the first post.

Let me explain something about Paganism.

Its a very broad term, it includes several different types of belief. Some believe in one god, some many, and rest believe in the power of will/energy.

My view.
Gods, whether few or many, are just representations of power within ourselves. When we call upon them we are only drawing up an image to help us focus on that energy or "power" within ourselves. In other words, I follow the will power view.

Now why did I throw away the belief system of my parents for a Wiccan one? The wiccan one made sense, it gave me the feeling of being complete, it makes me happy, and it works for me.

I have studied several different religions, and at the core they are all the exact same. Every one tries to tell us to be happy, be nice to each other and don't screw things up too much.

So I really don't think it matters what religion you are, just what you are doing with it. I'm happy with mine because it fits me. I prefer respecting nature, studying herbs, and having hot oil baths to sitting in a church for 4 hours (my parents are/were mormon) listing to people babble on.

I guess thats my problem with most Christian religons. They talk, and talk, and talk, and talk...

I like you already. And completely agree.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

Why can't we all get along!??!

[Cyberbat]

Originally Posted by Stormtrooper of Death

Why can't we all get along!??!

Its a human thing.

[Valrys]

Originally Posted by Cyberbat

Its a human thing.

Humans have been not getting along with each other since forever.

Its one thing we seem to be very good at. Unfortunately

[Stormtrooper of Death]

This is true, I'd just thought that it'd be funny to say.

[Breathless Horror]

I find that it's a shame we can't just all leave each other the fuck alone.

Honeythorne: I go to a catholic school, so it's a little more stupid there than most places.