President

[.BatteryPoison.]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Tis not shite.

What I called shit, which was the twisting of Karl Rove's analogy by Kerry and the author (I'm arguing nothing further at this point), is. Kerry's retorts made an argument out of half the man's sentence (the other half being key to context). That's a Michael Moore move.

[Andy_X69]

Not an American, but if I were id Vote for Badnarik. Bush and Kerry both suck.

http://www.local6.com/politics/3019722/detail.html

For those of you behind on the issues, and who is for what. It's getting really difficult to seperate the shit from the shite on the radio these days, so maybe this will help someone.

p.s. issue 10 is the deal breaker for me. Issue 10, most noteably, the Patriot Act, has caused me to kick myself in the ass more than once these past few years. Still, I can do my small part and make ammends for my mistake. I believe Franklin was right, and my civil liberties are too precious to roll over and let someone take them away.

Be informed, cast a vote.

[gingerbreadwench]

Thanks, TStone! I was pretty behind...

On that site though... when I read that Bush says that hate crimes should not apply to gays, I LITERALLY fell out of my chair.

So, yes. Still voting for Kerry.

[CptSternn]

Good post T.

The Patriot Act is one of many reasons I'm leaving this country fer a while. Outta here next Friday on a plane back across the pond.

*joy*

[.BatteryPoison.]

"There's what Kerry says, and there's what Kerry does." - A 527 Ad.

Kerry's a crowd pleaser. He'll say anything that will make him more popular with the American public (Bush Bashing), which isn't always what he backs in actuality (i.e. "Yes we did the right thing going to war with Iraq, even with the evidence we have today" vs a month later "We fought the wrong war at the wrong time."). The man's constant waffling, weighed with his prior voting record (which is absolutely horrible and shows inconsistancy) make it hard to really believe that's what Kerry's going to do. He's taken both sides to all of these issues several times durring his early campaign and he's continuing to change still (i.e. our presence in Iraq).


Although, I especially like this one; "Supports allowing undocumented immigrants to legalize their status if they have been in United States for certain period of time, are employed and can pass a background check."
That'll do wonders for unemployment of existing U.S. citizens, not to mention National Security - as we will be flooded with immigrants to the point where al-Queda operatives can slip through the cracks and become legal citizens of the very nation they are here to destroy.

"Supports increase in minimum wage." That'll drive businesses here to start looking elsewhere for cheaper labor in other countries and will take a nice chunk out of our economy.

"Wants to invest more money in equipment, technology." Take a look at Kerry's voting record and you'll see exactly how he's jerking everyone off with this campaign.

I could go on and on and on but I'm not up for it. Anyone who knows how the government and economy run knows you can't spend spend spend (on like a hundred different major programs), pay government personal more more more (while increasing the size of their numbers), and cut taxes all at the same time. It's just not humanly possible without throwing the U.S. further, further, and further into debt. Congress won't pass half this shit. Half this shit won't even make it to Congress.

As for the Patriot Act, let's roll back to 1989 when we had Felix Bloch, a high ranking offical at the U.S. State Department spying for the Soviets. This man was documented meeting with questionable foriegn officals in Europe and recieved calls from KGB operatives at his home while the FBI was watching him. Could anyone touch him? No. The Justice Department demands an insane ammount of evidence in order to issue warrants - evidence that's not obtainable without one (as spies and terrorits work covertly). The man passed oodles of secrets to the Soviets right in front of us and we couldn't touch him.

Sniffing out spies was easy back in the 80s because you knew where to look. Government positions. How about with terrorists? They're the average joe running groceries out to your car, or handling your stocks, driving you around in a cab, or may even be co-workers. They're the American public who work the same jobs you and I do. That's what the government is up against. Finding a needle in a hay-factory. The use of a magnifying glass has helped keep this country safe. How many real terrorist attacks have we suffered since 9/11? Since the Patriot Act?

The biggest group this legislature threatens are non-citizens as well as members of hardcore/extremist islamic groups (which seem to be synonymous with anti-american sentiment). These are the same people Kerry wants to make U.S. Citizens tomorrow (or so he says).

I believe ice was asking how you stop suicide bombers from attacking the public. The only way to do that is to take a step towards totalitarianism. Watch The Siege if you haven't already. That's exactly how it's done. Do you want your petty freedoms that are never compromised or do you want saftey and security? Sorry, until the FBI starts doing bogus stuff with the Patriot Act like rounding up U.S. Citizens (I underline that because most that have been rounded up are not citizens of this country) that don't carry traits of an islamic terrorist, then it's existance is a plus when I can come home and not turn on the TV to see mass hysteria because terrorists have blown up Wallstreet or shot hundreds of children in the back.

Originally Posted by .BatteryPoison.

"There's what Kerry says, and there's what Kerry does." - A 527 Ad.

As for the Patriot Act, let's roll back to 1989 when we had Felix Bloch, a high ranking offical at the U.S. State Department spying for the Soviets. This man was documented meeting with questionable foriegn officals in Europe and recieved calls from KGB operatives at his home while the FBI was watching him. Could anyone touch him? No. The Justice Department demands an insane ammount of evidence in order to issue warrants - evidence that's not obtainable without one (as spies and terrorits work covertly). The man passed oodles of secrets to the Soviets right in front of us and we couldn't touch him.

Petty Freedoms.

Oh say can you see…

First, on the issue of spies I’d like to site the Rosenberg case, now that’s how to curb Americans from turning over National Secrets. Also, I’d like to point out that on the issue of spying and evidence gathering, most people who have access to these types of materials fall under a different jurisdiction (Military Tribunals) which is as it should be. If you’ve ever found yourself on the receiving end of a secret, top secret or above security clearance, you’ll know what I’m talking about. And yes, your records are subject to auditing and without your permission, as often as they’d like and at least once annually.

Check and Balances, Battery. Checks and Balances.

And a fictional movie based on a thin plot and bad acting isn’t the best point to rest your case on. What you suggest giving up, what a lot of people suggest giving up for the sake of the warm wubby is the very thing we have spent lives, time, blood and anguish for since 1776.

We can defend our country without giving up control of it. We can endure with a little suffering. We can hold fast to our petty freedoms…

What freedoms you ask?

The right against illegal search and seizure.
The right to a speedy trial.
The right to walk the street without papers of intent and identification.
The right to freedom of speech.
…hell the right to freedom.

(Rolls Washington Herald, smacks Bush on nose)

NO! Bad boy, no!

p.s. one of the reason’s I posted the earlier link was for edification. Instead of taking my word or Battery’s word, or anyone’s word on Kerry’s voting practice, click on the link and take a look for yourself. His voting history is there for your perusal. Gather your own information, make your own choice. Personally, I haven’t noticed a lot of waffling, but there has been a lot of snowballing :}

p.s.s. the gib on Russia was bad, but goes to prove a point. They live the essence of the Patriot Act, and how's that been working for them...

[.BatteryPoison.]

Military Tribunals only apply to people in the armed services. If you're the President of the U.S. and you're being impeached, you'll stand before the Supreme Court, as will politicians and civilians accused of espionage.

In reguards to the movie, it's an example of how the government responds to an unknown threat through a system of totalitarianism by first stripping the rights of people. It's the modern, and legitimate alternative to the concentration camp.

As for those freedoms, how often has the FBI stripped you of them? Do you know someone who has endured the wrath of the Patriot Act? If you do, you may want to re-examine who you hang out with. It's a reserved act that's only being used on possible terror suspects and supporters. The FBI doesn't go hog-wild with it and investigate Kobe's prior medical records and whatnot.

Instead of taking my word or Battery’s word, or anyone’s word on Kerry’s voting practice, click on the link and take a look for yourself

In that same vein, research, research, research!! Understanding the issues and understanding the candidates are two sides of the same coin.

As for Russia's use of totalitarianism, the reason they left themselves open is because the FSB, military, and the Kremlin can be bought for a price.
"Hey, are you carrying a bomb into that school?"
"Here's $50,000... you didn't see a thing."
"I didn't see a thing."
They were careless in the past, but now Putin is calling for reform, so hopefully the system will operate with the right people running the show.

[CptSternn]

Last May AShcroft was called before congrss to talk about how many times the PAtriot act had been used. He told congress about 470 times they had used provisions in the act to arrest suspects.

They used hte powers to search homes without a warrant, listen in on conversations between a suspect and his lawyer, and get phone taps for whole blocks, because they didnt know if the suspect was going to the neighbors house or using a payphone, so they just tapped the whole block, on more than one occasion.

They also used this act to arrest and detain hundreds, many who are still in confinment with no charges.

Near the end of the inquiry, they asked 'Were all these terrosim cases', the response was NO, only 14 of the 470 were terrorism related - the rest were American citizens who were wanted for book keeping (gambling), rackateering, robbery, and drug dealing.


John Gotti Jr. was one of the men arrested in one of the operations. He was arrested for book keeping, along with a dozen other Americans after they tapped all their phones, searched their homes while they were out, and listened in when they spoke to their lawyers.

The Dept. Of Justice is using the Patriot Act to go after common criminals, exactly what they are not supposed to do. They are using it to get around civil liberties, and arrest those who under normal circumstances who not be arrested.

This does not make us safer, it merely allows the government to 'skirt' those pesky constitutional rights of citizens and lets law enforcement trample across freedoms in an effort to clear their books and look good on the news.

By allowing this, we condone this, meaning its ok to withhold contisutional rights from American citizens if they break the law. Where does it stop? What crimes are your rights recognised and what crimes allow the government to suppress your rights?

Someone mentioned the NYC protests. One thing I saw on CNN is the ACLU is representing many groups suing the city and the government over arrests. It appears the FBI went to various states and stopped busloads of people and also went to where people were organising to meet and arrested them, held them the duration of the convention, and then let them go. The FBI is siteing powers under the patriot act give them the ability to do this.

They also used the new CAPPS system to keep known protestors off the planes, holding them and denying them boarding passes. A group of nuns known for their protest of the war were kicked off a plane in California because they were heading to the convention. They were sited as a security risk.

Those who think 'I'm fine because I dont break the law' are missing the main point: the USA was founded on the principal of innocent until prvoen guilty. It also was founded on the idea that the government doesn't have the right to enter your home and interfere with your daily life unless you pose a threat to society. This new act allows the goverment to enter your home, your work, even your medical records and interfere anyway they see fit without any checks, balances, or means of recourse if they make a mistake - as they are exempt from any type of prosecution or liabilty under this act.

This is what our forefathers fought against. Another ironic point is that during the 50's and 60's this is what the government said would happen if we let communism spread. It appears the US got to that point without the help of communism.

[TeapotScar]

As if everything Cpt just cited wasn't enough to convince you this government is going totally-totalitarian insane with the patriot act thing- guess how much it cost to promote...and then guess who paid for it.

Answers: $200,000 and you... oh well, [public schools/overseas soldiers/1,000 other causes] didn't need the money anyways.

Ashcroft went on a Patriot Act tour, spending $200,000 to make the extreme loss of civil liberties look pretty. Disgusting? I think so...

[AlKilyu]

I'd rather it went to that then wasted on the "Oil for Food" program or some other waste like that. Tell me tax money (paid by those who hold jobs to anyone lining to bitch) wasn't wasted during the Clinton administration, a man I voted for and touted as being in the same fraternity as me.

Hopefully you all watched the "Oil for Food: Blood Money" show on FoxNews. If not, do a Google on (and use quotes when doing so) "Oil for Food" and watch how many times the word "scandel" comes up. The U.S. is innocent there, and when the official congressional report is released in spring of '05, many will eat their words.

You think that Bush is leading now, if that report were published now, they end the race ASAP due to overwhelming support for him. But, unlike Dan Rather, congress wishes to get ALL the facts and confirm them before releasing anything.

[Bicth_in-the_Basement666]

seeing as how bush wants me to go to war im gonna have to say kerry but in general i think wacthing all the muckraking is quite amusing so i usally go for the guy who makes the other one look more like a smuck than the other

hope that doesent piss any of you who care off wasent trying to if i did

[AlKilyu]

It's okay Bexxle, while I don't agree with your opinion, it's nice to see you back.

[.BatteryPoison.]

Fucking Hilarious*


(for republicans)

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

I'd rather it went to that then wasted on the "Oil for Food" program or some other waste like that. Tell me tax money (paid by those who hold jobs to anyone lining to bitch) wasn't wasted during the Clinton administration, a man I voted for and touted as being in the same fraternity as me.

Hopefully you all watched the "Oil for Food: Blood Money" show on FoxNews. If not, do a Google on (and use quotes when doing so) "Oil for Food" and watch how many times the word "scandel" comes up. The U.S. is innocent there, and when the official congressional report is released in spring of '05, many will eat their words.

You think that Bush is leading now, if that report were published now, they end the race ASAP due to overwhelming support for him. But, unlike Dan Rather, congress wishes to get ALL the facts and confirm them before releasing anything.

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with this assessment (for the time being) because from what we know the program was set in place in good faith (offset sanctions placed on Iraq) and to provide food and assistance to the Iraqi people. We, essentially, traded food and medical supplies for oil. This, if you can follow along, wasn’t a welfare program because we got what we wanted and we gave what we wanted. As for tax dollars spent for the program, again I’d have to see the numbers, because from my initial take we got better than we gave.

And why wouldn’t we?

And let’s be honest, Bush did no great deed, was no visionary in ending the program. Quite simply, the war happened, Iraqi leadership was dismantled, and so the program was unneeded since the sanctions we no longer in place.

As for monies being funneled into key leadership positions of the Iraqis, and that money going to fund terrorist like operations and even (possibly) to Binny and the Jets, that’s all highly possible. I don’t blame Clinton for that, we weren’t getting a lot of information from their government on any fronts (kinda the whole point in going there and laying the smack down the second time) and so what we have is a case of good intentions but bad repercussions.

The whole picture is a bit spaghetti like, with noodles going here and noodles going there, but the end epiphany is Saddam took advantage of us. No news there. The numbers I’m aware of is that Iraqi leadership alone funneled approximately 10 billion (let me put that in zeros) 10,000,000,000 in funds.

TeapotScar, that’s 10,000,000,000 dollars. I can’t shake an eye at 200,000 dollars on promoting the Patriot Act. Are you sure your numbers are correct? 200,000 dollars is like…well, that’s a two day Winnebago rental, a couple cases of beer, and a banner sign hanging off the side saying, “Patriot Act” with a “(thumbs up signal)” and filled with hookers (considering the money involved we’ll say two and a half hookers) being escorted to a secret congressional meeting.

Check your numbers again, that is a paltry amount of money.

[AlKilyu]

Like I said TStone do a search on it.

Watch FoxNews if they re-run it or go to their website.

Or wait until springtime when it will be officially released.

I don't think we benifited, if we did not as much as other countries did.

Oddly enough, those who benifited the most were those same countries that protested us going back into Iraq.

You're right on those numbers, he himself netted 10 billion, and those on the take knew this.

Did I mention .batterypoison.'s greatness yet?

[MrMaelstrom]

We all follow the news we agree with. that show us things the way we want to see them.

Please watch Fox news as much as you like. But please do notice the bias in it and take a look at unbiased reporting (where you can find it) or watch something that's biased in the opposite direction.

There are facts and there are opinionsand there is hearsay. There's a difference between them all, but it's hard to notice if you don't look for it.

Look for it.

Why do I get a Reagan deja vu when faced with Bush? How long will it take us to see the PRESENT damage to admit it was a mistake?
Why do the leaders that mostly unite a nation most usually take it exactly where it shouldn't go, or should, but in a different manner altogether?

[OmmadDawn]

So a couple weeks ago, before the flu came and kicked my ass, I complained about Alkilyu passing on a joke about Kerry about him being indecisive. I used the word "Hitlerite" and he and Empty_Purple_Stars made some complaints.

So, yes, I feel the jokes about Kerry being "indecisive" are propaganda. I believe some arm of the Republican Party (like the American Enterprise Institute) has hired people and payed them to:
1) come up with a key slander against Kerry to use in their propaganda campaign
2) hire writers to create jokes to spread through the culture, reinforcing it
3) have the networks pressure the talk show hosts into repeating the jokes

And it isn't something they haven't done before. "Al Gore is a robot" "Mondale's a wimp". I complained about these being playground shenanigans, and they are.

I don't understand why somebody like Alkilyu, who is cool in other ways, spends time listening to Fox News which outright admits what they spew is propaganda, not news, and repeating canned jokes aimed to create an unrealistic picture of the Democratic candidate.

I think such tactics are revolting, and don't understand why this kind of immaturity doesn't make everyone sick with embarrassment.

On top of that, having to make up stuff about Kerry is really pitiful, when the current president is such a retard he can't speak in public without a prewritten speech, he can't answer any questions that aren't on a list, he can't speak to the public outside of a military base, he can't see or hear any protestors, he can't testify in Congress under oath or without his puppet-master Cheney sitting with him, he's clearly a military deserter, and both he and Cheney showed overt cowardice during the 9/11 attacks.

How they can even attempt to make fun of the candidate running against them when they so clearly, in public record, have holes in their own personality and leadership you could sail an aircraft carrier through. Well, it just demonstrates that none of their own behavior matters, as long as the Great American Bubba buys it, and Bubba buys it out of willful and intentional ignorance and denial of everything that's gone on these last years. I'm just disappointed as hell to see Alkilyu and others sitting right next to Bubba.

More about the "Hitler" reference later.

[punkirony]

I know that this isn't an opion, but I'd totally vote for my man Bill Clinton.

[TeapotScar]

Hmm, reading these threads, I always just feel so sad about the huge gap between Republicans and Democrats. Obviously we disagree...

This question goes out to those of both parties: If you *had* to vote for a political figurehead of the opposite party, who would it be?

I'll go first:

AlKilyu in '04!!!!!!

Haha seriously though- McCain wasn't bad.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by OmmadDawn

I don't understand why somebody like Alkilyu, who is cool in other ways, spends time listening to Fox News which outright admits what they spew is propaganda, not news, and repeating canned jokes aimed to create an unrealistic picture of the Democratic candidate.

Unbiased reporting, you're not used to it so it's foreign to you. You give me cold hard facts, proof, that what you said above is true.

I think such tactics are revolting, and don't understand why this kind of immaturity doesn't make everyone sick with embarrassment.

Like name calling and putting down those who don't agree with you as 'immature' and 'revolting'.

On top of that, having to make up stuff about Kerry is really pitiful,

What's been made up? Again, proof.

when the current president is such a retard

Nice. So not only do you resort to name calling, you are so un-PC as to use a term that would offend the mentally handicapped.

he can't speak in public without a prewritten speech

No every other politician goes off memory, including Kerry.

he can't answer any questions that aren't on a list, he can't speak to the public outside of a military base, he can't see or hear any protestors, he can't testify in Congress under oath or without his puppet-master Cheney sitting with him, he's clearly a military deserter

More name calling. Once more, proof, provide it.

and both he and Cheney showed overt cowardice during the 9/11 attacks.

That's not worth retorting. Too easy, there must be a trap.

How they can even attempt to make fun of the candidate running against them when they so clearly, in public record, have holes in their own personality and leadership you could sail an aircraft carrier through. Well, it just demonstrates that none of their own behavior matters, as long as the Great American Bubba buys it, and Bubba buys it out of willful and intentional ignorance and denial of everything that's gone on these last years. I'm just disappointed as hell to see Alkilyu and others sitting right next to Bubba.

So I'm ignorant, eh?

I cannot tell you how honored that I dissapoint you and others like you. Fucking swelling with pride at this very moment. Unlike you and others (by others I don't mean other Kerry supporters or Teapot) I came into this with no bias and studied unbiased sources. Who is your source of news, CBS?!

More about the "Hitler" reference later.

Save your breath. The only time you open your mouth as of late is to change feet.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by TeapotScar

Hmm, reading these threads, I always just feel so sad about the huge gap between Republicans and Democrats. Obviously we disagree...

This question goes out to those of both parties: If you *had* to vote for a political figurehead of the opposite party, who would it be?

I'll go first:

AlKilyu in '04!!!!!!

Haha seriously though- McCain wasn't bad.

Heh sorry Teapot, I came in here to see what you had posted and saw the above.

You'd be my running mate, and uh...I think you know where I'm goin with that...

Hmm...while he is not running as of late, I like how Newt cleaned up our debt and things in general there for awhile. Or Lieberman. Hmm...that's a good question...eh...Lieberman.

[skoteinh]

You know that I am not from the US, and maybe somebody would say that I shouldn't talk about this, because Greece is sooooo far away, but here's what I think:

Bush in my opinion should go. I don't know this guy Kerry, but he can't be worse than Bush. George W. has done so much damage across the globe and if he stays I'm sure he'll do more. All this crap about freedom and protecting the rights of the innocent is not convincing. Ask the people of Afghanistan and Irak.

Ok, I'm not saying that Osama and Saddam are saints, but I believe that we should help people resolve their own problems and not throw bombs that destroy their cities and kill children, overthrow their rulers and cause chaos and civil wars.

Terrorism is just wrong but should we follow the "eye for an eye" logic?

And apart from that, how about Kyoto? I think it's time the Government of the United States took steps towards respecting the environment, recycling, protecting the forests and not throwing so much energy out the window. I hope the next president will do something about that, because it is not something that affects just the people that live in the US, but all of us.

Please, don't start throwing things at me *ducks* it's just my opinion...

[Bicth_in-the_Basement666]

Personally i could give a shit for where your from i belive your right but i wouldent hold my breath about our next prez doing something useful.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by skoteinh

You know that I am not from the US

Originally Posted by skoteinh

I don't know this guy Kerry, but he can't be worse than Bush

I hear this constantly and like Neo in the Matrix, I can hold my hand out and make the bullets drop, then flare my nostrils.

Not saying you don't have a point (but here you don't) or that your opinion as a whole doesn't matter (you can't vote so it does not) just that...well...eh...*yawn*...hey look something shiny!