Shooting at Virginia Tech

[BlackWidow]

What he is dead? Holy shit where have I been? Wow I had no clue I thought they said he was still alive...? Wow I am really dumbfounded now. I have been living in a hotel for the past week so....yeah...well that sucks that his death was quick...damn.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by BlackWidow

I hope he dies a horrible death and HIS family and friends are murdered so he can feel the same pain these people did.

...that sucks that his death was quick...damn.

For anybody who remembers a recent conversation about the nature of murder, and my comments to the effect that "murder is in the blood", this is exactly the emotional state I was trying to get you to imagine in order to make my point.

Drake

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by Bloopie

That has to be the single-most dumbest question, ever.

Care to answer it then? I suppose you're far superior to this man since you can judge him. Of course you are. I'd like to see you living his life, having his experiences and his problems - then we'd see who's superior. See, I don't believe the bullshit that will inevitably be spewed out that he's evil or some other shit, I'm quite goddamn certain he was not too different from you and me. How 'bout you think about that for a minute? It could just as well has been you if you had lived his life, and no man is superior enough to judge an other.

What good is damning a dead man anyways?

I am far superior to this man. I don't take out my anger by killing other people. Sorry, but are you serious? I am finding you hard to take seriously. It's an axiom that murderers are depraved assholes. No one deserves to die. I sure as hell want some people to die, but I could never do that to anyone. It's totally barbaric, and beneath a rational being.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

Can someone tell my why anyone should cast blame at all?

Because he pulled the trigger on a pair of loaded guns again and again and again, shooting people at random, killing most of those he hit with the bullets of said guns.

Was that a serious question or do you live inside some bizarro, P.C. world where everyone's a victim and no one's ever at fault?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Of course he is to be blamed.
I hate when people cast the blame unto everyone except the doer. Determinism is stupid.

I do not believe all lives have equal value, and I don't even believe killing someone in itself is evil.
But I do believe that it is a crime for some lowlife to kill someone with a much more valuable life.

How did I judge he's a lowlife and his victims were better than him?
I didn't. He did.
He killed himself afterward; his victims had never killed themselves.
He assigned no value to his life, but took some people that valued their lives with him.

Yeah...I have to agree with EE...what is wrong with you?

[knightmare]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I do not believe all lives have equal value, and I don't even believe killing someone in itself is evil.
But I do believe that it is a crime for some lowlife to kill someone with a much more valuable life.

How did I judge he's a lowlife and his victims were better than him?
I didn't. He did.
He killed himself afterward; his victims had never killed themselves.
He assigned no value to his life, but took some people that valued their lives with him.

The killer's rants about spoiled rich brats at his campus showed that he devalued his classmates to the extent that they were deemed to be unworthy of life. Maybe he expected such a high standard of other humans and found it necessary to exterminate them. Isn't it similar to the radical Islamist bombers situation? They find that the US' sense of morality has become so depraved that they are willing to give their lives to exterminate the US' influence. Not all killers destroy for the heck of it. To many of them, the destruction of "less valuable" human beings is necessary. If value is subjective, how can we judge him for his viewpoints? How is it different than war? What makes an American life more valuable than several Iraqis? It doesn't matter if one values his life, people seem to judge one's right to life by their contributions to their society. Example: Capital punishment (don't bring the life for a life argument, since a number of countries kill their citizens for lesser crimes such as possession of drugs, etc.)

I, in no way, do find the killer's actions to be justifiable.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by knightmare

Not all killers destroy for the heck of it. To many of them, the destruction of "less valuable" human beings is necessary. If value is subjective, how can we judge him for his viewpoints?

I did think of that when I formed my own opinions on this subject. Everything seems to branch into four possibilities, and the four end up in the same place.
-If value is objective, then there's no question that what he did is wrong, and we're just wasting our time in this thread.
-If value is objective and supports his actions, then whatever our opinion might be will be a waste of time.
-If value is subjective, and begins from each individual and outwards, then it doesn't matter how the killer valued other people. What mattered is that the victims valued themselves enough to live, while he didn't. He had no right in judging the value of other people's lives; especially when he himself assigned none to his own.
-If value is subjective and isolated from others' values, then we cannot blame him for his deeds if we reason from his perspective. But if this is so, then we must first formulate our own opinions of his actions beginning with our perspective, and we have all the right to deem him as cruel and evil if we choose to. The killer would only be a martyr in his own head; an idiot in other people's minds. And if his head is blown to pieces, then it doesn't really matter what values were in it.

[knightmare]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

-If value is subjective, and begins from each individual and outwards, then it doesn't matter how the killer valued other people. What mattered is that the victims valued themselves enough to live, while he didn't. He had no right in judging the value of other people's lives; especially when he himself assigned none to his own.
.

We judge the value of other people's lives all the time. This judgment concept is especially applicable to our government, in matters concerning justice and war. In the killer's warped viewpoint (he was clinically psychotic) the victims were on the same pedestal of value as he was. Also, in his video, the killer ranted about the injustices that occurred to him. So he must have had assigned some value to his life, since to him, the "abuses" he suffered justified his killing of his classmates.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by Bloopie

I am far superior to this man. I don't take out my anger by killing other people.

Is that so? If my own computer had worked, I'd be able to refer to some chat logs where you state that in a previous incident where you got in a fight, you deliberately hurt an other man, and that got you in jail.

Originally Posted by Bloopie

Sorry, but are you serious? I am finding you hard to take seriously.

I am serious.

Originally Posted by Bloopie

It's an axiom that murderers are depraved assholes. No one deserves to die.

Your skills at generalizing never ceases to amaze me. Picture yourself at gunpoint - or better, under torture. A police officer rushes in and saves your life by putting his own at a serious risk and shooting the gunman - does that make the officer an asshole?

Originally Posted by edible_eye

Because he pulled the trigger on a pair of loaded guns again and again and again, shooting people at random, killing most of those he hit with the bullets of said guns.

Although I doubt he shot people at random, I'm not trying to defend the killer. My question was not related to this episode. So yeah, kinda of topic.

Originally Posted by edible_eye

Was that a serious question or do you live inside some bizarro, P.C. world where everyone's a victim and no one's ever at fault?

It was more of an ethical question, really. Oh, you are the last person I'd expect to go on a personal attack in your first post. Disappointing.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Of course he is to be blamed.
I hate when people cast the blame unto everyone except the doer. Determinism is stupid.

Even if he is to blame, so what? What will declaring your hate here do? Exactly nothing. But are you saying that if he was raised somewhere else - say, in a rich, American family - he would do the same?

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I do not believe all lives have equal value, and I don't even believe killing someone in itself is evil.
But I do believe that it is a crime for some lowlife to kill someone with a much more valuable life.

And what made the lives of the victims more valuable than that of the killer? Of course, together, they do, but one doesn't just go attacking random people, right? I'm pretty sure they offended him badly.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

How did I judge he's a lowlife and his victims were better than him?
I didn't. He did.
He killed himself afterward; his victims had never killed themselves.
He assigned no value to his life, but took some people that valued their lives with him.

He merely did what the police would do if they got him.





If you insist on judging other people, think about this: It was judging other people that made him kill them in the first place.

Cyntrox I have one thing to say: Bullshit.

[Cyntrox]

Then prove me wrong.

[raggedyanne]

Cyntrox is correct that his judgment of other people made him want to kill, but listen to what he was mad about. The evidence is stacking up, America's moral lapse is infuriating to many people. Maybe they're right in saying we need to shape up, but not by killing people.

[Cyntrox]

I'm quite sure the american government will do everything they can to make him look bad.

[raggedyanne]

that's what we do best

Cyntrox is very wrong, and I don't need to explain it.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

Although I doubt he shot people at random, I'm not trying to defend the killer. My question was not related to this episode. So yeah, kinda of topic.

So, you're assuming he targeted specific people, that those he shot were sought out individually? Your question was dropped in the middle of a discussion regarding whether or not blame was to be assigned.

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

It was more of an ethical question, really. Oh, you are the last person I'd expect to go on a personal attack in your first post. Disappointing.

Personal attack? It was a question.

As for what you would expect from me - expect nothing. You won't be disappointed that way.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

Cyntrox is correct that his judgment of other people made him want to kill, but listen to what he was mad about. The evidence is stacking up, America's moral lapse is infuriating to many people. Maybe they're right in saying we need to shape up, but not by killing people.

So, you're saying it's other peoples' fault that he killed 31 people? According to you, he holds no responsibility for his actions?

Who is saying we need to shape up? Who is this 'they' you're referencing?

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Cyntrox

I'm quite sure the american government will do everything they can to make him look bad.

He's not only made himself look bad, but has portrayed himself as a sack of waste all by his lonesome.

This statement smacks of unfortunate brainwashing on the scale of that horrendous, protestor chant - "Hell no, we won't go." It means a whole lot of nothing, yet anyone who says it feels better about having done so.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by raggedyanne

that's what we do best

Is it?

You might want to pull your sleeve up, your chip is showing.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

So, you're assuming he targeted specific people, that those he shot were sought out individually? Your question was dropped in the middle of a discussion regarding whether or not blame was to be assigned.

Yeah, it was perhaps a little misplaced. But I was not there. I do not know who he killed. But I find it likely that he would attack people who had done something to him.

Originally Posted by edible_eye

Personal attack? It was a question.

As for what you would expect from me - expect nothing. You won't be disappointed that way.

You can't just put a question mark behind anything to make it lose its impact. I've seen your earlier posts, I have a lot of respect for you and so I expected you to be more civil. Pardon me if you are not.

Originally Posted by edible_eye

So, you're saying it's other peoples' fault that he killed 31 people? According to you, he holds no responsibility for his actions?

He holds no responsibility because he is dead. He was of course influenced from the outside. If he had grown up somewhere else, this would not have happened. And casting blame does nothing but show that you think you are by far superior - and that goes in all cases.

[Cyntrox]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

He's not only made himself look bad, but has portrayed himself as a sack of waste all by his lonesome.

This statement smacks of unfortunate brainwashing on the scale of that horrendous, protestor chant - "Hell no, we won't go." It means a whole lot of nothing, yet anyone who says it feels better about having done so.

Were you there? Did you know all the people who were killed? Do you know anything about it except what has been fed to you?

Cyntrox is a moron everyone. I just had a thirty minute debate trying to explain that we are more intelligent than other animals, and he still won't listen. I also explained to him that anarchy doesn't work for very long, and it's the most inefficient type of (non)government for humans known to man. Even communism is better.

He seems to also believe that 'norms' will satisfy the moral standards of a group of people as large as a nation. He seems to be under the delusion that tribes do not function as a microcosm of a government.

[Drake Dun]

Why assign blame? Stop looking at it from a social engineering, philosophical, or moral perspective and just look at it as a question of the personal psychology of the person doing the assigning. The value of blame-assignment to the individual is obvious... it's a process of blocking, purging, and reasserting. It's a coping mechanism, and not an ineffective one.

Drake