The music vs. The fashion

[KontanKarite]

I've been wondering lately.

I go back to the bands that started the goth movement and most of them weren't clad in black until their fans were doing so. In fact, I don't even remember ever seeing Joy Division clad in black, ever. Then there's Siousxie and The Banshees where Miss Sioux actually dons a more "gothic" aesthetic.

My question is, if the movement was 100% about the music, then why did fashion ever become a part of it? How do you think it happened?

Do you think the goth fashion was just a fashion trend that was going on while goth rock was becoming a new genre of music or do you think the two are completly unified, feeding off each other for inspiration. The music makes the fashion, the fashion seems to inspire the music.

I'm of the mind that the two were entirely separate entities that just HAPPENED to come together in some way. Part of me thinks that the goth person was just some person who seemed to wear solid black and had no name, but happened to REALLY REALLY fall in love with goth rock, maybe because they COULD relate to it.

What do you think? Are they singular aspects as a symbiosis or were they separate things and are still separate things by most goth rock purists?

This came up because the goth scene in my town seems to have split in half from the ones who know of goth rock and love it, yet also hold the fashion in high regard and then there's the ones who think the fashion has no bearing whatsoever on goth and it's all music and just music.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Good goth...Goth, since the beginning of its foundation, has shown parts of our aesthetic is fashion driven. How? Well, New Romantic artists such as Adam and The Ants' fashion clearly showed something that was utterly different from punk. The Cramps were not considered Gothabilly for nothing. Of course, it's really the themes of the music that matters. However, the fashion sense in our subculture's music is a credited part of its asesthetics prescence.

Going to give one important example: Joy Divison influenced goth with themes of their music. Unforutanetly, they dressed like geeky High School Boys and with other bands in their legion, considered post-punk. I think that, because of Bauhaus' entrance, goth is quickly notified offically with the way one dresses. If Division had been clad in Black with other accessories, they would break the boundries of post-punk and automatically be considered goth. Or at least, by the majority. For our subculture deeply is not always judged how one person is dressed.

Goth is proven something within, not something out. But it should be notified, as mentioned, that part of our subcultures' foundation was based on the attire. In the starting of this, Siouxsie and the Banshees helped baked the gothic cake. Siouxsie dressed in Fetish wear similar to Sid Vicious, clad in black and torn fishnets. Fishnets perhaps was inherited from punk, though our subculture has adopted it as a nessecary style. Aside from this, you must admit that Siouxsie and the Banshees themes were not as Anti-Establishment in the punkrock movement as The Clash and the Sex Pistols. Their lyrics differed later on, with their themes of death and nilhillistic philosophies. Thus, they're considered a goth band anyway.

Goth, our culture's fashion do as mentioned again, notify someone involved in our movement. Though we must remember with music: not all bands clad in black are gothic rock. The Misfits, for instance, were horror-themed punkrock for a reason. The only real way to classify them with their drum, bass, and vocal-thrasing sounds. Yet their attire seemed to grow from the Goth/Deathrock movement. TSOL is another band like the Misfits, though they're surprisngly closer to goth then any other horrorpunk band, a realtivly new style in the LA underground scene. Their sound is described as gothic punk (by the band, source their website) and their style of dress was per say more goth compared to other punk bands.

Goth legends themselves, Specimen, are a product that deeply show that our movement's big appeal is fashion. Yet their is also a parody of fashion and sexuality itself with such an influential goth band: the fact they purposely overused make-up and Fetishware though still showed passion and involvment in their style. Speaking of which, does anyone think it's wrong to call Specimen a HorrorPunk band? On a fansite it says they're only Goth in 'Retrospect'-though Horrorpunk is CLEARLY a product of America, and not of the Batcave. Deathrock British style, but not Horror-Punk.

Good goth...Goth's bearing on fashion is a 50/50 if you ask lil 'ol gothic me. Why? There is enough history in our counterculture to prove that fashion made goth differ from pop and the mainstream. Goth's modern asethetic appeal lies within fashion; but it does not entirely make-up our subculture. In short, I would like to say that our subculture should foremost be judged with the passion of goth, though we shouldn't ignore the fashion. Plus, I can't leave my house without something on my face or nails.

Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[HumanePain]

I wonder if some of the little details of fashion had their origins in practicality:
One could survive a mosh pit better if he wore bracelets, collars, jackets and boots when they were covered with metal spikes, i.e. one would be less likely to get slammed if one moshed like a porcupine. You are less likely to get shoved by someone who wants to keep their hands and arms from getting punctured on obvious chrome projections.

[KontanKarite]

There you have it. I figured as much.

I was looking for an explination, mainly to help me school this goth rock purist.

He had this odd knee jerk reaction to call Fuzion a place for fashion snobbery, when all it really wanted to do was inspire people to be more creative in a fashion sense.

I dunno about you guys, and though it's not THAT big of a deal, there's something to be said when you go to a goth club and many many many of the people there are decked out in blue jeans and tee shirts.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

I wonder if some of the little details of fashion had their origins in practicality:
One could survive a mosh pit better if he wore bracelets, collars, jackets and boots when they were covered with metal spikes, i.e. one would be less likely to get slammed if one moshed like a porcupine. You are less likely to get shoved by someone who wants to keep their hands and arms from getting punctured on obvious chrome projections.

Hahaha, that one made me laugh!

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I dunno about you guys, and though it's not THAT big of a deal, there's something to be said when you go to a goth club and many many many of the people there are decked out in blue jeans and tee shirts.

And where exactly does this happen? Mayhaps the people who wear those blue jeans and shirts are only curious people wanting to look at how a goth club looks like from inside? Maybe they're looking for vampires and the likes?

Of course, that doesn't discount the possibility that these blue jeans people just appreciate the music and not the fashion sense?

I have a question to throw out, though. Let's say for example, this one person loves the music, lives up to the unspoken gothic codes and abhors conformity for conformity's sake, and yet does not dress in the dark aesthetic goths adore. What is he then?

[Tha Duckman]

Because they're all tools.

And Joy Division was primarily punk.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Goth is not 100% music. It's just not. I fucking hate it when people say it is, because it's not. If it were, goth fashion wouldn't exist.

[Clockwork]

The more you narrow people and their interests down, the smaller the group gets, and their interests become more closely linked. It's possible that there is a correlation between the fashion and the music simply because of common personality traits; person with type X personality likes this music and is likely to favor that fashion style. You get enough similar people in one concert together, they complement each others interests and inspire each other, and construct a new type of fashion. If that is so, you can't really deny that the fashion isn't a part of the music, just as different aspects of your own personality are of you.

That's only speculation, it's possible I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Vyvian, that was a most impressive essay.

[Aaroneet]

I happen to think that the fashion could be interpreted as a tribute to the time periods from which the philosophy and the literature spawned (i.e the Lord Byron shirts drawing tribute to his writings and the Romantic movement). Then again, I've always thought of Goth, not just in its musical sense, but the way it was portrayed in the "Goth with a sledgehammer" internet bit. Yes, the fashion was derived from the likes of Siouxsie Sioux, who dabbled in some forms of Nazi immagery mostly for the shock factor. But there is also the thought of the symbolism in, specifically the stereotypical black, which comes to represent irrationality, what is different, elusive, and romantic, again, themes in literature. These serve as a stark contrast to what is considered "acceptable" in society, what is light, rational, and easily answerable. Man tends to fear what he doesn't understand. Goth is naturally an elusive thing; it takes many forms, and there is no one guideline per se. If anything, I think that the fashion is meant to further express what is already present in the music and the literature. After all, Goth, if anything, is largely an artistic subculture. What is fashion if not an extension of who you are? This isn't technically a Goth, so to speak, but many draw inspiration from, or are drawn into the works of Edgar Allan Poe. When asked why he always dressed as though he was attending a funeral, he responded that there is a brooding anger in all of us, and it is only right to express it, instead of letting it be concealed. That, to me, is a part of the attitude behind the fashion. Music and fashion are extensions of one another, neither existing completely without the other, and all equal representations of creativity within the spirit. And, as Vyv stated, (I might be taking the statement a step further here), without the fashion, the music scene would consist of many Joy Divisions of the world, but not quite with the following, or clear line of division that exists and makes the Gothic subculture so diverse, and, ultimately, what it is today.

[biohazard]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Goth is not 100% music. It's just not. I fucking hate it when people say it is, because it's not. If it were, goth fashion wouldn't exist.

This is very true, I agree with you. The movement is much more than just music.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I have a question to throw out, though. Let's say for example, this one person loves the music, lives up to the unspoken gothic codes and abhors conformity for conformity's sake, and yet does not dress in the dark aesthetic goths adore. What is he then?

More than likely a nerdy "republican-friendly" looking goth.

[DarkGentleman]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Do you think the goth fashion was just a fashion trend that was going on while goth rock was becoming a new genre of music or do you think the two are completly unified, feeding off each other for inspiration. The music makes the fashion, the fashion seems to inspire the music.

To me, I think the door swung both ways there. I have heard some people say fashion came first that inspired the music, than on the other hand, some said the music inspired the fashion. Kinda like the question: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Goth is not 100% music. It's just not. I fucking hate it when people say it is, because it's not. If it were, goth fashion wouldn't exist.

Totally agree with you there, just like country music yet they have their hats, boots and other western wear. Heavy metal has t-shirts, blue jeans, leather jackets and long hair. Punk rock has the aggro concept to their denim vests, mohawks, patches, torn jeans and combat boots. Rap music? OMG I am not gonna go there about their "gangsta" clown outfits, I am sure we all get the idea.
Goth can have huge concept in many ways. I see goth, not only inspired by music and fashion, but from literature and from classic/modern horror movies as well.

Originally Posted by Aaroneet

Goth is naturally an elusive thing; it takes many forms, and there is no one guideline per se. If anything, I think that the fashion is meant to further express what is already present in the music and the literature. After all, Goth, if anything, is largely an artistic subculture. What is fashion if not an extension of who you are?

EXACTLY the point.

Originally Posted by HumanePain

I wonder if some of the little details of fashion had their origins in practicality:
One could survive a mosh pit better if he wore bracelets, collars, jackets and boots when they were covered with metal spikes, i.e. one would be less likely to get slammed if one moshed like a porcupine. You are less likely to get shoved by someone who wants to keep their hands and arms from getting punctured on obvious chrome projections.

::makes note to self "stay the hell away from the mosh pits" :::

Truth is, that has happened to me a few times. ouch. damn spikes!

Vyv, it amazes me more that I learn more from your postings these days. I still think you should write 'that goth damn book'!

[Aaroneet]

I wonder how much it would go for?

[KontanKarite]

HAHAAHA. That book? It would be awesome, but you know there would always be someone who said that something came before Joy Division or some fact isn't true because their best friend told them it wasn't true, ect. ect.

What seems like a problem is that there is no TEXT BOOK examples of what really went on. But if Vyv was to ever write a book about goth, I could not think of anyone more qualified to do so.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Good goth... You're all too sweet . I am glad I decided to come back. Anyway, as for the topic, Opheilia is the only one with reason here. Our subculture's foundation is music, yet the ideology is not only with identity but with fashion as well (metaphorically speaking). So many musicians say, 'It's all about the music'-clearly it's not [that was Hot Topic's old logo, ironically] for as she mentioned, our fashion wouldn't exist. If not that it'd be hard to single out our culture from others'. Plus, it's also BEEN stated that fashion-hogging , shared by New Romantic, is what made us differ from punk in the first place.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Tha Duckman]

Originally Posted by biohazard

This is very true, I agree with you. The movement is much more than just music.

"The Movement"? You make it sound like a freaking coup is going on!

[Draconysius]

The fashion is irrelevant. It's basically up to a goth's personal preferences what they wear. After all, the whole point of it is to be INDIVIDUAL! If you need to meet certain standards of fashion to be goth, then you're not being individual anymore.

Some people may not wear "gothic" clothing at all, but they still have the love for the music, and a deep understanding of its aesthetic.
Just the same, some people may wear uber-gothic clothing and be total petty, prep-school, MCR-worshipping bitches. I've seen all kinds.
In my opinion, the first subject is goth and the second one is not.

[Lady_Lacrimosa_Umbrae]

Ok, though I agree with Draconysius that the fashion is not that important (as a person can listen to goth music and have, lets say, a "goth lifestyle and way of thinking" and not dress the part), it is also true that many goths listen to many other kinds of music apart from "gothic music".

I think that "goth" in this sense is more like an addition of many things, a combination of a general fashion style, a music style, certain artistic works (writings, paintings, etc...), a lifestyle, etc... that people come to when they have a certain way of thinking and certain tastes. It's true, many people wouldn't dress in black if they weren't influenced by the scene, but anyway, they DO like dressing goth, don't they? The same goes for tastes in music and other artistic stuff as well.

To explain it in another way, I think that goth is in its core a way of seeing the world that is later transformed into more "physical" stuff (like fashion or arts) by certain individuals who have that way of seeing the world. They, as people, are influenced by other things, and influence over other things as well; and other people who happen to have that mindset find these manifestations specially interesting and inspiring, and therefore, allow themselves to be influenced by them.

Like it or not, we, as human beings, cannot evolve without recieving ides from other people, no matter how individualistic we are. Goth is a correlation of many things, and music and fashion are both a part of it, but they're not everything.

I hope I have made myself understood ^^U Maybe it looks too abstract...

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

Some people may not wear "gothic" clothing at all, but they still have the love for the music, and a deep understanding of its aesthetic... In my opinion, the first subject is goth and the second one is not.

If a person does not dress goth or do anything gothic at all, but s/he still has a vast understanding and love for the music, then what separates this goth from someone who is simply an enthusiast, or just admires the subculture from a more distanced standpoint?

I think secondary factors such fashion, as well as art and literature, are still important ways to identify with the subculture and should not be discredited.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth, our subculture, IS founded with a musical genre that exposed the asesthetic. But saying that it's all about the music is irrelevant as well. I mean, mainly the people saying that are musicians themselves, plus, I've known people who know of Bauhaus, Siouxsie, and even The Mission. Though they have NO interest at all in our ideology nor the imagery, just the music. To me that just leaves a sense of emptiness. I mean just look at that douchebag Happy_N00B who knows NOTHING nor has any connection with our culture other than the music, yet he still thinks he can blandly define it as a fan of goth rock and nothing more. Closing the book there takes away apart of us and our subcultures' authenticty. Sure, goth is founded with music, but as mentioned, why simply define it as a musical genre and NOT acknowledge it being an identity and lifestyle? I think Specimen would tend to disagree when someone says goth's fashion is irrelevant to our culture.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Haunted House]

The subculture isn't 100% music, but thats where alot of emphasis lies (to some at least). Goth musicians had the look going for them and thier fans, wanting to identify with them, borrowed the look. Just look at bands like Specimen, Sex Gang Children, Christian Death, and Kommunity FK.

[Aaroneet]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Goth, our subculture, IS founded with a musical genre that exposed the asesthetic. But saying that it's all about the music is irrelevant as well. I mean, mainly the people saying that are musicians themselves, plus, I've known people who know of Bauhaus, Siouxsie, and even The Mission. Though they have NO interest at all in our ideology nor the imagery, just the music. To me that just leaves a sense of emptiness. Closing the book there takes away apart of us and our subcultures' authenticty. Sure, goth is founded with music, but as mentioned, why simply define it as a musical genre and NOT acknowledge it being an identity and lifestyle? I think Specimen would tend to disagree when someone says goth's fashion is irrelevant to our culture.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

I expressed a sentiment similar to this in another forum; to fully belong to a subculture, you have to identify with the music and realize that there is substance beneath the style (in the sense that it is symbolic of music and fashion). Otherwise, you simply enjoy the music, but you're not gaining all you could from the idea or sense of belonging to said subculture. Both are equal extensions of expression, in my opinion, of turning a genuine feeling into something beautiful; sometimes, one that is looked down upon in society.

[Haunted House]

Something else; There are those people who think that goth is just one big game of dress up. I'm talking about the people who deck themselves out to the nines in expensive corsets, hairfalls, boots, whathaveyou just to either stand around and scoff or dance around to music they either don't know or have no passion for. I think thats sort of rediculas. The subculture was built on music so at least know what you're dancing to. I'm not saying that you have to know every single band member of every band and thier mothers, but some knowledge and a love for the music should be a given, otherwise you probably wouldn't have been drawn to it in the first place.
To sum it up, It's not 100% "I love Bauhaus" and it's not 100% "This corset was $900" either.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Guess that's a very reasonable and agreeable statement, Haunted. It's a bit of both, mixed with a dark, romantic and literate soul . aND by the way, Jillian once emailed me saying, 'dude I don't get it. who are you talking about?' Can you believe he didn't capitalise his letters? Lulz.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Clockwork]

Of course; like anything, there's a healthy balance between the two extremes.

Still, what are we without those snobs that define our extremes, eh? XP