OWS, Racism and the Establisment Media

[Saya]

I like going on Tumblr and seeing someone say something like I'm feeling: "at the end of the day when people of color call you out, you still wont fess up to your bullshit and thats about all i need to know about whether you really care about the struggle or if you just care about the brownie points of some poc liking you." I know I'm not PoC, but I get that kind of frustration.

And I get getting defensive about WELL IM NOT RACIST OR SEXIST. I used to do that all the time, and still do sometimes, but I'm learning that I learn more if I STFU and not make myself to be the victim of reverse racism, which essentially is what you accuse PoC of when you say that they're just out to get you when they criticize.

But when it comes to sexist or racist oppression, we can explain it to you, but we can't understand it for you. Clearly you don't understand, and you don't want to. Clearly you have no interest in listening, just trying to overpower our experience with your version of things when you're of the race, sex and class that is the most privileged and blind to the oppression of the rest of us.

[Despanan]

Ad-homonym.

I am priviledged. I know it. I also know that there is blood on my hands and I'm doing everything in my power to make it right.

People are dying of poverty and racism here too. Black men are gunned down in their own homes by the police. NYPD officers are dragging my friends off the sidewalk and arresting them for protesting there while my friends are screaming out the court ruling that allows them to be there. Bloomberg gave the official OK for undercover NYPD officers to sleep with protestors in order to gain information. Our president assassinated an American citizen without due process. He declared the United States a battle-ground and gave himself the power to indefinitely detain citizens without charge or trial. He re-affirmed May 1st as Loyalty day.

My country is teetering on the edge of a knife, and I get the distinct impression that millions of my countrymen are ready to happily, proudly goose-step into fascism, so YES Newfoundland is privileged.

We can dickwave for hours about who has more priviledge, personally and socially, but for now answer my question:

What would Occupy have to do to convince you that it's worthy? What sort of evidence would I have to bring?

Is it even possible, or is occupy damned simply by virtue of having a large number of white men involved?

[AshleyO]

Desp, it's specifically because you're that privileged. Hell... at least you're not an overt agent of the oppression. At least you actually are one of them that will sit down, listen, and care NOW. I mean, if being aware of your privilege is all it's really going to take, then take that in stride, use it, and do the best you can.

[Despanan]

I will. I've seen the horrible things my country has done. I really can't turn around and go back to playing videogames now.

I'd just really like to have the support of and solidarity with folks like Saya and Versus and Sol, because I have a feelin we're gearing up for the fight of the century and none of us can win it alone.

[AshleyO]

http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/c...ite_privilege/

Kinda salient, really. A lot of people here aren't even condemning a white person for their privilege. It's almost as if they understand that it's not something that can really be done away with at all. Best you and I or anyone of the white and male station is to recognize it and keep it in check. Frankly, that bothers me because I wish privilege wasn't something that existed. But these are the cards we are dealt. So the fight isn't the same for us.

I may be off my mark, but I guess it's like we're practically grafted to the tools of the master. Obviously self mutilation isn't a reasonable compromise, so we're simply going to have to make sure the tools are used in a considerate kind of way or not used at all for that matter. I don't want the privilege myself. But it doesn't divorce you and I from it simply because we understand how ugly the privilege is. It's something we've got to deal with.

[Versus]

Despanan. Shut the fuck up and listen.

Originally Posted by Despanan

No I haven't, I'm saying the problem isn't as bad as you think it is. Just because YOU got talked over at Occupy Norfolk, and Saya got talked over at Occupy Newfoundland doesn't mean that the global idea of Occupy is helplessly racist and sexist, nor does it mean that the racism and sexism that Occupy is dealing with is a product OF Occupy.

No. What you're saying is that what matters most, more then anything to Solumina, Saya, and I, is not as important to you as Occupy is. You have absolutely no perspective about what we're talking about and it's bullshit fucking privilege for you to tell us how we should prioritize our wants and needs.

It's NOT it's a product of the culture that Occupy is trying to change and you are attacking folks who are trying to do something about it because it's not perfect. That's WRONG.

Unlike you, we have zero tolerance for racism and sexism. We don't give a shit how much lip-service you give to some fucking intangible thing like "effort", it is evident to us that it doesn't bother you as much as it does us.

You aren't reading my posts. We have Safer Spaces, we have de-escalation, we have facilitators who are trained to deal with this stuff. What else do you want? You want me to personally beat up the next guy who talks over you at Occupy Norfolk?

We want to exist in an environment devoid of sexism and racism. There. Is. No. Excuse. No fucking compromise, no fucking alternative, no fucking concession.

Please provide evidence for this, because I would LOVE to learn about Queer anarchism, I wasn't aware it existed.

Not her job to educate you.

Also: Stop applying this critique to "Occupy" Occupy Norfolk is clearly different from Occupy Wall Street.

True Scotsman, again.

Sure. By all means. Give up on the revolution and go volunteer at Moveon.org to get Obama re-elected. I'm sure that will bring change. I mean, he SAID it would bring change.

Are you fucking kidding me?

I don't know about occupy Norfolk. I am not involved with Occupy Norfolk. I can't comment on their processes. I'm acknowledging that their may be something to your criticism but all I have to go on is your word based upon your limited experience. Until you bring more to the table than "People talked over me but not Jake two times" I can't say more than this.

I already fucking told you, stop blaming the fucking victim.

Wait. I though no one listened. Now you're saying that some folks did listen? What were you even trying to say and how were you trying to say it?

Stop it.

Look, you're on the internet, there is a TON of Occupy stuff on here, just look up the livestreams yourself. You very clearly already have your mind made up, about the lack of merit in a global movement for social justice because some liberal arts students got mad at you.

Stop it.

Occupy IS extremely inclusive. I've been telling you that this whole time. I've been bringing link after link of evidence and you refuse to consider it. You refuse to consider testimony that doesn't 100% mirror your own view that Occupy is something women and people of color should not be involved in.

STOP. IT.

It's not her limited experience, it's not anything she did wrong. She was discriminated. Point fucking blank. Wrap your god damn head around it. There is nothing else she needs to prove, provide, or explain.

IHaveNotAndITakeOffenseToThis. You, Solomina are making unreasonable demands on me, Ignoring the information that I have brought, and reading things into my posts which are not there. I have said multiple times that I am not denying your facts. I have never denied that there is a problem, I have just provided perspective and information on how the movement functions and what it's doing.

Demanding that you recognize that you are not providing anything BUT YOUR OWN GOD DAMN JUSTIFICATION FOR THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER TO YOU IS NOT UNREASONABLE, YOU IGNORANT FUCK.

Just because I'm not throwing the biggest movement for social justice in forty years under a bus does not mean that I am dismissing your concerns.

Yes, it does.

Originally Posted by Despanan

You know, I brought your concerns to a friend of mine who's really big in Occupy, and also happens to be a person of color.

I don't give a fuck what you're brown friend said.

2) Why do you understand that this is absent from the movement? You haven't been to the GAs, you only have Saya's and Solumina's word to go on. Neither have been particularly involved in the movement. Granted this is because they apparently got disrespected by a few people when they did come out (Which sucks) but neither is really educated enough about the movement to say that for instance, Occupy Denver doesn't follow process.

1) I don't need to explain myself to you why I'm not involved with Occupy.

2) Saya and Solumina's experience is more important to me then your is. I think that should be evident.

3) Stop blaming the fucking victim.

It's unreasonable to demand that everyone completely change overnight, and it's unreasonable to refuse to work with someone who's well-meaning but still clueless.

Don't tell me what's fucking reasonable or not. You don't know anything about explaining your racial oppression to somebody.

I'm trying my best but I can't do it without you.

THEN LISTEN TO ME.

[AshleyO]

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html#daily

This is an interesting list. However, I'm not quite sure if all of this can be accurately represented in such a multi-ethnic city such as NYC. We live in a predominantly black and latino area of the city. If we wanted, we could spend the day in a more white part of the city though the irony there is that we probably would play hell trying to afford the stuff there, so being there is either rare or the stuff you can do there is kind of limited.

However, the overarching class in NYC makes policies geared towards blacks and latinos such as Stop and Frisk, which is bullshit. I can SAY that it's bullshit and that it's wrong, but I can't actually understand how bad that actually is because I will NEVER have to deal with it.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I may be off my mark, but I guess it's like we're practically grafted to the tools of the master. Obviously self mutilation isn't a reasonable compromise, so we're simply going to have to make sure the tools are used in a considerate kind of way or not used at all for that matter. I don't want the privilege myself. But it doesn't divorce you and I from it simply because we understand how ugly the privilege is. It's something we've got to deal with.

I have a hard time dealing with my own privilege. I hate when I catch myself thinking or saying something sexist. It's especially awkward when I try to apologize to somebody who doesn't know that I've wronged them.

"So, I'm really sorry, I said that because I was thinking this really awful thing about you."

[AshleyO]

Frankly, I can't say it enough that I feel incredibly bad about the privileges I have. Seriously... I just do not want them. That list I linked was interesting. I wasn't aware of how many privileges I had but I'm still not sure if these are some that I can use or if I'm guilty of using them. It does fuck with me though because if I'm cognizant of it, I do nothing much but feel guilty. Damn. I'm going to spend a long ass time feeling guilty.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Frankly, I can't say it enough that I feel incredibly bad about the privileges I have. Seriously... I just do not want them. That list I linked was interesting. I wasn't aware of how many privileges I had but I'm still not sure if these are some that I can use or if I'm guilty of using them. It does fuck with me though because if I'm cognizant of it, I do nothing much but feel guilty. Damn. I'm going to spend a long ass time feeling guilty.

Feeling guilty doesn't really help, and you can't exactly help it.

Think of it this way. There was this public meeting thing recently that an oil company held to try to make us feel better about running a pipe line into the harbour. There's this woman I know who breathes environmentalism and asked hard questions that showed that she did a lot of research and she knows what the fuck she's talking about. The speakers treated her like a little girl and didn't directly answer her at all, but gave more attention and care to the Occupy guys who asked more general questions. That's privilege in action, people listen to you and take you more seriously if you're white and male on top of that.

There's a guy I volunteer with at the crisis centre who's really awesome about that kind of thing though. He know he has privilege and like you doesn't want it, but his attitude about it is that he'll use that privilege to bring attention to that privilege and he's one of those guys that I know would have my back if something like above happened. He's brilliant at talking to other men and calling them out so we don't have to burn ourselves out trying to, and listens with a open mind and doesn't get defensive, but uses what he learns to better himself as an ally. Cool cat, that guy.

[Versus]

You shouldn't feel bad. It's not like you did anything. I think empathy and understanding is enough. I appreciate that I'm an American and have a lot more then most of the world, but I'm not guilty about it. It's like when you donate to charity. I don't do it because I feel bad that I'm fortunate, I do it because I empathize that people are unfortunate.

Also, Deadman would be conflicted to know that I donate a month's pay to the Wounded Warrior project every year.

[Despanan]

I'll come back to this tomorrow. I think we could all stand to chill the fuck out.

[Versus]

Saya? Do you think you need to chill out?

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

Feeling guilty doesn't really help, and you can't exactly help it.

Think of it this way. There was this public meeting thing recently that an oil company held to try to make us feel better about running a pipe line into the harbour. There's this woman I know who breathes environmentalism and asked hard questions that showed that she did a lot of research and she knows what the fuck she's talking about. The speakers treated her like a little girl and didn't directly answer her at all, but gave more attention and care to the Occupy guys who asked more general questions. That's privilege in action, people listen to you and take you more seriously if you're white and male on top of that.

You see, that's outrageous. I don't dig it. She was asking the hard hitting questions. Today in creative writing class, something like that happened when we were critiquing a paper of a fellow student. I always talk cause I love the class and started getting quieter because I ALWAYS talk. But today, I opted to stay silent for a second while other people were talking. There was this black girl who had her hand raised for at least 5 minutes or more before the teacher got to her. I thought it was strange that in a room full of different races, I started to notice that a lot of the white people were being picked before people of color could speak. And it broke down from white male, to white female, to black female. The sad thing is, I don't think it was even intentional. It's not like it was malicious, it was more or less an institutionalized accident.

There's a guy I volunteer with at the crisis centre who's really awesome about that kind of thing though. He know he has privilege and like you doesn't want it, but his attitude about it is that he'll use that privilege to bring attention to that privilege and he's one of those guys that I know would have my back if something like above happened. He's brilliant at talking to other men and calling them out so we don't have to burn ourselves out trying to, and listens with a open mind and doesn't get defensive, but uses what he learns to better himself as an ally. Cool cat, that guy.

Mmm.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

Saya? Do you think you need to chill out?

No sir.

AshleyO, that is gross. I know its a hard thing to do in class, but is there any way to challenge the teacher on that? Discretely if you don't think its a conscious thing?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

No sir.

Weird. AshleyO, do you think you need to chill out?

[AshleyO]

Yo, I'm just having a conversation. I'm over here feeling all guilty and shit. I don't need to chill out, I need to fucking think.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

No sir.

AshleyO, that is gross. I know its a hard thing to do in class, but is there any way to challenge the teacher on that? Discretely if you don't think its a conscious thing?

Here's the fucked up part.

I was literally POINTING AT HER. I don't know how to make it discreet without making a huge issue out of it.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Yo, I'm just having a conversation. I'm over here feeling all guilty and shit. I don't need to chill out, I need to fucking think.

Weird. spookyprivilegedtext

[Saya]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Here's the fucked up part.

I was literally POINTING AT HER. I don't know how to make it discreet without making a huge issue out of it.

I meant like talking to the teacher in private, but I get what you mean.

At Rebelles last year I felt terrible after a debate on prostitution literally boiled down to women of colour vs white women, and the white women were accusing the women of colour of oppressing them, the white academics felt oppressed by the First Nations woman. SERIOUSLY. We had to line up to add our input or ask the panel a question, and a lot of white women got ahead first and those in the back didn't have time to get input in, and I feel like in that instance we really should abandon our value of the line up in favour of not hearing the same thing over and over. And honestly, I felt so bad about it but its taken me a year to articulate why, and I still feel bad I never said anything.

[Versus]

I want to share, but I'm really ashamed about some of the things.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

I want to share, but I'm really ashamed about some of the things.

I've done worse things than that! I wish there was a privilege confessional box sometimes. "Forgive me father, for I have oppressed."

[Versus]

70 year old and 300 lbs Queer black transwoman hears you.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

I've done worse things than that! I wish there was a privilege confessional box sometimes. "Forgive me father, for I have oppressed."

Same here, I've even done it on gnet *shame*


You know what guys, I'm feeling pretty damn chill myself. Don't really have the energy to go back and respond to some previous points but V pretty much said most of what I would have said so I don't really need to.


AO have you ever looked into a White Ribbon Campaign? I don't know if there is an active one near you, they started in Canada, have spread to the UK, and are starting to crop up in the US but they are an amazing way to use male privilege to end violence against women, a cause that is greatly lacking in male involvement. They pledge to never commit, condone or remain silent about violence against women and girls (taken from their website, emphasis mine). I worked with a local campaign, it was small, only about five core members and at any given point maybe five or six additional guys but they would come out whenever the group I was with had any events or whatever to raise awareness, sometimes we would only have a single one of their members, especially when we went to local schools but they were absolutely amazing to work with and I really saw a huge difference being made by this handful of guys, after all they could get through to people who I couldn't and people who could not identify with me and therefor my message didn't resonate to them were able to see someone there who they could identify with and that really helped them see that it wasn't just a woman's issue, it is a cause that everyone can and should care about.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

I meant like talking to the teacher in private, but I get what you mean.

At Rebelles last year I felt terrible after a debate on prostitution literally boiled down to women of colour vs white women, and the white women were accusing the women of colour of oppressing them, the white academics felt oppressed by the First Nations woman. SERIOUSLY. We had to line up to add our input or ask the panel a question, and a lot of white women got ahead first and those in the back didn't have time to get input in, and I feel like in that instance we really should abandon our value of the line up in favour of not hearing the same thing over and over. And honestly, I felt so bad about it but its taken me a year to articulate why, and I still feel bad I never said anything.

It goes deeper and I'm bothered by it. I'm not a guy who likes to try to take a leadership role. It's not my style. But the past few semesters, I've felt like I had to step up and get discussions in all my classes going. Now this is predominantly a school of people of color. And from what I've seen, there's almost this hesitation in the classes for people to speak up. Now granted, there are a lot of white people too and they also don't speak up very often. The thing is, I have to wonder if perhaps some of the reasons they don't talk is because I get excited and start discussing things. I can't know for sure. I almost want to take a vow of silence because I'm not sure if I'm just steam rolling people or what.

Another thing that's starting to bother me is that most of the people in my creative writing class are women. At least 65% women. And what's just god damned weird is how rare it is that they ever say anything. I really wonder if there's something going on that we're not really aware of.