Atheism+

[Versus]

Stand the fuck by.

[Solumina]

I highly doubt that it was an innocent mistake, but even if it was innocent people shouldn't react by saying that she is wrong or overreacting, they should be wondering what the fuck would make someone think that is a good way/time/location to approach a girl.

First off approaching someone as the very tail end of the night when they are going to their room is a bad move, the person is tired and they are not looking for companionship or else they would not have left the place with people to go to a place with no people. And god forbid she is drunk, that should be an automatic sign to not approach her, unfortunately lots of guys seem to think the exact opposite. In this situation she seems like an easy target and chances are that she knows predatory men will see her as such, therefore she is even more likely to react badly to any approach.

Also for fucks sake an elevator is a really scary place to be approached, I honestly don't know if it is possible for a guy to understand just how fucking terrifying that could be. You are trapped in a very small space with a man you do not know, even if you could get to the door you can't just open it to escape and nobody can get in to help you either until the thing comes to a stop on a floor and a hell of a lot can happen in the time it takes to travel one floor. Here is a newsflash for people who don't think that is a big deal: it really fucking is. Not because all men are rapists but the truth is that a large percentage of men actually are and an even higher percentage of men, men who would never even consider ****** a women, react really, really badly to being rejected. I don't mean that they get all whiny, I mean they will react with everything up to a full on verbal and physical assault.

To you it is just one woman overreacting to a guy hitting on her, but to me and to countless other women it is the essence of something that happens with terrifying regularity. Something that we alter our actions and our lives trying to diminish but that we know we will never be able to fully avoid.

[AshleyO]

SON OF A FUCK!

^^^^ Solumina x10000000000

[Jonathan]

What the hell kind of a question is that? I'm too damn shy to pull anything of the sort, so can we try to leave the personal insults to Versus? It's ok when he does it because he's cute but anyone else makes me feel icky.

The actual context of what happened was something like "Don't take this the wrong way but I find you very interesting and would like talk with you, would you like to come to my and have some coffee?"

So... he should have not approached unless there was some clear and yet apparently completely arbitrary indication that he was invited to speak?

This is pretty hilarious. How do you meet new people?

[Solumina]

And you seem to have missed the point entirely. Don't approach someone in that situation. It is a bad fucking situation for an approach. I don't care how charming or good looking someone is if they talked to me in that situation, not even hit on me but just talked, I would squirm. It is that vulnerable of a situation. Anything more than a slight smile and maybe a head nod is just not a good idea unless the girl initiates the conversation (which women do when we want to talk to people and feel safe).

Now if the next morning I saw that same person while I was in the lobby of that same building and he started talking to me and asked me out I would be a hell of a lot more receptive because it is a safe environment. I wouldn't feel nearly so vulnerable so not only would it be more comfortable for me, you would actually get a more genuine reaction from me as I wouldn't be mostly calculating my risk and trying to find a way to flee without incurring your wrath.




In short environment and surroundings can mean everything.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I highly doubt that it was an innocent mistake, but even if it was innocent people shouldn't react by saying that she is wrong or overreacting, they should be wondering what the fuck would make someone think that is a good way/time/location to approach a girl.

I never said she was wrong to feel uncomfortable. It's totally her right to feel however she wanted to about it. I think the reactions were/are hilariously over the top.

First off approaching someone as the very tail end of the night when they are going to their room is a bad move, the person is tired and they are not looking for companionship or else they would not have left the place with people to go to a place with no people. And god forbid she is drunk, that should be an automatic sign to not approach her, unfortunately lots of guys seem to think the exact opposite. In this situation she seems like an easy target and chances are that she knows predatory men will see her as such, therefore she is even more likely to react badly to any approach.

She'd have been within rights to tell the guy to piss off. She doesn't owe him a conversation and I never suggested otherwise. I don't know if she was drunk, she didn't say she was, so we're left at pure conjecture and discussing alternate scenarios that didn't happen so what's the point?
Maybe he was really Spider Man and wanted to make sure she'd be ok? Or maybe, and this is a stretch, maybe he wanted to talk to her over coffee? We can assume negative things like he's a potential predator, but not give him the benefit of the doubt?

How was he supposed to know she was tired and didn't want to be approached? From the sounds of things people were coming and going at all hours. She left her friends still at the bar, so 4:00 AM might sound late to you or me but I'm not on Dublin time for the weekend so maybe its different what with time zones? Who the hell knows.

Also for fucks sake an elevator is a really scary place to be approached, I honestly don't know if it is possible for a guy to understand just how fucking terrifying that could be. You are trapped in a very small space with a man you do not know, even if you could get to the door you can't just open it to escape and nobody can get in to help you either until the thing comes to a stop on a floor and a hell of a lot can happen in the time it takes to travel one floor. Here is a newsflash for people who don't think that is a big deal: it really fucking is. Not because all men are rapists but the truth is that a large percentage of men actually are and an even higher percentage of men, men who would never even consider ****** a women, react really, really badly to being rejected. I don't mean that they get all whiny, I mean they will react with everything up to a full on verbal and physical assault.

So the acceptable course of action was to wait for the next elevator? It could have been dangerous, sure, but it wasn't. So...

To you it is just one woman overreacting to a guy hitting on her, but to me and to countless other women it is the essence of something that happens with terrifying regularity. Something that we alter our actions and our lives trying to diminish but that we know we will never be able to fully avoid.

No, to me it is an internet community over-reacting to a guy hitting on someone. I've said multiple times she can feel anything she likes about the encounter - happy, sad, quixotic, chartreuse, whatever. I might not agree with her reaction, but I don't have to, do I? I never said she was a bad person for feeling whatever she might have felt or not felt. Her personal reaction is her own. I'll admit I think making a video blog about this awkward moment is a little weird, but she's got the right.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

What the hell kind of a question is that? I'm too damn shy to pull anything of the sort, so can we try to leave the personal insults to Versus? It's ok when he does it because he's cute but anyone else makes me feel icky.

So you're going to minimize Versus like that? I can intimidate you with legitimate questions, but what? You think it's cute when Versus busts your balls? You really are a creep.

The actual context of what happened was something like "Don't take this the wrong way but I find you very interesting and would like talk with you, would you like to come to my and have some coffee

The fuck? Were you there? How the fuck does this make it any less significant? It was in an elevator at 4 in the morning, while she was possibly drunk, and she's even "politely" solicited for sexual relations? Holy shit. I think I understand why you probably don't get a lot of dates.

So... he should have not approached unless there was some clear and yet apparently completely arbitrary indication that he was invited to speak?

This is pretty hilarious. How do you meet new people?

God damn. Creepy.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Anything more than a slight smile and maybe a head nod is just not a good idea unless the girl initiates the conversation (which women do when we want to talk to people and feel safe).

Boom, headshot. Men cannot initiate conversations. OK, I get it. Done.

[AshleyO]

Jon. Homework assignment.

http://www.microaggressions.com/

View this page. Read the statements.

Each item has been listed because the submitter feels attacked in some way. Your goal is to understand why they feel this way. Your goal is not to judge whether or not they are "wrong" to feel that way--put that thought out of your head entirely. Once you have done this, we can begin to have a conversation about why this Watergate was a problem.

Your own statements that she overreacted is already offensive. Do you understand why?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

So you're going to minimize Versus like that? I can intimidate you with legitimate questions, but what? You think it's cute when Versus busts your balls? You really are a creep.

If you cannot determine that that context was completely tongue-in-cheek, then I don't know what to tell you.

The fuck? Were you there? How the fuck does this make it any less significant? It was in an elevator at 4 in the morning, while she was possibly drunk, and she's even "politely" solicited for sexual relations? Holy shit. I think I understand why you probably don't get a lot of dates.

No, I wasn't there. I watched her video where she describes the encounter, and transcribed from memory what she said. I'll take her account at face value until I have a reason not to.

She wasn't solicited for sex, politely or otherwise, she was solicited for coffee. I don't get a lot of dates because I fear inadvertently threatening someone by saying hello.

God damn. Creepy.

Whatever.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Jon. Homework assignment.

http://www.microaggressions.com/

View this page. Read the statements.

Each item has been listed because the submitter feels attacked in some way. Your goal is to understand why they feel this way. Your goal is not to judge whether or not they are "wrong" to feel that way--put that thought out of your head entirely. Once you have done this, we can begin to have a conversation about why this Watergate was a problem.

Your own statements that she overreacted is already offensive. Do you understand why?

I will undertake this assigment when you can show where I said anywhere in this now page long drift that Watson was wrong to feel what she felt.

Your counter assigmnet is to reply here and either help me find where I wrote that, or admit that I didn't and you are making shit up about what I am saying groundlessly. Fair?

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

We can assume negative things like he's a potential predator, but not give him the benefit of the doubt?

You can but I can't take that chance.

I don't have that luxury. 26% of women in the US will be sexually assaulted at least once before they even hit 18. I can't take the risk that someone I know nothing about is safe, hell I can't even take the risk that someone I see every day is safe. And to top it off if I do get assaulted chances are that society will blame me for getting myself in that situation.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Boom, headshot. Men cannot initiate conversations. OK, I get it. Done.

Are you being purposefully dense? I explained why that was a bad place to initiate conversation and I gave an example of where you could initiate conversation. The fuck are you on about?

While we are talking can you stop acting like you are somehow a victim here? You act like us saying that you should not talk to a girl in that situation is somehow hurting you, your desire to talk to me should NEVER outweigh my right to feel safe.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I will undertake this assigment when you can show where I said anywhere in this now page long drift that Watson was wrong to feel what she felt.

Your counter assigmnet is to reply here and either help me find where I wrote that, or admit that I didn't and you are making shit up about what I am saying groundlessly. Fair?

No, to me it is an internet community over-reacting to a guy hitting on someone. I've said multiple times she can feel anything she likes about the encounter - happy, sad, quixotic, chartreuse, whatever. I might not agree with her reaction, but I don't have to, do I? I never said she was a bad person for feeling whatever she might have felt or not felt. Her personal reaction is her own. I'll admit I think making a video blog about this awkward moment is a little weird, but she's got the right.

Why do YOU think this is weird? Would it have been better for her to say nothing of the situation? Would you deem that far more appropriate because YOU can shrug off odd encounters far more easily than she can?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Are you being purposefully dense? I explained why that was a bad place to initiate conversation and I gave an example of where you could initiate conversation. The fuck are you on about?

While we are talking can you stop acting like you are somehow a victim here? Us saying that you should not talk to a girl in that situation is somehow hurting you, your desire to talk to me should NEVER outweigh my right to feel safe.

Did... did you just insult me and then tell me not to act like a victim?

It doesn't hurt me, I fully support your right to tell people to fuck off whether you are in an enclosed space at 4:00 am or in a bright sunny park full of laughing children.

[Solumina]

Well when typical reactions to telling someone off, or even just saying as nicely as possible that I'm not interested can range from petty insults to getting my head shoved into the wall hard enough to give me a concussion I, and pretty much every single woman in the world, will continue to be really fucking pissed off by guys approaching us in unsafe situations and the people who think they have a right to make us feel unsafe just cuz they want to get to know us.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Why do YOU think this is weird? Would it have been better for her to say nothing of the situation? Would you deem that far more appropriate because YOU can shrug off odd encounters far more easily than she can?

"The situation" was literally being asked for coffee after hitting the bar at a convention, and refusing. To even make this into some kind of controversial event we have to invent all kinds of salacious details like "what if she had been drunk!" - well, if she had been drunk, then it would have been an entirely different situation. I'm not talking about that hypothetical, I'm trying to wrap my brain around why this girl being asked for coffee and telling someone no is an event worthy of polarizing a community of atheists. It's fucking bizarre.

It isn't inappropriate of her to make youtube videos where she talks about her feelings and how she personally feels about being talked to in elevators.

I think it's weird to fixate on why it is totally unacceptable to speak to someone at a convention, where you ostensibly have some kind of common ground with your fellow attendees and speakers. Especially when "the situation" was defused by saying "no." Done, the end.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Well when typical reactions to telling someone off, or even just saying as nicely as possible that I'm not interested can range from petty insults to getting my head shoved into the wall hard enough to give me a concussion I, and pretty much every single woman in the world, will continue to be really fucking pissed off by guys approaching us in unsafe situations and the people who think they have a right to make us feel unsafe just cuz they want to get to know us.

That is completely unacceptable and every human being should respect the wishes of a person who doesn't want to engage with them. If you don't want to talk then they should leave it at that and leave you in peace.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Are you being purposefully dense? I explained why that was a bad place to initiate conversation and I gave an example of where you could initiate conversation. The fuck are you on about?

While we are talking can you stop acting like you are somehow a victim here? You act like us saying that you should not talk to a girl in that situation is somehow hurting you, your desire to talk to me should NEVER outweigh my right to feel safe.

Because his wall of male privilege tells him that men are entitled to approach women. Point blank, that's all it is. He was told that Watson isn't overreacting and that her reaction should be respected... that in fact, it IS a big deal. He was even told why her reaction wasn't over the top by an actual woman who was able to share a perspective that I fucking know that nobody else here thought of, and he's still too cracker von patriarch to think about what **** culture means.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

"The situation" was literally being asked for coffee after hitting the bar at a convention, and refusing. To even make this into some kind of controversial event we have to invent all kinds of salacious details like "what if she had been drunk!" - well, if she had been drunk, then it would have been an entirely different situation. I'm not talking about that hypothetical, I'm trying to wrap my brain around why this girl being asked for coffee and telling someone no is an event worthy of polarizing a community of atheists. It's fucking bizarre.

There you go. Instead of trying to understand WHY this situation bothered her; you're insisting that she is somehow wrong by misunderstanding her own situation.

It isn't inappropriate of her to make youtube videos where she talks about her feelings and how she personally feels about being talked to in elevators.

I think it's weird to fixate on why it is totally unacceptable to speak to someone at a convention, where you ostensibly have some kind of common ground with your fellow attendees and speakers. Especially when "the situation" was defused by saying "no." Done, the end.

You minimize her message by insisting that she's overreacting. She wasn't overreacting. YOU don't experience the same dangers that she does. YOU are not a woman.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

That is completely unacceptable and every human being should respect the wishes of a person who doesn't want to engage with them. If you don't want to talk then they should leave it at that and leave you in peace.

Accept that they usually don't leave you in peace, and what people should do is the exact opposite of what they really do. It's bullshit to put women into a situation where they have to feel threatened regardless if you are innocent in your intentions or not. Women the world over recognize this because it's very real. Your argument of common sense is based on your experience with this as an academic discourse. In short, it's not real to you and your opinion doesn't amount for shit. You're just being too much of a chode to realize it.

[Versus]

Correction to my last: All after you're just being a too much of a chode should read as you just are too much of a chode.

[Alan]

The thing that made me turn around is realizing that the problem is not so much that the guy asked her if she wanted to go 'for some coffee' but rather that so many people would later tell her she's overreacting to what she felt that night.

I've done something similar to this guy twice in my life. Twice because I was drunk. The correct response to yourself should be "wow, what a big damn casanova I was yesterday, I feel like a dick." It shouldn't be a response to her in the manner of 'hey weren't you the girl that got pissed because I wanted to pork her? Chill the fuck out, it was just a drunken incident."

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

There you go. Instead of trying to understand WHY this situation bothered her; you're insisting that she is somehow wrong by misunderstanding her own situation.

You minimize her message by insisting that she's overreacting. She wasn't overreacting. YOU don't experience the same dangers that she does. YOU are not a woman.

The situation bothered her because someone talked to her in a time and place that she didn't want to be talked to.

There are really only two reasonable interpretations - the guy literally just wanted coffee with her, or was using coffee as a pretext for sex. Please fucking note I said both interpretations are reasonable. Here, I'll do one better: he was clearly only interested in having sex with her. OK, great, she didn't want to, he respected her decision, they both went on their merry ways.

At that time, she didn't know if there was any danger. Fine, great, perfectly reasonable; we have no context whatsoever about body language, tone, or anything other than "He was male and they were in an elevator." If the guy pushed the issue at all, or refused to let her off the elevator without getting her number or something, I'd be totally running for my horse and lance right now to decry him as an asshole predator.

But that didn't happen. She got off the elevator, and made it her room safe. I am sorry, but being flirted with, even awkwardly, is not something I can see as a social wrong in need of redress.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

The thing that made me turn around is realizing that the problem is not so much that the guy asked her if she wanted to go 'for some coffee' but rather that so many people would later tell her she's overreacting to what she felt that night.

I've done something similar to this guy twice in my life. Twice because I was drunk. The correct response to yourself should be "wow, what a big damn casanova I was yesterday, I feel like a dick." It shouldn't be a response to her in the manner of 'hey weren't you the girl that got pissed because I wanted to pork her? Chill the fuck out, it was just a drunken incident."

That was initially what I was irate about. I didn't understand why she felt threatened until Sol educated me, but I was at least able to recognize that it's fucking wrong to dismiss her like so many people do.