An Attempt to Uncover the Truth About September 11th, 2001

[Binkie]

Sternn, go to the FBI's site, look it up on Wikipedia, look it up on google... whatever. Search for a list of the 19 9/11 hijackers. Those two aren't on that list. It's fairly black and white.

[CptSternn]

Thats as they were removed and replaced with other names due to the court cases AS MENTIONED IN THE FBI BACKED STATEMENT LISTED ABOVE on the CNN website.

They merely grabbed two other arabic sounding names and threw them on the 'new list' of hijackers. Those lads sued, successfully, the FBI, and now the 'ammended' list of hijackers has names different than the ones that were broadcast across the country for almost a year. Different names, and now no pictures, whenever anyone talks about the '19 hijackers'. My question still is, once again, which you are sidestepping, why were those two men listed? I mean, I remember within hours of the attack those pictures and names being shown on telly, and they claimed with no hesitation it was 'these 19 men'. Now years after they claim, no, it's THESE 19 men, not those.

Of course the names aren't still listed there. THEY SUED AND HAD THEIR NAMES REMOVED. The FBI has put up the next two arabs on the plane as the hijackers. In fact, I'd like to know where they got the two replacement names from to begin with - maybe you can answer that?

[Binkie]

These "lads" are suing? Ah hahahaha! Proof that you're making shit up again. Ameer Bukhari is dead. He was dead a year before 9/11. How is he suing? As for Adnan Bukhari, provide the source of your information that he's suing or sued the FBI... ever. I'd be interested in seeing it. Scratch that - I'd be EXTREMELY interested in seeing that. Especially since you used the word "they" to describe a dead man who apparently filed a lawsuit from the grave and there's no information on a lawsuit ever being filed on behalf of Adnan.

And no, the list of the original 19 hijackers never changed. Here's the FBI's original press release in September of 2001 that first publicly indicated the 19 hijackers:

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/091401hj.htm

See if you can find either name. Oh wait, that's part of the conpiracy - they went back and changed the information on their original press releases and the news stories from the Associated Press still posted on independant websites like:

http://www2.jsonline.com/news/nat/se...ofile91401.asp

Hmmm... apparently you are the only one with this information, Sternn. You should contact the Associated Press and the New York Times immediately and inform them that the FBI's original press release, found on their website, was doctored by them!

[CptSternn]

Are you just not looking at the CNN articles? And the CNN retraction? I have posted it twice now and you fail to even read it obviously as it directly contridicts what you say.

[Binkie]

Do you just not realize that it was only CNN who ran those two names? Everyone else had the list of the 19 hijackers released by the FBI - the one you claim was changed but can't back up. No one else published those names. It's only CNN who reported this and only CNN who apologized. There's no mention of lawsuits or of either men being amongst the list of the 19 hijackers. The original list of the 19 hijackers did not have either name on it. As I said before, this is black and white. Neither name can be found on the FBI's list of the 19 hijackers.

[CptSternn]

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/...kers-alive.htm

All the listed links are there but here is the text...

Abdul Aziz Al-Omari (Flight 11) (Trained Pilot)

The identities of two men with the same name have been cobbled together to create an FBI "terrorist". Both are Alive!

The first has the same name, the same birth date as one of the FBI "terrorists" but has no idea how to fly.

The second has the name Abdul Rahman Al-Omari and a different birth date, but is the person pictured by the FBI and is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines.

Here are some quotes from the world's media concerning them.

Omari Number 1

"A Saudi man has reported to authorities that he is the real Abdul Aziz Al-Omari, and claims his passport was stolen in 1995 while he studied electrical engineering at the University of Denver. Al-Omari says he informed police of the theft." - ABCNews

"I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001

"The name (listed by the FBI) is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York," Abdul Aziz Al-Omari told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.

"Al-Omari has since been found in Saudi Arabia and is apparently cleared in the case" - New York Times

"Saudi Embassy officials in Washington have challenged his identity. They say a Saudi electrical engineer named Abdul Aziz Al-Omari had his passport and other papers stolen in 1996 in Denver when he was a student and reported the theft to police there at the time." - BBC

"Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Sa�d Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001 (translate)

Omari Number 2

Mr. Al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, walked into the US embassy in Jeddah to demand why he was being reported as a dead hijacker in the American media.

"Abdul Aziz Al-Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines" - BBC 23rd September 2001

"A pilot with Saudi Airlines, was astonished to find himself accused of hijacking � as well as being dead � and has visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation." - Independent 17th September 2001

This Al-Omari lives with his wife and four children in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saeed Al-Ghamdi (Flight 93) (Trained Pilot)

"Saeed Al-Ghamdi is one of three hijackers that US officials have said are linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network." - BBC

No BBC! Mr. Al-Ghamdi is still alive and well and at his job for Tunis Air.

"I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001

"Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Al-Ghamdi." - BBC 23rd September 2001

"Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Sa�d Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001 (translate)

"..... not dead and had nothing to do with the heinous terror attacks in New York and Washington." - Saudi embassy


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Waleed Al-Shehri (Flight 11) (Trained Pilot)

"A sixth person on the FBI's list, Saudi national Waleed Al-Shehri, is living in Casablanca, according to an official with the Royal Air Moroc, the Moroccan commercial airline. According to the unnamed official, Al-Shehri lived in Dayton Beach, Fla., where he took flight training at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Now he works for a Moroccan airline." On Sept. 22, Associated Press reported that Alshehri had spoken to the U.S. embassy in Morocco.

"His photograph was released by the FBI, and has been shown in newspapers and on television around the world. That same Mr Al-Shehri has turned up in Morocco, proving clearly that he was not a member of the suicide attack." - Daily Trust 24th September 2001.

"He was reported to have been in Hollywood, Florida, for a month earlier this year but his father, Ahmed, said that Waleed was alive and well and living in Morocco." - Telegraph

"Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well." - BBC 23rd September 2001.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahmed Al-Nami (Flight 93)

"I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001


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Salem Al-Hazmi (Flight 77)

"Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001.


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Khalid Al-Mihdhar (Flight 77)

"Saudi officials at the embassy were unable to verify the whereabouts of the fifth accused hijacker, Khalid Al-Mihdhar. However, Arab newspapers say Al-Mihdhar is still alive.

"..... there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar may also be alive." - BBC 23rd September 2001


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Others accused of being involved:

Ameer Bukhari

"Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash last year." - CNN Correction

Adnan Bukhari

"Adnan Bukhari is still in Florida" - CNN Correction

Amer Kamfar

".... that a suspect sought by the FBI, Amer Kamfar, was in fact an alive pilot in Arabia. " - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001 [translate]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even after the above has appeared in the world's media the FBI has made no attempt to alter its web-sites which clearly list the wrong names, wrong photos, wrong identities and probably wrong nationalities of the real hijackers.

Given that the hijackers (if there were any) were clearly using false identities, why has the FBI never attempted to find out the hijackers true identities? Why does the FBI seem totally disinterested in apprehending the real culprits? This lack of action from one of our "trusted" government departments is very close to treason.

You can check the site and follow the news links which accompany each listing there if you want. A dozen seperate news sources all linked to articles, not just CNN, that each discredit your argument.

[CptSternn]

But I thought this was interesting...

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635198488,00.html

Physicist says heat substance felled WTC

Extremely hot fires caused structures to fail, BYU expert says

By Suzanne Dean
For the Deseret Morning News

EPHRAIM — A Brigham Young University physicist said he now believes an incendiary substance called thermite, bolstered by sulfur, was used to generate exceptionally hot fires at the World Trade Center on 9/11, causing the structural steel to fail and the buildings to collapse.
"It looks like thermite with sulfur added, which really is a very clever idea," Steven Jones, professor of physics at BYU, told a meeting of the Utah Academy of Science, Arts and Letters at Snow College Friday.
The government requires standard explosives to contain tag elements enabling them to be traced back to their manufacturers. But no tags are required in aluminum and iron oxide, the materials used to make thermite, he said. Nor, he said, are tags required in sulfur.
Jones is co-chairman, with James H. Fetzer, a distinguished professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group of college faculty members who believe conspirators other than pilots of the planes were directly involved in bringing down New York's Trade Towers.

*snip*

Their arguments are backed by many facts and actually photographic and scientific evidence. Good read.

[Binkie]

Ah haha! You're so lost, you're now resorting to copying entire pages off of conspiracy sites. Pathetic.

Try to click on some of those links, Sternn. The articles don't exist anymore. The ones that do are post dated September, 2001. We've already been through this, or at least I have... I doubt you comprehended what I was saying, as demonstrated by you throwing more articles at me dated only in September of 2001. The story was found to be bogus shortly after and the articles disappeared, which may be one of the reasons half of them don't even exist anymore on their respective links.

Again, these sites can't produce news articles dated beyond September 2001, can't provide photographs of the "real people" to compare with those of the hijackers. None of the major news organizations adhere to these stories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2294487.stm

Why would BBC suddenly describe Atta as the ringleader in it's own words? I thought he was alive and well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...portaltop.html

Huh, the Telegraph describes Atta as "the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US?" I thought he was alive too. This doesn't make any sense, Sternn. Explain to me why these same news organizations are saying these men, which are "alive," are still responsbile for the 9/11 attacks in their own words.

I bet that second article is a good read. You should look at the FEMA report and the NIST's report due out here soon that both indicate the towers collapsed from fires caused by the planes. The NIST's report is the most comprehensive ever conducted on the collapse of a building. Top notch stuff. Their research is backed up by the "who's who" of public and private sector structural and fire engineers. Oh wait, that means 9/11 isn't a conspiracy. You don't want to read THAT!

[CptSternn]

[quote=Binkie]that means 9/11 isn't a conspiracy. QUOTE]#

Once again, you argue amongst yerself. If you look back, your the only one convinced. In fact, like before, other than myself, everyone else has given up on you, as you are so pathetic, trying to convince yerself.

Not one person here, not one other person in this thread, agrees with you. Not one article supports you. People give up on you, and see the thread as a lost cause as we see our own points, and see die-hard bush supporters like yerself as a lost cause. No matter what we argue, you try to argue the opposite. No reason to argue, time is the great truth teller.

...And in the meantime, we all ignore you as you have fuck-all to say other than once again repeating the same old tire rhetoric. Please, get some new 'evidence' that all of us, the majority, are all insane and its yer wee self that is the sane one, or just let the thread die.

I mean seriously, you are a minority here. I didn't start this thread, I didn't even reply before a dozen others did, then you came in attacking everyone. Just because they don't reply doesn't mean yer right. Just means they know your so lost there is no reason to argue with you. Bush could shoot his own mother on telly, and you would defend him with some crazy theory in thread after thread. We know, no big deal. Just realise we are not giving up on the argument, we just give up on hopeless lost causes like yerself.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

[quote=CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Binkie

that means 9/11 isn't a conspiracy. QUOTE]#

Once again, you argue amongst yerself. If you look back, your the only one convinced. In fact, like before, other than myself, everyone else has given up on you, as you are so pathetic, trying to convince yerself.

Not one person here, not one other person in this thread, agrees with you. Not one article supports you. People give up on you, and see the thread as a lost cause as we see our own points, and see die-hard bush supporters like yerself as a lost cause. No matter what we argue, you try to argue the opposite. No reason to argue, time is the great truth teller.

...And in the meantime, we all ignore you as you have fuck-all to say other than once again repeating the same old tire rhetoric. Please, get some new 'evidence' that all of us, the majority, are all insane and its yer wee self that is the sane one, or just let the thread die.

I mean seriously, you are a minority here. I didn't start this thread, I didn't even reply before a dozen others did, then you came in attacking everyone. Just because they don't reply doesn't mean yer right. Just means they know your so lost there is no reason to argue with you. Bush could shoot his own mother on telly, and you would defend him with some crazy theory in thread after thread. We know, no big deal. Just realise we are not giving up on the argument, we just give up on hopeless lost causes like yerself.

Please do me a great big fucking favor and do not EVER presume to speak for ANYONE on this board.

It's pretty friggin lame for even you to pull such a pathetic card.

Seriously.

Whatever you are smoking, you need to lay off.

Unless the "We" that you repeatedly refer to in the above post, refers to some Multiple Personality Disorder we aren't aware of yet.

Binkie has been a beloved Member and past Moderator for this forum for many years.

Or maybe you have forgotten that tidbit.

And if I recall the only person to ever really agree with you, was Robster667.

Which speaks volumes about your Mystery Support Base.

And before you try "Oh you're just saying that because you're a Republican", since Hurricane Katrina and Rita last summer I am no longer registered as a Republican.

So save your breath.

If the above is the best you can do for a rebuttal, maybe you need to invest in a White Flag.

Have some self-respect for Christs sake.

Think about it.

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Not one person here, not one other person in this thread, agrees with you. Not one article supports you. People give up on you, and see the thread as a lost cause as we see our own points, and see die-hard bush supporters like yerself as a lost cause.

The thing is, Sternn, that we hardly have to add our two cents worth when Binkie does such a great job all by herself.

Since silence, to you, is taken as agreement with you I guess I'm going to have to be more vocal in my support of her. From now on, I'm The Binkster's personal cheerleader!


GO BINKIE!!!!!!

Keep knocking sense into people!!!

Good on ya, Girl!!!

You're my HERO!

*HUGZ*



Sternn, don't ever presume to speak for anyone but yourself when you
slam our girl.

[Binkie]

Thanks EPS and Wolfy. *hugs* You guys don't know how much I appreciate the support. :)

Sternn,
should you ever actually decide you want to continue debating the issue rather than frothing at the mouth cause you're cornered, I invite you to explain this:

Originally Posted by Binkie

Again, these sites can't produce news articles dated beyond September 2001, can't provide photographs of the "real people" to compare with those of the hijackers. None of the major news organizations adhere to these stories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2294487.stm

Why would BBC suddenly describe Atta as the ringleader in it's own words? I thought he was alive and well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...portaltop.html

Huh, the Telegraph describes Atta as "the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US?" I thought he was alive too. This doesn't make any sense, Sternn. Explain to me why these same news organizations are saying these men, which are "alive," are still responsbile for the 9/11 attacks in their own words.

Until then, stop pretending like you're mainstream, because even the papers who ran the bogus story of "they're still alive" report nowadays that these men were indeed the ones who hijacked the planes and crashed them. If you can explain that, go right ahead. If you can't, I think we're done here. :)

[CptSternn]

So once again discarding all those storeys from all those sources. Are you afraid to consider what it means if this is even slightly true? If bush allowed 911 to happen, possibly even helped it along, in efforts to forward along political gains?

Thats the real issue here. The fact that some people, no matter how much information and detail you can show them with facts after fact, article after article, they still won't even consider the possibility.

Because they fear what it means if it true. That all those people died so certain corporations could benefit. That a sitting president allowed mass killings, in the name of corporate greed. That currently, the nation is fighting a war, based on false pretenses, and that other americans are dying for no reason other than to futher along the sharholders stock portfolios.

Is that why you try so hard not to acknowledge those articles?

[Binkie]

*Yawn* I guess we are done here. I told you the stories were bogus and isolated only to the month of September 2001. You can't find me an article published beyond that, nor can you explain to me how every article both the Telegraph and BBC published thereafter concluded in their own words that these men were responsible and very dead.

Because they've done that, it supports what I've been saying all along. The story was found to be bogus and no one acknowledges it anymore in the press.

I've already discredited your claim, especially since you can't seem to explain why the BBC and the Telegraph have all ditched those one-time "alive" stories for saying these men are very dead and were responsible for hijacking the planes. I mean, if you can't explain that, we're done. End of story.

[CptSternn]

They didn't ditch them. Just because you don't credit them doesn't mean they aren't there and that you are right. You are wrong. You can discount the articles posted, and continue to say they don't exists even when I post multiple articles to the same extent.

Once again, the truth has a funny way of coming out. Can't wait until it does.

[CptSternn]

[quote=Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Please do me a great big fucking favor and do not EVER presume to speak for ANYONE on this board.

Unless the "We" that you repeatedly refer to in the above post, refers to some Multiple Personality Disorder we aren't aware of yet.

And if I recall the only person to ever really agree with you, was Robster667.

Which speaks volumes about your Mystery Support Base.

If you go back to the first page of this discussion, you will see at least 6 other people who started this thread who argued the same points I'm arguing. Only binkie said differently. I speak on behalf of those who say there IS something ELSE going on, not saying what, but saying there IS enough evidence to warrant questioning.

Anyone who says its open and shut is just keeping themselves blind on purpose as they are afraid to face the idea that the american government would murder its own people for political goals.

The fact that 50% of New York feels this way, and more and more evidence and more people are saying the same thing NOW, echos this sentiment.

I mean, the bush administration at best has NO credibility. They invaded Iraq on false pretenses. They bunggled Katrina response, they haven't even found a six foot arab in a small country who is on dialasis. But yet they can credtible discount all evidence showing they bungled and or assisted in 9/11? Now we see the first cases of people dying because of breathing the air at ground zero, and they are suing as bush and the EPA claimed the air was 'safe' and told people this for quite sometime. Now someone dies, and they change their storey.

In an administration that is now known for its lies, in polls more americans associated the word 'liar' when they here the word bush than any other word, and has been called out multiple times on these lies, how can anyone believe that they are being 100% forthright in answernig questions like this?

How can anyone buy it?

You mentioned katrina. I remember bush saying 'we had no idea' and then later multiple other statements, which were all discounted when the live video of FEMA speaking with him the day before WARNING HIM of the exact things he claimed 'no one in his administration predicted'. I could go on and on, 'mission accomplished', 'we found WMDs', etc. but my point is simple -

Every major incident since bush has taken office has turned bad, and it has been proven time and time again he out right lies to the world when he speaks. So why should anyone believe him on his 9/11 assertions?

The only reason his arguments have lasted so long on THIS one issue is the fact people DO NOT want to believe bush would actually be invloved in this. The idea of their government pulling this is beyond comprehension. It's like thinking your mother/spouse is trying to kill you while you sleep - a thought you must push from your mind and call insane as if it turns out to be true, it will rock the core of your being, your life and the lives of those around you.

It's easier to discount these lies and ignore evidence as saying that its there and its a possibility bothers you too much to accept that its a viable senario.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

They didn't ditch them. Just because you don't credit them doesn't mean they aren't there and that you are right. You are wrong. You can discount the articles posted, and continue to say they don't exists even when I post multiple articles to the same extent.

Once again, the truth has a funny way of coming out. Can't wait until it does.

They did ditch then, Sternn. Have you not seen recent articles by both the Telegraph and BBC that post-date the "still alive" articles which describe those who are "alive" as being the masterminds behind 9/11, being the hijackers, and being very much dead? I'd say that's pretty much ditching the old idea that they're "still alive," especially since you don't see those articles published anywhere beyond September of 2001. If you want to bury your head in the sand, awesome. As I said before, you're the kind of individual who would lie about it even if you saw a plane crash into the Pentagon.

Wait on for the conspiracy theory to be "exposed." As I said before, maybe someone from the CIA will come out any day now and expose the JFK plot.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Only binkie said differently.

Originally Posted by Sobeh

Damnit Binkie, I'll not have any of your research flummoxing my beliefs! Begone, knave, and hope I don't decide to send out the dogs!

Originally Posted by Wolfmoon

Ah Binkie, once again common sense prevails!

Originally Posted by Xnguela

Binkie, those are all government sources. As we all know, the government is against us and completely fabricated those pictures.

Geez.

Be logical, lady.

Hopefully you're intelligent enough to identify the sarcasm. But just cause I know your history of trying to debate; "Sobeh and Xnguela were being sarcastic."

Originally Posted by CptSternn

The fact that 50% of New York feels this way, and more and more evidence and more people are saying the same thing NOW, echos this sentiment.

Cite ONE scentific poll that discovered this.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

How can anyone buy it?

Like leading structural and fire engineers, the families of the victims (some of whom sat in a courtroom not too long ago and listened to their loved ones try to break into the cockpit of Flight 93), families of the hijackers who have never had their children materialize again, NATO countries who invaded Afghanistan based on our evidence of al-Qaeda's involvement, Saudi Arabia, the Associated Press, the BBC, the Telegraph, CNN, Fox News, CBS, MSNBC, and a swath of other creditable sources who all "buy" this "conspiracy."

If it's such a "clear cut" case of conspiracy, France, Germany, the UK, and a swath of other countries are all in on it, Sternn. They all took part in invading Afghanistan with us based on "clear cut evidence" presented to NATO.

[Cambodian Breakfast]

I like how conspiracy threories bring out the best in people.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by binkie

Cite ONE scentific poll that discovered this.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855

Released: August 30, 2004

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals

Over half of the people who live in the city that was attacked believe bush “Consciously Failed” to act.

66% also must be 'conspiracy theorists' as they also think the government is hiding something.

[Cambodian Breakfast]

I was in high school when it happend. I said that Bush probly planed it and got the shit kicked out of me. I wouldn't suprise me if he knew all along.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Over half of the people who live in the city that was attacked believe bush “Consciously Failed” to act.

Which doesn't equate to to your radical statement:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

the american government would murder its own people for political goals.

The key difference between what the poll shows and what you honestly believe, is that these people in New York still believe it was the 19 hijackers implicated by the FBI who carried it out. They just think that the US government knew about the plot and didn't stop these individuals. You believe it was the US government who drove the planes into the buildings. That's why this poll does not back up your statement.

You're not mainstream, Sternn.

[Cambodian Breakfast]

Who are they polling?

[Binkie]

"808 adults chosen at random in New York State."

[ExistentialDisorder]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats the real issue here. The fact that some people, no matter how much information and detail you can show them with facts after fact, article after article, they still won't even consider the possibility.

That's exactly why I quit posting or even reading much of this thread.