"It's not a big deal"

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

JILLIAN IS A MAN, ASS.

x

Is she now? Then I suppose that 'he' should stop going by a rather feminine name, shouldn't he? After all, when I cannot see the other person, and they are using what is more commonly used as a female name, is it really all that unrealistic to assume that 'he' is a female? I'm sure that -you- would think so, but most of the logical, emotionally-mature, adult world would realize it isn't.

If Jilly is male, and if he is reasonable, then being occasionally mistaken as a female on the internet shouldn't be terribly upsetting. Mildly irritating, perhaps, but not outrageously so.

It amazes me the things folks will be offended at on the Internet. Are you folks as pleasant in real life as you appear online? ^^;;;;

[For the record, I'm a woman. ]

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Ih. I see where you are coming from, but old habits/norms/preferences die hard. It's nto a big deal? Sure. But everything is a snag. Take the unisex restrooms- doesn't faze me, but to others it would be rather uncomfortable due to gender bias and perceived decorum.

Alternately, having all three Male, Female and Unisex would rock. I like the idea of presenting a challenging option for those who are more stuck, and an option for those who doe have gender gray areas or ideas. I also liek the idea of using unisex to fuck with my date.

I'll go for the idea of having all three as well. I think that that would be a good thing, and would at the very least give everyone a good choice.

I have to wonder, though: would those who are transgendered use the unisex, or their preferred gender's bathroom? [Just a curiosity that came to mind..]

I think that ideas like this are good, because it helps to get folks used to the idea of unisex. Then, eventually perhaps, the idea of using -just- unisex won't be such a big deal. My main point was that suddenly taking out all the male/female signs off the bathroom and forcing society to use unisex...and -only- unisex...without some time to get used to the idea might prove disastrous.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Dude, you know, you're just sounding more stupid every time you talk. Seriously.
You keep saying the same things over and over again.

So do you, love. But then again, you have yet to respond to anything except what you see as the same points over and over again.

I STILL haven't received your response to my idea of getting off of your hind quarters, getting out in the world, and doing something to change things that aren't fair in the world.

Can you fucking read this sentence in my first post:
"I'm really not saying that the commercial above, for example, is absolutely evil and does not deserve to be aired, and TV has to be psychologically regulated for subliminal messages and we should ban hate speech and force neutral pronouns in text books."

Ahh. So then what -would- make you happy then?

How exactly does that fit into your accusation of my avoidance on answering you? Your question doesn't even apply because I never said anything of the sort.

No. You are simply whining about the injustices of the world with no intention of actually doing anything about it. In my book, that's one of the worst things one can do.

Seriously, everything you're saying simply has nothing to do with anything I have said. And some of what you say is simply just devoid of logic anyway:
"I still don't believe that gender-separated bathrooms have anything to do with sexism. If they did, then there would be no shared public toilets anywhere in the states."
Exactly what reasoning is behind this? It really makes no sense to me.

Gender-separated bathrooms are based on the sex and gender of a person physically, but they are not based on the idea that we should keep the genders completely separated from each other. When you compare such an arbitrary thing to, say, the water fountains and the Civil Rights movement, you have piqued an issue that is very close to my heart, and used it to justify a completely foolish idea.

A man will not be arrested if he goes into a women's bathroom as a black man would have been back then for using a white person's water fountain. He might get screamed at and kicked out, but arrested? Not likely. And if one line is full and the other is generally empty, then eventually -someone- will use the other...and no one will think much about it.

The Civil Rights movement involved blacks not being allowed into white stores, soda shops, or even the same schools. By comparison, schools are full of gender-mixed students. You see men AND women in stores everywhere You see boys AND girls playing at the same parks. And if someone is truly discriminated against because of sex or gender, then it's considered a crime.

Do people discriminate based on sex or gender? Yes. Is it right? No. Is making separate bathrooms for men and women based on discrimination? No.

Seriously, just stop. You're still talking about something at least two other people beside me have told you is not the point of this thread.

And I have responded to them in turn, as well as to you.

If you wish to end this conversation, feel free to do so by simply walking away, with a few lessons learned on what to and not to do in an Internet conversation.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

So do you, love. But then again, you have yet to respond to anything except what you see as the same points over and over again.

I am really getting fucking sick of you. When everything you have spewed out has been either addressed from the beginning or is not applicable, how the fuck are you not expecting me to give you the same fucking answers when you make the same fucking questions?
here's your shitty conversation summed up:
Me - separate bathrooms are inherently sexist, but every time I mention it casually, just because, people disregard it.
You - I would feel awkward with unisex bathrooms
Me - Dude, that's not the point
You - I think you're giving it too much seriousness
Me - When was I too serious about this, I just mentioned something that's true?
You - What do you want to do about it?!
Me - I never said anything about doing something about it.
You - Then why are you getting all worked up about it?
Me - I'm not getting worked up about it! This is not even the point of my comment!
You - Then what the hell do you want to do about sexism?

Can you smell the bullshit?

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

You are simply whining about the injustices of the world with no intention of actually doing anything about it. In my book, that's one of the worst things one can do.

Tell me exactly where the fuck did I whine about the injustices in the world?
Was it in here?

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I'm really not saying that the commercial above, for example, is absolutely evil and does not deserve to be aired, and TV has to be psychologically regulated for subliminal messages and we should ban hate speech and force neutral pronouns in text books.

Wow! I'm really a crybaby saying shit like this, huh?!

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I am really getting fucking sick of you. When everything you have spewed out has been either addressed from the beginning or is not applicable, how the fuck are you not expecting me to give you the same fucking answers when you make the same fucking questions?
here's your shitty conversation summed up:
Me - separate bathrooms are inherently sexist, but every time I mention it casually, just because, people disregard it.
You - I would feel awkward with unisex bathrooms
Me - Dude, that's not the point
You - I think you're giving it too much seriousness
Me - When was I too serious about this, I just mentioned something that's true?
You - What do you want to do about it?!
Me - I never said anything about doing something about it.
You - Then why are you getting all worked up about it?
Me - I'm not getting worked up about it! This is not even the point of my comment!
You - Then what the hell do you want to do about sexism?

Can you smell the bullshit?

Tell me exactly where the fuck did I whine about the injustices in the world?
Was it in here?

Wow! I'm really a crybaby saying shit like this, huh?!

In your OP, you are upset because people feel that sexism is no big deal, correct? I have agreed with you that sexism...true sexual discrimination...is a bad thing. What I -disagreed- with is the examples you used, because I quite simply don't think they were good examples of the point you wanted to make.

Sexual discrimination is an excellent topic. And yes, it -is- rude for people to cut you off shortly and walk away. No, your examples weren't good. And if sexual discrimination bothers you, then do something about it. [I'm not saying that you -did- say you'd do something about it; I just don't like to see people go on and on about a subject when they have no intention of doing anything about it, no matter -what- it is...whether or not your point had to do with commercials.]

If you do not wish to discuss the matter any further, then feel free to let it be. Me personally, though, I am rather enjoying our discussion, and could probably go on for a while about it.

Regardless, we shall have to continue this tomorrow; I really do have to get to bed, since I have the daily grind tomorrow morning.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

you are upset because people feel that sexism is no big deal, correct?

You tell me.
All I'm asking of you is quote me the exact moment where I become upset by subconscious gender roles.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You tell me.
All I'm asking of you is quote me the exact moment where I become upset by subconscious gender roles.

Here you go, dearie.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Now, I'm not saying this is the avatar of blatant misogyny or anything, but it is certainly blueprinted this way due to the subconscious emphasis on males rather than females.

Also.....

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Yet people are content with these things, because "It's not a big deal"
Just because society has accustomed itself to certain values doesn't make them right....But what I'm saying is that there are still hints of patriarchy, racism, and elitism everywhere, and harmless or not, it is better to not have them than to have them.

So there you go, love. That is why I believed you were upset about such things.

If I was mistaken, then please forgive me, and feel free to explain your points more clearly next time. [I'm also curious to know who you were speaking to about these things that caused you to post this at all, but I am satisfied with not knowing. ]

Peace to you and yours.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Is she now? Then I suppose that 'he' should stop going by a rather feminine name, shouldn't he? After all, when I cannot see the other person, and they are using what is more commonly used as a female name, is it really all that unrealistic to assume that 'he' is a female? I'm sure that -you- would think so, but most of the logical, emotionally-mature, adult world would realize it isn't.

If Jilly is male, and if he is reasonable, then being occasionally mistaken as a female on the internet shouldn't be terribly upsetting. Mildly irritating, perhaps, but not outrageously so.

It amazes me the things folks will be offended at on the Internet. Are you folks as pleasant in real life as you appear online? ^^;;;;

[For the record, I'm a woman. ]

Do you not pay attention to anything in here besides when you're arguing with someone?

You obviously don't pay attention to the picture thread, the fashion forum, the politics forum, or this new and high profile bullshit with Catch.
If you did, you'd know full well Jillian is a man.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Tam Li Hua...you're not making any fucking sense.
Seriously, you're missing the mark so badly it's not even funny to read this, it's just stupid.

You're really embarrassing yourself here, so do yourself a favor, and maybe try to read this thread FROM THE BEGINNING and try really hard to understand.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Tam Li Hua...you're not making any fucking sense.
Seriously, you're missing the mark so badly it's not even funny to read this, it's just stupid.

You're really embarrassing yourself here, so do yourself a favor, and maybe try to read this thread FROM THE BEGINNING and try really hard to understand.

Ah! Hello Ophelia! How are you on this lovely morning!

If there is something incorrect about my suppositions, I will be more than glad for you to explain them in a calm, non-hostile way. However, since you seem incapable of reacting with anything other than hostility, it's difficult for me to listen to you as the mature adult I know that you surely are.

Pretell, what have I said that you find incorrect that I haven't already corrected? I have read the original post at -least- four times, and have even asked someone else to read it and have discussed it with them. If I am 'missing the point' of -anything-, do feel free to point out where I missed it, and what I am supposed to understand.

Peace to you and yours.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Do you not pay attention to anything in here besides when you're arguing with someone?

You obviously don't pay attention to the picture thread, the fashion forum, the politics forum, or this new and high profile bullshit with Catch.
If you did, you'd know full well Jillian is a man.

Actually, I just recently returned to the site a week or so ago after being gone for several months.

No, I generally do not pay attention to many of the other threads. I check the Spooky News forum occasionally, and this one -very- occasionally. Be that as it may, I -still- believe it is a bit silly to get terribly bent out of shape over someone mistaking the name "Jillian" as female. Like I said, if Jillian does not want to be mistaken as such, then perhaps 'he' should have chosen a less gender-ambiguous name. [Not to mention that Jilly has been acting something like a female when Aunt Flo visits, so it's understandable how I might have mistaken 'him' for a woman. ^_^;;;;]

I will do my best to remember that Jilly is a man from now on.

[Delkaetre]

Tam, a series of points to consider...

I think that one of the main problems here is that you're being incredibly condescending.
You keep calling people 'dear' in that false-affectionate way that people do when they're talking down to children, idiots, or those with less power than them.

Jillian is a gender-neutral name. The first Jillian I ever met was actually a man.

The original post made sense to me. Sure, the example interested me. It's an interesting example. But I spend a lot of time being cut off, talked over, ignored and dismissed by my housemate. I am all too painfully aware of just how galling it is to have things that matter to you, or even things you're just trying to discuss by way of polite conversation, dismissed as if your opinion does not matter or you're overreacting to a general issue which interests you.

For the record, the idea of a male taking a shit in the cubicle next to me doesn't bother me any more than the idea of a female doing the same. There is a wall between us. We have exactly the same privacy to engage in bodily functions which are exactly same. I have to share public transport with men, share office and eating space with them, I'm fine with sharing bathroom space with them. I have had male room mates before as well. The only reason you're bothered is because society teaches you to be bothered about it. It's much easier to let go of these conventions and habits than you'd think.

[PortraitOfSanity]

1/10: this argument fails. Needs more shit-flinging imho.

[Mir]

Another five minutes of my life wasted.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Mir

Another five minutes of my life wasted.

Added to another deliberate half-minute wasted in that. It's just inconsistent.

[Mir]

That half minute was necessary and therefore not counted.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Not necessary if what you want is to not waste your time. And if you don't mind wasting your time, then those five minutes don't matter either.

[Mir]

Necessary because I am annoyed at my luck with having randomly chosen this thread to read.

[Tam Li Hua]

Delkaetre:

-- I admit to and apologize for being condescending. However, I do not feel that me being condescending is any worse than someone else telling me that they think I am stupid or whatnot. :/

-- Yes, Jillian is a gender-neutral name, which is why it is easily mistaken for female. I've only known of one Jillian, and that was a fictional female. [Also, may I ask, if we are shooting for gender equality, then why does it matter whether I understand Jillian to be a male or a female?] My main beef wasn't with being corrected, but was rather being corrected in such a hostile way when it's an easy mistake to make; I feel the hostility was rather unjustified, and I responded as I felt appropriate.

-- I have already responded to the point about being talked over or being cut-off mid-sentence. I sympathized with Jilly, said that it was right for him to be upset, and apologized for misunderstanding. However, I feel a lot of confusion could have been spared if the post had been written a little clearer.

-- You are welcome to find her examples interesting. I found them interesting too, but I did not find them good. [This is simply my opinion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me on it.]

-- You are also welcome to feel comfortable using the facilities with strange men. I am not.

As for society's conventions, I have also already given my viewpoint on this matter. I said that if we want to start installing unisex bathrooms next to males and females, that would be a positive step in the right direction.

However, I do not feel that just because something is a societal convention that it makes it bad. I do not see the separate bathrooms between men and women as offensive any more than I see separate grades in school offensive.

I've had to use the facilities in very...er...unique circumstances, one of which is detailed in one of my above posts. [I have many more than that, since I lived overseas for a few years in a rather unique country. ^^;;;]

-- I know all too well how easy it is to deny social convention; I've never wholly fit into society myself, but it has nothing to do with being Goth or female or anything else like that.

I apologize if I offended anyone; I did not mean to. I meant, rather, simply to express my opinion.

Peace to you all.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

[Not to mention that Jilly has been acting something like a female when Aunt Flo visits, so it's understandable how I might have mistaken 'him' for a woman. ^_^;;;;]

Wow.

Does anyone else find this insanely ridiculous and mildly offensive?
So, if a woman acts indignant/doesn't agree with you/stands up for what she believes in, she's just PMSing?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

-- Yes, Jillian is a gender-neutral name, which is why it is easily mistaken for female. I've only known of one Jillian, and that was a fictional female. [Also, may I ask, if we are shooting for gender equality, then why does it matter whether I understand Jillian to be a male or a female?]

Gender equality does not imply that males and females are exactly the same, and therefore gender neutral.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

-- You are also welcome to feel comfortable using the facilities with strange men. I am not.

But it's ok to use the same restrooms as strange women?
A woman COULD **** you.
A woman COULD beat you to death.
If there were unisex bathrooms, it would increase the likelihood that you could bring someone else (male or female) into the bathroom with you if you're so terrified of using the bathroom with a stranger.

You're also overlooking the fact that those strange men you're so afraid of don't give a flying rat's ass about a sign on a door.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

As for society's conventions, I have also already given my viewpoint on this matter. I said that if we want to start installing unisex bathrooms next to males and females, that would be a positive step in the right direction.

So instead of just acting like a mature adult and/or using your brain about the situation, we're installing new bathrooms?
So you're covering this out of pocket, or...?

(In case that went over your head, I'm commenting on the money it'll take to do that. You see, taxes would have to pay for these new public bathrooms. I'm not paying for your idiocy.)

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

However, I do not feel that just because something is a societal convention that it makes it bad. I do not see the separate bathrooms between men and women as offensive any more than I see separate grades in school offensive.

That's such a shitty comparison I feel like you have to be kidding.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Wow.

Does anyone else find this insanely ridiculous and mildly offensive?
So, if a woman acts indignant/doesn't agree with you/stands up for what she believes in, she's just PMSing?

I do. Tam is a dumb cunt. She must be of the same caliber as Catch.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

She must be of the same caliber as Catch.

I wouldn't go that far, she sometimes has something to add to a conversation, although she really hasn't done any good in this thread. Though I do agree that this thread has gotten rather offensive

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I wouldn't go that far, she sometimes has something to add to a conversation, although she really hasn't done any good in this thread. Though I do agree that this thread has gotten rather offensive

You're right. Catch is a pro. Tam is just TRYING to be the best at being dumb. I'm not sure which is sadder.

[Tam Li Hua]

Uh huh..

I've explained my position. If that's not good enough for you folks, feel free to email me at tamlihua@mindless.com.

Once again, I apologize and request forgiveness for being offensive and condescending. It wasn't right, and I shouldn't have stooped to such levels.

Peace to all of you.