To my fellow Coloradans RE: Amendment 62

[Catch]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

If it is a good point, then why exactly are you trying to discount it?



What is it exactly you are trying to say here? What are 'regular people'? Why would police, firemen, etc. not qualify as 'regular people'? As areas grow they need more police and fire-fighters. Are you trying to say America needs less police, ambulance drivers, EMTs, and fire-fighters? Why? Because it costs money?



Again, are you seriously trying to say America should do away with police, medical, emergency, and fire services because you think it 'has gotten crazy'?

How exactly will doing away with emergency services make things less crazy? Did you think that statement through?

If you get rid of all the police and fire services, you do know you and everyone around you will be quite screwed, don't you?

Police and firefighters are paid with taxes. In fact, the police around here have started sending bills to homeowners, so they may raise their salaries. When I say "regular" I mean paid through a job not depending on government assistence.

It seems like everyone is on government assistence now, so there is no way to earn revenue from the Gross Domestic Product or sale of goods. Raising taxes won't help. There has to be more people earning money without government money or working in government jobs. Then the higher population of citizens can pay taxes; instead of, raising taxes on the already over-burderned middle-class and wealthy.

In addition, women have minds of their own and can make great contributions to society in the traditional women's role of maid, child care, on-call psychologist and chef and the newer development of helping greater numbers of people through what were once thought to be men's careers.

[Versus]

*Pulls up a chair and a bag of popcorn.*

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Catch

Police and firefighters are paid with taxes. In fact, the police around here have started sending bills to homeowners, so they may raise their salaries. When I say "regular" I mean paid through a job not depending on government assistence.

First, the word is assistance. Second, emergency services do not recieve government 'assistance', they are paid for by taxes directly, it is not 'assistance'.

How exactly do you suggest police, figher fighters, etc. be paid? Or are you saying society has no need for police, fire fighters, and other emergency services?

It seems like everyone is on government assistence now, so there is no way to earn revenue from the Gross Domestic Product or sale of goods. Raising taxes won't help. There has to be more people earning money without government money or working in government jobs. Then the higher population of citizens can pay taxes; instead of, raising taxes on the already over-burderned middle-class and wealthy.

....so...many...things...wrong...with that statement...don't know where to begin...

Again, public sector jobs are paid for by taxes. Thats why you pay taxes. Police are not paid by some private company. How the GDP factors into this is beyond me. Do you even know what the GDP is? Do you know it is not related to and can not be compared to the 'sale of goods' don't you? The sale of goods is one minuscule aspect in a much larger algorithm which makes up the GDP. To put those two terms in the same sentence makes absolutely no sense and you can't argue for or against because its just random words put together. It's like you are just pulling words from the air and slapping them in a post.

I'm taking a leap here and trying to decipher what it is you are attempting to write, which appears to be that raising taxes does not bring in new revenue to the country. I'm guessing that is something someone on the news (faux news probably) said and you are attempting to regurgitate it. It is for all intents and purposes, incorrect. You can raise the GDP by taxing the wealthy. In fact, all governments do it. Did you know until the 1960's America taxed all wealth over €200,00 at a 94% rate? Today that number is 6%. That means private individuals are able to retain billions that before were going back to the economy. Today, that money sits in accounts and does nothing to help the country. The government should raise taxes on the top 5% of earners in the country, and doing so would literally bring in BILLIONS with a 'B'. For example, taxing all income made in a year that is over 1 million US dollars at 48% would generate enough to get America out of the hole it is in, and put it on track for having a huge cash surplus for years to come. Don't take my word for it, Google it.

In addition, women have minds of their own and can make great contributions to society in the traditional women's role of maid, child care, on-call psychologist and chef and the newer development of helping greater numbers of people through what were once thought to be men's careers.

Again, what does this have to do with anything you posted previously? Womens rights? Aren't we talking about taxes here? Last time I checked, a women could be a police officer, EMT, or fire fighter if she so chooses. What are ye on about here? And if you are some how advocating womens rights, is it really appropriate to say 'in the traditional women's role of maid, child care, on-call psychologist and chef'? Is that not demeaning to women, suggesting that all women are stay-at-home moms? Following that you say 'the newer development' of women in 'what were once thought to be men's careers' - again, a bit condescending and that sort of thinking went out the window back in the 1960's. Women hold, and have held, top positions in American society for over 50 years. Some of the top Fortune 500 companies in America have women CEO's who make eight-digit salaries. Hell, a woman ran for President last election and another is looking to do it this time around. To insinuate that women are somehow a second class citizen in American society today who only can be a stay at home mom is an antiquated notion that has not been true since Truman was in office, and even then it was falling by the wayside.

[KontanKarite]

Sternn, have you not been reading what I've posted? Catch is a stupid bitch. You're making me upset.

[Catch]

CptSternn, if everyone works for the government and no one works in the private sector, who is paying the government employees?

It might as well be communism... there is no one generating revenue to be taxed and the few who are are over-taxed.

Do you see how the math is all wrong?

It is fairly obvious why we have a massive debt. Government programs have to cut and business owners figure out how to make money from the sales of products again; otherwise, we are all screwed.

Are you reading this slowly enough...? because I'm thinking it really slowly and clearly at you while typing.

[KontanKarite]

Catch, for the love of all that is holy, go read a book. Your first sentence is completely retarded.

[Versus]

The only way to save her is to take out the head before Catch makes her first kill.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Catch, for the love of all that is holy, go read a book. Your first sentence is completely retarded.

+1

Reading the above post makes you die a little inside.

[ape descendant]

Well, its voting day...

Fellow Coloradans, if we give a fuck about women lets vote no on 62, because it is retarded... really... really retarded.

[Catch]

Wooo! Voting today should be alright. I'm already to go. Should take only a little bit of time and done. We don't have issues to the like, this year.

[ape descendant]

Hooray, 62 was defeated by 70%!!!... however that means that 30% of Colorado voters, this election, are either stupid or hate women.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

This is silliness, as a woman who hasn't given birth, may have actually been pregnant to whatever term and lost the baby for whatever reason. As a man you will probably never ever know at all... and there's nothing wrong with that, because as different people we tend to have different life experiences. However I am of the opinion that it is appropriate to leave the decisions regarding a woman's body and what may or may not be growing inside her up to her and not to be left up to courts, judges and juries who know and care nothing of a woman's life, health, goals, dreams and family.


Mom's life and natural development come first... so really since its her life at stake.. it should be her choice as to how to handle the pregnancy (prenatal care, possible VBAC) or terminate it (if necessary). These personal decisions should not be made by lawyers and judges who most likely wouldn't even be acquaintances with the woman in question.

Wow I got through the first two pages of this thread, then decided I should go and play with my long awaited and much wanted babybat.

It's a myth that guys don't go through the pregnancy with their partners (and I'm talking about the guys who live with their girlfriends/fiance/wife -whatever label you chose to you).

They are there for it all, they experience the hormones that come with pregnancy - you cry, you get really fucking mad for stupid stuff, then you cry again simply because you do.

Then they get to sit there and watch the woman they love, go through labour and in some cases labour doesn't end well and c-sections are needed.

So some guys decide to sit beside their girls on the rollercoaster of having a baby, feel all the emotions etc and usually get completely ignored.

Your body is not the same after you have a child (regardless of how they come into this world).

People should have choice for safe abortions - those idiots who use it as a form of contraception (and I went to school with a girl who had 6 abortions) really should not be breeding and neither should the people who sit in shopping centres and scream at their kids.

There are women out there who long for children, who have had multiple miscarraiges and who would consider fetuses as little people.

Oh and I think you can have abortions up to 22 weeks, although the babies are perfectly formed at this age.

Of course there is a lot of social stigma attached to late term abortions, so you don't use the word abortion, you say miscarriage and everyone suddenly becomes more understanding, although then you have the social stigma of having a miscarriage.

23 weeks is the limit for babies to be born although they have a lot of health problems.

And it's taken me twenty minutes to write this because I've had to fend off toddler bat, so apologies for the 'all over the place-ness' of this post.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

It's a myth that guys don't go through the pregnancy with their partners (and I'm talking about the guys who live with their girlfriends/fiance/wife -whatever label you chose to you).

They are there for it all, they experience the hormones that come with pregnancy - you cry, you get really fucking mad for stupid stuff, then you cry again simply because you do.

Then they get to sit there and watch the woman they love, go through labour and in some cases labour doesn't end well and c-sections are needed.

So some guys decide to sit beside their girls on the rollercoaster of having a baby, feel all the emotions etc and usually get completely ignored.

It angers me that people assume men will not take responsibility.

What you said is what I was going to touch upon when I responded to

Originally Posted by Saya

But most if not all women knows whats in store for her if she does get pregnant, more intimately than a man knows. As a man you don't have to worry about it at all, most you gotta worry about is knocking some woman up and even then she's the one who's gotta carry the kid, and most likely care for it. Most women worry. I'd say most women have at least had a pregnancy scare in their lives, and have gone through measures to make sure it doesn't happen, as unreliable as they might be in her circumstances.

with:

Sorry I had to ask, but I didn't understand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that:

because men are not apprehensive about getting a woman pregnant nearly as much as a woman is about getting pregnant,

and because men will never be able to physically carry a pregnancy,

and will never have to worry about the consequences of our actions because we are not expected to provide and care for a child,

any opinion we hold concerning the matter should not carry weight?

But she never clarified, so I didn't get angry.

And it's taken me twenty minutes to write this because I've had to fend off toddler bat, so apologies for the 'all over the place-ness' of this post.

Haha, have you seen the entire thread? It's not exactly coherent.

[Fruitbat]

Versus - I'm not mad or angry, I just get frustrated when people talk about pregnancy being soley the domain of girls.

Most modern guys get right into the pregnancy and read up and ask loads more questions about everything.

They tag along to medical appointments and go all mushy when they see the ultrasound pictures/hear heartbeat et al and now there is an expectation that they will be there at the delivery (which is bloody and shitty and really messy).

Yeah, you guys get off relatively scott free with not having to carry the baby for 9 months, but then you have 9 months of putting up with a very hormonal woman and having to go out and get some weirdass food at 2am in the morning because she's desperate for it and you know you won't get any sleep until you get it because she'll moan about it or just cry.

I remember bursting out into sobbing tears driving to work one day because I heard one of those heartwarming stories on the radio. I got to work, tried to tell my boss something work related and then burst into tears again because I thought about the story again.

So I really hope I've made everyone think about contraception - or else you can just watch some of the birth videos on you tube or better yet, look up four degree tears - that will have you crossing your legs.

[Saya]

Its not that men can't be active partners in a pregnancy, no, but they're not the ones having their stomaches ripped open or, you know, dying if it comes to that. Its still YOUR body and no one elses. At the end of the day, its the woman's body that goes through hell, and its awesome and amazing when men really help out in any way they can, but they can also run away, and they never have to worry about their bodies not being their own. Ask my mom, haha.

[Fruitbat]

Saya I had a friend who was in hospital with her 6th baby and her husband walked in and said "I can't do it" and left her. Not all guys will run.

Guys, on the surface, do get it relatively easy but then I know a lot of guys who have had to step up, taking care of their girls and babies when the women fall in a heap after the birth of a baby.

There are some good guys out there.

[Saya]

I'm not saying there's not, but again, its still the woman's body. You can't run from your own uterus. You can't put the fetus in a box and make the husband carry it around if he wants it so bad. When its your body being torn apart (and I have seen live births and thats what it looked like to me >.< fascinating, yet I'll never do it) it should be up to you and your doctor whether you want that to happen or not.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Saya

I'm not saying there's not, but again, its still the woman's body. You can't run from your own uterus. You can't put the fetus in a box and make the husband carry it around if he wants it so bad. When its your body being torn apart (and I have seen live births and thats what it looked like to me >.< fascinating, yet I'll never do it) it should be up to you and your doctor whether you want that to happen or not.

Agree, but the guys should also be allowed to voice his opinion on the subject, assuming you are in a healthy relationship.

What the women does with the guys opinion is up to her and whatever decision she makes will be the right one for her at that time.

[Versus]

and I have seen live births and thats what it looked like to me >.< fascinating, yet I'll never do it

This reminded me of when a doctor was explaining Photorefractive keratectomy to me. I was fascinated, but at the same time unnerved after learning the specifics of the surgery.

"You're going to what...?"

"Scrub your eyes with an electric toothbrush that has metal bristles, then melt them with a laser."

Have you ever seen "Anatomy for Beginners" on youtube? It's a similar feeling.

Anyway, because I wouldn't leave a woman to fend for herself, I try to be really careful about contraception. It's actually been really bad for me in some instances because I would worry so much about it during sex that sometimes I either couldn't finish or couldn't keep it up. It really annoys me when people say I don't have to worry about pregnancy.

Regardless, what a woman wants to do is what a woman should do. As with everything else, advice has to be put in it's place. Whether from the father or the doctor, it's just advice.

[Saya]

I think everyone will have more peace of mind when they get that damn male birth control pill on the market.

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Agree, but the guys should also be allowed to voice his opinion on the subject, assuming you are in a healthy relationship.

What the women does with the guys opinion is up to her and whatever decision she makes will be the right one for her at that time.

Assuming you're in a healthy relationship? Of course, I would think it for the best to allow your partner to voice his opinion, but because he's your partner, he shouldn't have a say just because he's the father, if that makes sense.

[Fruitbat]

Versus - that's a ton of pressure on you, maybe you should be take an active interest in the billings method of contraception as well - get to know all the nitty gritty about contraception, might make you feel a lot less pressured about the whole thing.

I remember listening to the orthepaedic surgeon telling us how they do hip replacements (well we get a hammer and chisel and we smash the crap out of the hip joint....) WTF!!

Saya Yeah agree.

[Versus]

Past tense, Fruitbat. I was new to sex at the time frame I was speaking of.

And uh... fuck hip replacements. Seriously.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Versus

Past tense, Fruitbat. I was new to sex at the time frame I was speaking of.

And uh... fuck hip replacements. Seriously.

Story of my life - I'm so yesterday, I'm last week..

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Wow I got through the first two pages of this thread, then decided I should go and play with my long awaited and much wanted babybat.

It's a myth that guys don't go through the pregnancy with their partners (and I'm talking about the guys who live with their girlfriends/fiance/wife -whatever label you chose to you).

They are there for it all, they experience the hormones that come with pregnancy - you cry, you get really fucking mad for stupid stuff, then you cry again simply because you do.

Then they get to sit there and watch the woman they love, go through labour and in some cases labour doesn't end well and c-sections are needed.

So some guys decide to sit beside their girls on the rollercoaster of having a baby, feel all the emotions etc and usually get completely ignored.

Your body is not the same after you have a child (regardless of how they come into this world).

People should have choice for safe abortions - those idiots who use it as a form of contraception (and I went to school with a girl who had 6 abortions) really should not be breeding and neither should the people who sit in shopping centres and scream at their kids.

There are women out there who long for children, who have had multiple miscarraiges and who would consider fetuses as little people.

Oh and I think you can have abortions up to 22 weeks, although the babies are perfectly formed at this age.

Of course there is a lot of social stigma attached to late term abortions, so you don't use the word abortion, you say miscarriage and everyone suddenly becomes more understanding, although then you have the social stigma of having a miscarriage.

23 weeks is the limit for babies to be born although they have a lot of health problems.

And it's taken me twenty minutes to write this because I've had to fend off toddler bat, so apologies for the 'all over the place-ness' of this post.

I'm not saying that the partners of pregnant women have nothing to do with the process. I am saying that the person who's body everything is happening in should get the last word in how her pregnancy is handled.

I know there are women who long for children, I know that miscarriages can really suck and I understand that there's a lot of weird social stigma that surrounds miscarriages accidental or deliberate.

I have no quarrel with people who wish to think of their fetuses as little people, for they are potential people developing and growing. However, I do draw the line at giving them legal person-hood with full rights same as their mother, because they occupy her body, and they can't both be considered legal persons fully under the law, as it is not always possible to give an embryo, blastocyst or fetus due process of law with out treating the mother like a baby storage facility, especially if custody of the developing person is given to some attorney, judge or hospital.

There are forms of contraception that are pretty much abortions. As they prevent a blastocyst from implanting into the uterine wall, preventing conception but not preventing fertilization in the first place, however, I don't see (and don't want to) a huge clamor to have these forms of birth control outlawed and I don't hear about women being stigmatized and scorned for using them.

My whole point being, that there is so much to this whole situation, there are so many different circumstances for different people, that one standard would just not cover. That is why I think choice must be protected, because at the end of the day, it remains that each person must live with their own decision whether or not I agree with it.

[KontanKarite]

You know, abortions should just be unlimited. I can understand the stigma of doing it late, but basically, it should be a viable means of contraception.

Sure, you may have some chick running around getting 6 abortions, but thankfully, YOU'RE not doing that... right?