Why "no kill" and 90% of what P.E.T.A says is bullshit

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Questions. And please, please, do not snap or snarl as some vegans have done, I genuinely do not know what people want to do in these cases.

I'll try answering some, but please keep in mind not every vegan/animal rights advocate agrees about everything, I'm sure there are really nutcases out there who want to kill all domesticated animals and I'm sure there's vegans who really like zoos and spent thousands of dollars to get a pure-bred dog, its not a completely united movement and debates within it exists.

What do we do about pets? If we are not to keep them in a form of slavery, does that mean we are not to keep pets? Not to train them to respond to our commands? I know you 'train' children to use the bathroom and not smash the furniture, but a dog would be trained and kept in that state all of its life. No more pets? No more domesticated animals? What do you do with the existing ones?

I don't have a problem with people keeping pets, I have a cat and a mouse and I'm thinking about adopting a rabbit from a shelter in the near future. The problem however is with breeding (and I don't think I really need to mention things like puppy mills, do I?), there are millions of homeless animals and yet people will dish out a lot of money just to get a pure-bred dog or cat, I have a friend who wants to pay a thousand dollars to get a chihuahua, for example. I know she'll be good to it but its sad how many animals have no homes and yet we still continue to breed more of them just because we want one that pleases our aesthetic tastes. Another example would be rabbits, I read once that 80% of rabbits are homeless at least once in their lives, and I believe that, I know so many people who get rabbits because they think they'll be cute and then give them away a month later because they smell and get aggressive, and they don't wanna fork out the money to get them neutered/spayed.

Now if we end breeding, I doubt that will be the end of companion animals. Unless there is a law that every single dog and cat and rabbit has to get fixed, we're always going to have them, as animals tend to fuck on their own time without our help. What we should do however is stop breeding them ourselves, and give the millions of homeless animals a chance to have a loving home. So no, I do not want to put down all animals and I love having a cat around, but I don't want to pay someone to knock up their Persian just so I can get a fluffy cat, I won't buy from a breeder or a pet store, I'll always get my animals from shelters from now on.

And with training, I can't see a problem with it as it is something similar you do with a child, right? Its when it stops being training and becomes abuse is where we must draw the line.

What do we do about, say, cats? They've been positively deadly everywhere they've been introduced. How can you limit their numbers without culling them? What about spaying them, is that regarded as unethical?

I haven't heard anyone advocate sending cats out into the wild, and you're right they can cause devastation to wildlife when they do go feral. Spaying and neutering is ethical, they live longer lives and it protects them from deadly STIs that are common amongst cats.

If an animal is injured, do you take it in and give it medical care? People don't do that for a lot of humans, particularly those lacking in insurance, so what of animals in such cases?

You mean like if my cat gets sick? Of course I'll take it to the vet, we knew about associated costs before we got the cat. If I just found the cat at the side of the road? I'd take her to the SPCA, if the cat is able to make it they do foot the bills (honestly I'd help out with it myself if I can), if not they do hire local vets to euthanize animals that would otherwise have a painful death. If its a deer, lets say? We actually have a nature park here that takes in injured wildlife. Last time I was there amongst their animals there was an orphan moose calf and a one-winged snowy owl.

How do you keep rats and mice out of houses? Traps? Poison? Humane traps are not very effective, as a pest can usually get back in very easily. All it takes is leaving your door open for five minutes.

How do you deal with pest animals eating the crops you're trying to grow to feed yourselves? What do you do if the crops are damaged by deer or rodents? When it's down to your food or theirs?

My mom had a problem with mice and squirrels, poison wasn't working at all, so what she did was she got this sonar thingy (I can't remember the name of it), it sends out a frequency that only rodents can hear and they can't stand it, so they stay out of the house. You can get ones also so you can occasionally adjust the frequency, as eventually they may get used to the sound and come back.

As for crops I'm not sure how to answer you to be honest, I have heard of repellents working very well but I would imagine it would differ from species to species. Always I would advocate taking every other measure before resorting to killing, but if it comes down to you starving to death or killing some field mice, well, sadly, the mice must go.

What of zoos? In many cases, they're all that stand between rare animals and extinction. Under what circumstances can you keep animals in captivity? What can you do about the ones unable to fend for themselves in the wild? How do you rescue falling populations of indigenous species when an imported species is becoming dominant (see the Red/Grey/Black squirrel problem, or, again, cats)?

I get what you're saying and I used to think about zoos that way too, here we don't have a zoo but we have a nature park that basically takes in injured wild life, and its actually set in the woods in their natural habitat, a lot of the animals don't even have cages. That sort of thing I really respect. Commercial zoos however usually don't have that kind of space or realism for the animal, and in some cases captivity is detrimental to the animal's health and well being. Its actually a big and hotly debated topic amongst those for animal rights, yes we would like to see animals protected and have conservation efforts but a lot of zoos aren't up to standard, so to speak, a lot of animals have difficulty breeding in captivity, and animals shouldn't be taken from the wild just to be put on display for some snotty kids. Here's a critique of zoos just for your curiosity:
http://www.wildlife.org.nz/zoocheck/myths.htm, I'll also have a look for an article I read a while ago that said the life expectancy for captive elephants is significantly less than that of wild elephants.

Like you may tell I'm a fan of our nature park, and if conservation is deemed necessary thats how it should be done, in a park or sanctuary in an animal's natural habitat, not in a cage.

As for the imported species, well, prevention is key. like with crop pests I do believe that killing should be the last resort, and its hard to feel bad for potential animals not being born (lets say the species dwindles/dies out) and give them more right over animals that are alive right now (the introduced species). Its actually another heated topic, by no means is everyone united on that sort of thing, I'm just giving my own two cents.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Questions. And please, please, do not snap or snarl as some vegans have done, I genuinely do not know what people want to do in these cases.

What do we do about pets? If we are not to keep them in a form of slavery, does that mean we are not to keep pets? Not to train them to respond to our commands? I know you 'train' children to use the bathroom and not smash the furniture, but a dog would be trained and kept in that state all of its life. No more pets? No more domesticated animals? What do you do with the existing ones?

What do we do about, say, cats? They've been positively deadly everywhere they've been introduced. How can you limit their numbers without culling them? What about spaying them, is that regarded as unethical?

If an animal is injured, do you take it in and give it medical care? People don't do that for a lot of humans, particularly those lacking in insurance, so what of animals in such cases?

How do you keep rats and mice out of houses? Traps? Poison? Humane traps are not very effective, as a pest can usually get back in very easily. All it takes is leaving your door open for five minutes.

How do you deal with pest animals eating the crops you're trying to grow to feed yourselves? What do you do if the crops are damaged by deer or rodents? When it's down to your food or theirs?

What of zoos? In many cases, they're all that stand between rare animals and extinction. Under what circumstances can you keep animals in captivity? What can you do about the ones unable to fend for themselves in the wild? How do you rescue falling populations of indigenous species when an imported species is becoming dominant (see the Red/Grey/Black squirrel problem, or, again, cats)?

These people don't think that far in advance, you're giving them too much credit. Seriously, they have absolutely no plan for anything you mentioned. Go to PETA's website. Check out their talking points about setting pets, chickens, everything "free". Now look through the site and see if you can find the "how" part. And I don't mean "how" as in protests, political action etc. I mean "how" as in what the fuck do you plan to do with all these "free" animals.

[PortraitOfSanity]

So Saya, basically what you're saying is "let the animals die free, rather than live in captiviity"? Because that's what your argument amounts to.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

It's amazing that you wrote so much, and said nothing at all.

Your entire post is rhetoric, and the same rhetoric that's been repeated over, and over and beaten to death. I know what the animal liberation groups' talking points are. Believe me, I know, they're written on signs outside my work at least once a week, I can't possibly NOT know them. Don't assume I'm ignorant of your supposed morals.

The goals you subscribe to are unrealistic, and there is no rational way to even think that animals will be liberated to the extent that you describe. Instead, the only solution is to improve the situation of animals as best as we realistically can.

Some day I hope that your kind comes around and realizes that throwing tomatoes at people in fur coats and picketing KFC accomplishes nothing at all.

If you already knew them then why did you say "Its like they have no plan whatsoever if the world were to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be vegan?" Like I said, where's your plan to continue sustaining meat consumption while stopping global warming and the destruction of the rainforests, huh, huh? Can you justify to me why an animal has to be born into exploitation and suffering all for your lust for a juicy hamburger? Why the sum of an animal's life is worth a two dollar burger that you'll shit out in an hour?

It may never come to fruition, but that does not mean that I cannot make my life an example. "Just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you should do nothing," "Be the change you want in the world," and all that jazz. People once thought the day would never come where gays could marry or the president of the united states would be black, but here we are. History has shown many paradigm shifts, its not so unrealistic to think that maybe one day the world will wake up from its insanity, look at what we're doing and say "This is wrong." Until then, I will not take part in the cruelty.

And really, where did I ever advocate throwing tomatoes or picketing KFC? I don't like PeTA's attention whoring tactics that get us nowhere, I've said that from the beginning.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

So Saya, basically what you're saying is "let the animals die free, rather than live in captiviity"? Because that's what your argument amounts to.

Where did I say that? I never once advocated sending animals feral.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

These people don't think that far in advance, you're giving them too much credit. Seriously, they have absolutely no plan for anything you mentioned. Go to PETA's website. Check out their talking points about setting pets, chickens, everything "free". Now look through the site and see if you can find the "how" part. And I don't mean "how" as in protests, political action etc. I mean "how" as in what the fuck do you plan to do with all these "free" animals.

PeTA does not represent all animal rights groups, and I've already explained that unless you think we're going to send animals that aren't even born yet (and ideally never will be) free, there's no issue of sending domesticated animals feral.

[isobel black]

I am in no way an animal rights activist, I'm not even a vegetarian, but I do feel that, intrinsically, an animal's life is every bit as valuable as a human's.

Of course, in certain situations, I would choose the death of an animal over the death of a person, thus practically giving more value to a human life. But I would similarly choose the death of an insect over the death of a (non-human) mammal, reptile or bird, for reasons of longevity and sentience. That doesn't change the fact that I feel that in principle, the right to live, and to not suffer, is the same for animals and humans.

I'm not sure if I would call the keeping of pets and livestock slavery. Of course, we are inhibiting their freedom, but we also have to take into account that these animals have been domesticated over a long period of time. I feel as long as they are not mistreated, it is ok for us to keep pets, and even livestock.

Of course I recognize that most livestock animals, and a lot of animals in the pet trade are exploited, and made to suffer unnecesarrily to increase profit. Like (gratuitous) animal testing, I feel this is wrong, and should be abolished.

Zoo's and medical testing mess up my personal ethics. In principle I feel that zoo animals are exploited, but I also recognize that zoo's do play an important part in combatting extinction. Also, most hypocritically, I like going to the zoo
Medical testing on animals is definitely exploitation, and making animals suffer for our own benefit. But the fact remains, that drugs and treatments have to be tested somehow.

[Delkaetre]

I wasn't saying that people will send cats out into the wild, but cats get out. It's one of those unavoidable effects, much like rats getting off the boats and destroying local wildlife when Britain was busy sending out settlers. Cats can breed quite quickly, not everyone spays their animals, and they do produce quite a staggering feral population. It's expensive and not always practical to try and bring them in and rehome them, especially feral adults. Dromore in Northern Ireland, where I grew up, had a remarkable feral population due mostly to a woman who lived down my road and refused to get her cats fixed. They bred, grew up mostly wild, and bred again. As a result, not many small mammals or birds in the area compared to the village we moved to when I was older. Both areas of crop and pasture land, balanced mostly between cattle, sheep, and grain crops. Relatively lush, quite rural, similar or identical climate. The cats made a lot of difference.
How do you control a pest animal like that, when it stops being a pet and becomes a problem? Same for rats, same for feral dogs in places like the Middle East.

[KontanKarite]

The slaughter house next door, which is quite smelly, is fairly humane if you ask me. Apparently, the pigs get this electric jolt in a certain part of their body that simply shuts their body off. Essentially, a quick jolt, and they're dead.

They do it this way because they use the whole pig. Nothing is thrown away.

Only problem is that it smells like all hell.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

I am in no way an animal rights activist, I'm not even a vegetarian, but I do feel that, intrinsically, an animal's life is every bit as valuable as a human's.

Of course, in certain situations, I would choose the death of an animal over the death of a person, thus practically giving more value to a human life. But I would similarly choose the death of an insect over the death of a (non-human) mammal, reptile or bird, for reasons of longevity and sentience. That doesn't change the fact that I feel that in principle, the right to live, and to not suffer, is the same for animals and humans.

I'm not sure if I would call the keeping of pets and livestock slavery. Of course, we are inhibiting their freedom, but we also have to take into account that these animals have been domesticated over a long period of time. I feel as long as they are not mistreated, it is ok for us to keep pets, and even livestock.

So you think an animal has just as much right to live and not to suffer as a human, but you're hunky dory with breeding animals beyond our capacity to sustain them, raising them to a fraction of their life expectancy and then killing them because we think they are tasty?

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

I wasn't saying that people will send cats out into the wild, but cats get out. It's one of those unavoidable effects, much like rats getting off the boats and destroying local wildlife when Britain was busy sending out settlers. Cats can breed quite quickly, not everyone spays their animals, and they do produce quite a staggering feral population. It's expensive and not always practical to try and bring them in and rehome them, especially feral adults. Dromore in Northern Ireland, where I grew up, had a remarkable feral population due mostly to a woman who lived down my road and refused to get her cats fixed. They bred, grew up mostly wild, and bred again. As a result, not many small mammals or birds in the area compared to the village we moved to when I was older. Both areas of crop and pasture land, balanced mostly between cattle, sheep, and grain crops. Relatively lush, quite rural, similar or identical climate. The cats made a lot of difference.
How do you control a pest animal like that, when it stops being a pet and becomes a problem? Same for rats, same for feral dogs in places like the Middle East.

It is expensive to capture, spay/neuter cats and rehome them, but its due to human error that they were introduced to an ecosystem and altered it, therefore it is the responsibility of people to fix the problem, for the animals that have died and for the cats. The cats are doing what they can out of a bad situation (having a crazy lady for a guardian) while the wildlife suffers, but since they got introduced its a matter of how much we'd like to play God with an ecosystem, kill all the cats so we can watch the pretty birds, leave the pretty bird and cats to deal it out themselves and risk losing the pretty birds, or catch the cats and try to stop the problem we've created. Once again this is a hotly debated point, thats just my two cents.

The slaughter house next door, which is quite smelly, is fairly humane if you ask me. Apparently, the pigs get this electric jolt in a certain part of their body that simply shuts their body off. Essentially, a quick jolt, and they're dead.

They do it this way because they use the whole pig. Nothing is thrown away.

Only problem is that it smells like all hell.

I once saw a movie where this guy would kill people by rigging up objects to an electrical current, so when they touch the object they just plop down dead. Nothing wrong with it, was pretty humane. And the best thing about that was that the people were free ranged.

[KontanKarite]

Well it is a slaughterhouse and so goes that the pigs aren't exactly free range I don't think.

[Delkaetre]

I wouldn't mind human, actually.
But then again, I have odd plans for my remains after I die (bones carved like netsuke or scrimscraw, given to friends as trinkets and jewellery. Skin tanned and used as book bindings), and I fully support human cloning provided we can prevent the development of the functioning brain- effectively, a respiring humanoid but with no sentience. Useful for organ transplants, medical testing, animal friendly, and quite possibly tasty meat.

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by Saya

So you think an animal has just as much right to live and not to suffer as a human, but you're hunky dory with breeding animals beyond our capacity to sustain them, raising them to a fraction of their life expectancy and then killing them because we think they are tasty?

Er, I didn't exactly say that. Somehow you managed to misinterpret my post completely.

Originally Posted by isobel black

Of course I recognize that most livestock animals, and a lot of animals in the pet trade are exploited, and made to suffer unnecesarrily to increase profit. Like (gratuitous) animal testing, I feel this is wrong, and should be abolished

Maybe I should have been more explicit, but I did state that I feel it is wrong for animals to be made to suffer unnecesarrily. What I meant by that is that I am opposed to the mass production and torturous practices in the meat industry, as well as animal testing. That is why I choose not to facilitate these unethical industries by consuming their products.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

I am in no way an animal rights activist, I'm not even a vegetarian, but I do feel that, intrinsically, an animal's life is every bit as valuable as a human's.

You said it there, that you feel that an animal's life is every bit as valuable as a humans, but are you to tell me that you are a vegan, because you did say "not vegetarian" which would leave me to believe that you do eat meat and therefore support an industry which kills animals to serve the human's desire for meat.

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by isobel black

That is why I choose not to facilitate these unethical industries by consuming their products.

Still not explicit enough for you? Right, I'll have another go at making you understand. I'm not a vegetarian, nor a vegan. I do eat meat, about twice a week, and only free range.

While I believe an animal's life is equally valuable to a human's life in principle, I also believe it is not intrinsically wrong for us to kill animals for food. We are omnivores after all, and happen to be on the top of the food chain. The problem is that the process has come to be commercialized and industrialized.

Btw I realize now this probably sounds a little contradictory. While I have always held the belief that animals' lives are equally valuable, I have only been plagued by my conscience about industrial meat and animal tested cosmetics for a little over 6 months.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

Still not explicit enough for you? Right, I'll have another go at making you understand. I'm not a vegetarian, nor a vegan. I do eat meat, about twice a week, and only free range.

While I believe an animal's life is equally valuable to a human's life in principle, I also believe it is not intrinsically wrong for us to kill animals for food. We are omnivores after all, and happen to be on the top of the food chain. The problem is that the process has come to be commercialized and industrialized.

Btw I realize now this probably sounds a little contradictory. While I have always held the belief that animals' lives are equally valuable, I have only been plagued by my conscience about industrial meat and animal tested cosmetics for a little over 6 months.

So, an animal that has a little more space to run around in than an animal born into a factory farm deserves to die to feed you just because you feel the need to reinforce your position "on top of the food chain"? Doesn't sound like you consider them equal in any way.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Being omnivorous does not entail that we need BOTH plants and meat to survive. It merely means we can derive nutrition out of either in case we have a shortage of one.
However eating meat when we could be eating healthier foods is like breathing second-hand smoke when you can perfectly go out for fresh air - we can do it, but why the fuck would we?

[Delkaetre]

I find most pubs smell better with the second hand smoke in them, and it helps obscure the unknown substances on the floor that keep sticking to my boots.
I can certainly go to places with cleaner floors and tables, but I like the atmosphere in my old haunts. Familiar, comforting, and unhealthy. Meat is similar for most- we know it, we like the flavour, and it's an indulgence. We may not require it, but we prefer it. And while the option is still there, there will be many who'll take it.

Not that I get to eat meat much, I'm bloody poor and veg soup is much cheaper than meat-based anything that's not horribly processed.

[KontanKarite]

When I go hiking for long periods of time... I need some source of animal protein.

I've never heard of a Vegan Appalachian Trail through hiker, but if there ever was one, it would indeed be historic.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

When I go hiking for long periods of time... I need some source of animal protein.

I've never heard of a Vegan Appalachian Trail through hiker, but if there ever was one, it would indeed be historic.

There's been at least one, according to the adverts for Tofurky!

http://www.tofurky.com/products/jurky.htm

And the only difference between animal and vegetable protein is all animal proteins have all amino acids while only soy and quinoa and a few others (can't remember) have complete, otherwise it needs to be combined. However seitan is awesome for protein shakes I'm told.

[KontanKarite]

That IS impressive. I tip my hat to that one.

*checks for the prices*

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by Saya

So, an animal that has a little more space to run around in than an animal born into a factory farm deserves to die to feed you just because you feel the need to reinforce your position "on top of the food chain"? Doesn't sound like you consider them equal in any way.

It seems you are determined to find fault with anything I say. I'm not asking
for a pat on the back, I do what I do out of a personal sense of ethics.

I have admitted that it is contradictory in a way, but I happen to believe it is not wrong for humans to kill animals for food.
Is it because I want to soothe my conscience because I am too weak to go vegetarian or vegan altogether? Quite possibly.
I just feel that, as a responsible consumer, I do not have to deny myself the pleasure of a varied diet.

That doesn't change the fact that I feel we do not have the right to abuse and kill animals for profit, sport, entertainment or because they bother us in and around the house.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

It seems you are determined to find fault with anything I say. I'm not asking
for a pat on the back, I do what I do out of a personal sense of ethics.

I have admitted that it is contradictory in a way, but I happen to believe it is not wrong for humans to kill animals for food.
Is it because I want to soothe my conscience because I am too weak to go vegetarian or vegan altogether? Quite possibly.
I just feel that, as a responsible consumer, I do not have to deny myself the pleasure of a varied diet.

That doesn't change the fact that I feel we do not have the right to abuse and kill animals for profit, sport, entertainment or because they bother us in and around the house.

We don't have the right to abuse and kill for profit or entertainment, but you say for the "pleasure of a varied diet" you will continue giving your money to those who kill for profit, and cause the demand and death of animals just for the "pleasure" of having a "varied diet" (which is ridiculous, there are many many other foods besides meat).

I'm just pointing out your inconsistency and hypocrisy, as you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking you're doing animals a favour by demanding the deaths of those "free range happy meat" animals just so you can have the pleasure of eating their flesh.

[isobel black]

Originally Posted by Saya

We don't have the right to abuse and kill for profit or entertainment, but you say for the "pleasure of a varied diet" you will continue giving your money to those who kill for profit, and cause the demand and death of animals just for the "pleasure" of having a "varied diet" (which is ridiculous, there are many many other foods besides meat).

I'm just pointing out your inconsistency and hypocrisy, as you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking you're doing animals a favour by demanding the deaths of those "free range happy meat" animals just so you can have the pleasure of eating their flesh.

You point out nothing I haven't already admitted to myself. I just don't understand why you insist on exagerating my illustration of my personal beliefs to the point of putting words into my mouth to fit your zealous rethoric.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by isobel black

You point out nothing I haven't already admitted to myself. I just don't understand why you insist on exagerating my illustration of my personal beliefs to the point of putting words into my mouth to fit your zealous rethoric.

You're the one who insists that inherently animals and people are equal, but then eat their flesh for your own pleasure and to reinforce your status of "top of the food chain." You're the one who believes that you have the inherent right to rob an animal of its family, freedom and life for the sake of a "varied" diet. I'm not the one to accuse of being zealous, as I have yet to do more but debate my views, but you're the one forcing your "inherent right" on animals that cannot defend themselves against you.