The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by Saya

Just a heads up that Gender Trouble is hard to read. The idea is wonderful! Just wasn't written accessibly.

For more up to date reading, Jessica Valenti is really good, I liked The Purity Myth, which is TOTALLY RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD because its about the idealization of virginity and waiting until marriage, and abstinence only education, and how harmful it actually is, she was one of the editors of Yes Means Yes: Visions Of Female Sexual Power And A World Without **** which is one of my favourite books, and I haven't read it yet but Full Frontal Feminism looks really good as an intro book. There are other good writers, but most other books I read are on more specific issues, and she writes in such a way that you don't need to know a whole lot about feminism to follow along. Not that I'd think you mind but other people are a bit put off by her humour and her swearing. She's the founder of the website Feministing, which does champion LGBTQ issues and I learned a lot about trans politics from there.

Backlash was published in the very early nineties before "The Third Wave" lifted off, so it very much focuses on the eighties, and she didn't know that relief was around the corner, but it was still really good and I hope she or someone else writes a similar book about the 2000s.

Does The Purity Myth delve into the 'virgin/whore' dichotomy?

Have you read A Million Little Mermaids from this site? Very interesting interpretations of the meanings of some fairytales and how damaging they can be. Personally, I feel Disney is to blame for a lot of this shit, too. Which is why I glower at my husband every time he mentions wanting to take the kids to Disneyland/World.

[Saya]

I haven't read it! I'll have a read later, I'm tired and hyped up on caffeine right now XD

I kind of think Disney is being more accommodating to criticisms, I actually did enjoy The Princess And The Frog and they seemed to try really hard to have the couple be equals, the girl saves the boy most of the time, etc etc. And I think Gargoyles was my favourite cartoon as a kid and I still watch it from time to time XD Elisa was awesome!

I also have to say I fucking love Beauty And The Beast. And there's valid criticisms of it! And I'd love to go to Disneyland someday. Now I feel like a bad feminist XD

I do hate the Disney Princess franchise, though. And oh my god was Beauty And The Beast: The Enchanted Christmas HORRIFIC. It doesn't have the backlash excuse, that was in 1997! I can't imagine what the other Princess direct to video shit was like.

[Saya]

Alright, just read the whole thing. I have read the original story when I was a kid, but I never picked up on the religious undertones (cue Spock's "fascinating."). I'm trying to find an article about transgendered girls and mermaids that I read ages ago, it was an awesome piece on how the mermaid story can be re-appropriated as a trans narrative.

As far as the movie, I'm embarrassed to say I was obsessed with it when I was a kid, but what killed it for me was when I watched Nostalgia Chick's "Top 11 Villainesses" video, and when she got to Ursula she said "I hate this movie, I really do. I sold my soul for a vagina, and a man I don't know!" I haven't been able to watch it since XD

I wonder if we could actually compare the original Little Mermaid to Twilight? Bella is obsessed like the mermaid was, she lets him boss her around, accepts his derision of her, is abandoned by him at one point (and contemplates suicide), and wants to be part of his world, and wants to be a vampire so they can be together (and unlike the mermaid wanting an immortal soul, Bella gains immortality of the body). Her becoming a vampire causes her great agony, after being ripped apart by her vampire child, as the mermaid's tail was ripped in half. But the mermaid didn't gain from her love, it was unhealthy, caused her nothing but agony, and cost her her life in the end. While her selfless devotion makes her into a Madonna figure, you could interpet it as that she didn't really need the man to give her a soul, it isn't romantic, and it was her goodness that earned her salvation, her worth as a person. With Bella the sacrificial and obsessive love earns her subordination, and Edward gives her immortality.

[Grausamkeit]

I was obsessed with the Disney crap as a kid, too. It's nothing to be ashamed of because when you're young you don't realize the programming that you are recieving from your parent/s and the media.

It is when we shrug after having the bad things pointed out and say "But that's how *I* was raised and I turned out fine" and then proceed to raise our children with the same malarky that we go wrong, in my opinion.

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by Saya

Alright, just read the whole thing. I have read the original story when I was a kid, but I never picked up on the religious undertones (cue Spock's "fascinating."). I'm trying to find an article about transgendered girls and mermaids that I read ages ago, it was an awesome piece on how the mermaid story can be re-appropriated as a trans narrative.

As far as the movie, I'm embarrassed to say I was obsessed with it when I was a kid, but what killed it for me was when I watched Nostalgia Chick's "Top 11 Villainesses" video, and when she got to Ursula she said "I hate this movie, I really do. I sold my soul for a vagina, and a man I don't know!" I haven't been able to watch it since XD

I wonder if we could actually compare the original Little Mermaid to Twilight? Bella is obsessed like the mermaid was, she lets him boss her around, accepts his derision of her, is abandoned by him at one point (and contemplates suicide), and wants to be part of his world, and wants to be a vampire so they can be together (and unlike the mermaid wanting an immortal soul, Bella gains immortality of the body). Her becoming a vampire causes her great agony, after being ripped apart by her vampire child, as the mermaid's tail was ripped in half. But the mermaid didn't gain from her love, it was unhealthy, caused her nothing but agony, and cost her her life in the end. While her selfless devotion makes her into a Madonna figure, you could interpet it as that she didn't really need the man to give her a soul, it isn't romantic, and it was her goodness that earned her salvation, her worth as a person. With Bella the sacrificial and obsessive love earns her subordination, and Edward gives her immortality.

In a way yes but if you thing about the way they were brought up, Ariel wants to live a different non fishy life because its not for her. Also she want to break the barrier between her and Eric which is the fact she has a tail. Bella has no social life and doesn't intend/think about changing it and the only barrier she has is eternity. In shorter words, one is forced and the other is not.

[mariashark]

Originally Posted by Saya

I wouldn't go so far to say this will increase the number of abusive relationships, but its sick that this is popular, acceptable for tweens apparently, and perpetuated by women.

That aside, personally I couldn't care less, I really think people are just trying to find something to tear her apart for. There are worst books, but no one cares, worst things on t.v, no one cares, cartoons teaching ridiculous things to children, no one gives a shit. But, some chick wrights a crappy book that becomes popular for reasons no one really understands, everyone gets an instant knot in their under garments.

___________________________
Watch The Ides of March Online for Free

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

Very interesting interpretations of the meanings of some fairytales and how damaging they can be.

I never know how to feel about fairytales. I mean, I love them. But I often enjoy the witches and faeries and wolves and monsters more than the pretty pretty princesses. I wonder if that makes me more or less damaged than the Bella Swans of the world.

Originally Posted by Saya

I also have to say I fucking love Beauty And The Beast. And there's valid criticisms of it! And I'd love to go to Disneyland someday. Now I feel like a bad feminist XD

I also really like Beauty and the Beast. Maybe because Belle is a nerd. But whatever... I love it even while I cringe at the my boyfriend-is-mean-and-sort-of-violent-but-if-I-cover-for-him-eventually-he'll-love-me storyline. Even then. Love it. I also really like Sleeping Beauty.

But then, Disneyland is one of my favorite places in the world (I grew up in Disneyland!), so maybe I'm just a bad feminist to begin with?

[Grausamkeit]

How does one 'wright' a book?

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

How does one 'wright' a book?

...glue on wings, throw off cliff?

That's right. I made an aviation joke.

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by wolf moon

...glue on wings, throw off cliff?

That's right. I made an aviation joke.

I like it. *hee-hee*

[Saya]

Originally Posted by wolf moon

I never know how to feel about fairytales. I mean, I love them. But I often enjoy the witches and faeries and wolves and monsters more than the pretty pretty princesses. I wonder if that makes me more or less damaged than the Bella Swans of the world.



I also really like Beauty and the Beast. Maybe because Belle is a nerd. But whatever... I love it even while I cringe at the my boyfriend-is-mean-and-sort-of-violent-but-if-I-cover-for-him-eventually-he'll-love-me storyline. Even then. Love it. I also really like Sleeping Beauty.

But then, Disneyland is one of my favorite places in the world (I grew up in Disneyland!), so maybe I'm just a bad feminist to begin with?

You should look up Nostalgia Chick, she makes a pretty good point about Belle. She doesn't put up with the Beast's shit at all, he's trying to win her over and changes for her, and only then does she soften up. The "I can change him!" thing was part of the midquel thing that was An Enchanted Christmas or whatever it was called.

We watched Sleeping Beauty recently, and bad feminist thing: Aurora doesn't have a line at all after she finds out she's a princess. Its a silencing, imprisoning thing. Good feminist thing: The princess and the prince are just plot devices, the movie is really about the three fairies and they are the heroes who do EVERYTHING, and the most developed characters.

I get to write a paper on feminism and Disney, I can't wait to get started on this.

[Sir Canvas Corpsey]

Children, there can be worse books, but only one book can be the worst. Fuck y'all I'm a banana.

[Grausamkeit]

But you're not a banana phone....

[Sir Canvas Corpsey]

Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Ring Bananamissile
Boobadoobadoop

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Saya

You should look up Nostalgia Chick, she makes a pretty good point about Belle. She doesn't put up with the Beast's shit at all, he's trying to win her over and changes for her, and only then does she soften up. The "I can change him!" thing was part of the midquel thing that was An Enchanted Christmas or whatever it was called.

We watched Sleeping Beauty recently, and bad feminist thing: Aurora doesn't have a line at all after she finds out she's a princess. Its a silencing, imprisoning thing. Good feminist thing: The princess and the prince are just plot devices, the movie is really about the three fairies and they are the heroes who do EVERYTHING, and the most developed characters.

I get to write a paper on feminism and Disney, I can't wait to get started on this.

I haven't watched any of her videos in a few years (does she still make new ones?), but I love the Nostalgia Chick. Labyrinth and Teen Witch are my favorites... possibly because I still actively enjoy both of those movies. I watch the Teen Witch rap scene I'm having a bad day and need to laugh.

Early Disney princesses never spoke after getting married, because that's where the story ends. Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel... they get married and the movie is essentially over, so pretty much nobody talks anymore (the exception being the occasional pan-out shot of characters discussing some joke... but the characters are never human). Even Tiana only has one line, technically still during her wedding. Disney doesn't depict married life in princess movies; it's too "adult".

I actually find the treatment of Princes in early Disney movies to be objectifying. The Charmings (Snow White, Cinderella) and even Philip (Sleeping Beauty) barely spoke or emoted, except to communicate their interest in marriage and willingness to "do anything" for the princesses. They were plot devices, rather than characters. Just there for the women to marry.

[Saya]

She does still make videos! She was on hiatus for a while for grad school. I love the Labyrinth one too.

Aurora doesn't speak after the fairies tell her, not after married life. After that she just sobs quietly and then gets hypnotized by Maleficent. With Ariel, well, silence was kind of her thing for most of the movie. My prof makes the point that Eric doesn't say "you're the one!" until she gets her voice back, buuuuuuut it was more of a "you're the one who saved me!" thing to me rather than "its your voice that makes you attractive!", I mean he was going to kiss the girl.

The princes are device, and critics make the point that they are the mechanism for salvation, instead of Jesus women get married and are saved (from sleep, from abusive homes, etc). I think of the princesses only Mulan and Pocahontas don't get married, without acknowledging the direct to video sequels, and they're only considered "princesses" by the brand.

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Saya

She does still make videos! She was on hiatus for a while for grad school. I love the Labyrinth one too.

YES! Thanks for letting me know! After my midterms on Wednesday, I am going to lay around and watch Nostalgia Chick all afternoon. #aspirations (Whatever, I hash tagged it. Sometimes I hash tag real life situations. i stand by my choice)

Originally Posted by Saya

The princes are device, and critics make the point that they are the mechanism for salvation, instead of Jesus women get married and are saved (from sleep, from abusive homes, etc). I think of the princesses only Mulan and Pocahontas don't get married, without acknowledging the direct to video sequels, and they're only considered "princesses" by the brand.

See, I never thought the princes were depicted as salvation. I always thought marriage was. This is possibly because I was raised with somewhat unorthodox ideas about marriage. But what always bothered me was that the prince was inconsequential. He could have been anybody. Swap Philip for Charming and nobody knows the difference. It's the marriage that saves them. We wound up with a bunch of little girls who idealized marriage without considering the other person involved. So they push and push for whichever guy they've spent the most time with to propose, not because they want to share responsibilities and make life decisions together, but because that's what's supposed to happen and society tells them he's not "serious" about them if he doesn't produce a ring after a while. Then the men buy the rings to end the nagging and crying and endless hinting, and everyone winds up surprised when marriage, like, takes effort and involves compromise. People assume I secretly want to cheat on my husband because I don't wear jewelry to symbolize my intent not to. Our society is fucked.

[Grausamkeit]

If Beyonce sings about it, then it must be important!

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

If Beyonce sings about it, then it must be important!

I still cannot believe that woman sings a song in which she refers to herself as "it" with a serious face. Holy. Crap.

That's the only song I absolutely will not allow anyone to play in the repair room at work.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by wolf moon

YES! Thanks for letting me know! After my midterms on Wednesday, I am going to lay around and watch Nostalgia Chick all afternoon. #aspirations (Whatever, I hash tagged it. Sometimes I hash tag real life situations. i stand by my choice)



See, I never thought the princes were depicted as salvation. I always thought marriage was. This is possibly because I was raised with somewhat unorthodox ideas about marriage. But what always bothered me was that the prince was inconsequential. He could have been anybody. Swap Philip for Charming and nobody knows the difference. It's the marriage that saves them. We wound up with a bunch of little girls who idealized marriage without considering the other person involved. So they push and push for whichever guy they've spent the most time with to propose, not because they want to share responsibilities and make life decisions together, but because that's what's supposed to happen and society tells them he's not "serious" about them if he doesn't produce a ring after a while. Then the men buy the rings to end the nagging and crying and endless hinting, and everyone winds up surprised when marriage, like, takes effort and involves compromise. People assume I secretly want to cheat on my husband because I don't wear jewelry to symbolize my intent not to. Our society is fucked.

Some of the earlier princes had no personality, but same can be said of the prinesses. Cinderella, Snow White and Aurora were flawless, heavenly creatures with no faults. I read a critique that mentioned that Cinderella and Snow White were motherly figures as well, Cinderella is the "mother" of the mice and Snow White is the "mother" of the dwarves (creepy to think about a 14 year old being a mother before she's whisked away to marry the first guy she met), but this is merely a substitution. Snow White literally sings about someday her prince will come and solve everything, and with Cinderella he was her means to flee a bad domestic situation. The princes got better over time, Prince Philip had as much character development as Aurora (useless, and dependent on three old women), Aladdin and Simba got their own movies, Prince Eric was a character in his own right, John Smith was mostly flawless except some racism that was swiftly erased through SONG, The Beast though never named went through a huge character transformation, and was a very flawed character who made himself better, and the girl was his salvation! Kuzco got his own movie, Phoebus was kinda flawed but a good character in the end, Shang was cool and didn't marry Mulan in the end, Naveen from Princess And The Frog was neat, and again actually had character flaws.

Come to think of it character progress and flaws are more common in male characters than female characters. I guess Disney shot themselves in the foot by having the Disney Princess franchise, I mean Megara was morally ambiguous and she didn't make the cut as a Disney Princess, even though Mulan and Pocahontas did, at least sometimes. Mostly the princesses have superficial flaws. Like, Ariel forgot to sing for her father! Oh no! Belle is a NERD! Mulan is clumsy and awkward! Like Bella Swan, its her only flaw. Only "hey, even an awkward clumsy girl can become a great warrior" is far more empowering than "hey, even an awkward clumsy girl can get a man."

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Saya

Only "hey, even an awkward clumsy girl can become a great warrior" is far more empowering than "hey, even an awkward clumsy girl can get a man."

Yeah, but Bella didn't get a man. She got a violent, sparkly, super-rich vampire. Just think, if she'd made smart choices or thought about her safety instead of his happiness, she probably have just, like, gone to college or made a friend. But instead she married rich and pretty. FOREVER. Clearly, independent thought is for suckers.

Are you familiar with Reasoning With Vampires? It's pretty much the best blog on the internets. The whole thing.

[Graveyard.Crow]

Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows

Damnit Desp! Get outta my koolaid! You don't know me!

I hope you don't actually murder crows

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Graveyard.Crow

I hope you don't actually murder crows

A group of crows is called a murder...

[Saya]

Originally Posted by wolf moon

Yeah, but Bella didn't get a man. She got a violent, sparkly, super-rich vampire. Just think, if she'd made smart choices or thought about her safety instead of his happiness, she probably have just, like, gone to college or made a friend. But instead she married rich and pretty. FOREVER. Clearly, independent thought is for suckers.

Are you familiar with Reasoning With Vampires? It's pretty much the best blog on the internets. The whole thing.

That WHOOOSH you just heard was my productivity going out the window.

I had thought before to buy a copy of Twilight for my sister as a gag gift, then mark it up with comments like that. I saw a girl on another forum do it and thought it was genius, but this is better. More comments that way XD

[wolf moon]

Originally Posted by Saya

That WHOOOSH you just heard was my productivity going out the window.

I had thought before to buy a copy of Twilight for my sister as a gag gift, then mark it up with comments like that. I saw a girl on another forum do it and thought it was genius, but this is better. More comments that way XD

Ha! That happened to me when I first found it. I think she was about a third of the way through the first book; I spent a few days going through the archives so I could read every. single. one. She's hilarious.