Take down the feeder

[Beneath the Shadows]

TAKE DOWN the FEEDER!
(A parable about illegal imigration.)

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. What a beauty of a bird feeder it is, as I filled it lovingly with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table... everywhere!

Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ... quiet, serene and no one demanding their "rights" to a free meal.

Now let's see... Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen.

Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor; your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to "press one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Just my opinion, but maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder. If you agree, pass it on; if not, continue cleaning up the poop!

[LadyLucretia]

My feeling about illegal immigration is this: KEEP THE GOOD ONES. Any illegal immigrant that works a steady job, stays on the right side of the law, is willing to somewhat assimilate into the culture (i.e. learn English) and otherwise contributes to the economy and U.S. culture should get to stay. There are a lot of good workers that just want a better life for themselves and their families. There are a lot of hardworking high school students who can't get a college education because their illegal status disqualifies them for federal aid, and that sucks - many of them were brought in by their parents as children and had no control over it.

But conversely, I think it should be a "one strike and you're out" system. One brush with the law, one job where you're fired for sucking at it in any way, or any extended time of living off government benefits (i.e. more than 6 months) and you get your ass deported. I feel like living in the U.S. is a privilege to be earned, not a right.

Mexicans want to escape a shitty economy and rampant poverty, and the U.S. wants cheap, reliable labor. But there needs to be a lot more regulation in both directions - expediting citizenship for skilled laborers or white collar workers, and expediting deportation for criminals and deadbeats.

[Green.Lady]

My opinion's not completely relevant but I feel like ranting:

In Canada we let pretty much anyone in so we don't have as much of an 'illegal' immigrant problem... Mostly East Asians and Middle Eastern people immigrate here. I don't have a problem with people coming and I know that their countries are oppressive, but there is a little bit of me that gets pissed off when these people don't even try to learn English or French, separate into their own little groups in the cafeteria (or in the real world), and shun you or giggle about you in their own languages if you're not the same colour as them. I've only met a few Asian and Persian people at my who will even have a conversation with me or any other 'white kid.' In school we learn about diversity but it's honestly all a bunch of bullshit.
[/rant]

It's not the same as the US here - we lack the giant 'illegals' issue but I do understand what you guys are saying. I mostly agree with LadyLucretia, some immigrants that try to contribute and don't isolate themselves have every right to citizenship.

[KontanKarite]

I don't agree on the losing a job for any reason you should be kicked out.

I've heard and known people who lost their jobs only on the grounds that someone that didn't like them, got them fired for reasons that weren't entirely professional. And how can you prove it? You could be a bloody angel to a customer but at the end of the day, they could say something really nasty about you, truth or not, and it'd get you shit canned.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I don't agree on the losing a job for any reason you should be kicked out.

I've heard and known people who lost their jobs only on the grounds that someone that didn't like them, got them fired for reasons that weren't entirely professional. And how can you prove it? You could be a bloody angel to a customer but at the end of the day, they could say something really nasty about you, truth or not, and it'd get you shit canned.

Ok, maybe there needs to be documentation of it then. Like a breath test showing that they were drunk at work, or an incident report showing they were negligent in some way. And I think there should be a chance for people to appeal the decisions. The idea is to retain only good workers, and not people who are lazy or incompetent.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Green.Lady

there is a little bit of me that gets pissed off when these people don't even try to learn English or French, separate into their own little groups in the cafeteria (or in the real world), and shun you or giggle about you in their own languages if you're not the same colour as them. I've only met a few Asian and Persian people at my who will even have a conversation with me or any other 'white kid.'

How do you know they're not trying to learn English? I had a view close to yours until I actually tried to learn to speak Spanish. Spanish is a simpler language than English, but after 2 years of college level Spanish I barely have the confidence in my language skills to say "hola" to people. When you are struggling to learn a language, the fear of being mocked for wrong word choice or poor pronunciation can be paralyzing. Have you ever thought that maybe they're afraid of rejection if they talk to native speakers? That they group together because of the comfort of shared culture and language?

I understand that it's frustrating, but I don't know that you or I would act much differently if we relocated to a country with a different language and culture. It's misconceptions like this - that they are "shunning" people or too good to talk to people - that make immigrants feel uncomfortable in the first place.

[Green.Lady]

I realize that it's easier to stay with people of their own ethnicity, but I'm talking about people who have been here for decades and have stayed in a neighborhood of only people from their country and do not speak a word of English/French. I have encountered a great number of these people, believe it or not.

The shunning part is more about high school. The people who shun are fluent or almost fluent in English but don't talk to white kids. Again, I see this every day. I would act like this if I didn't know the language, but the kids at my school do, yet they still isolate themselves. There are a few who will make friends outside their ethnic group, and I do have both Asian and Persian friends, and unfortunately these people have been ridiculed and called 'whitewashed' by their fellow Asians/Persians.

It's just not a happy situation.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Green.Lady

I would act like this if I didn't know the language, but the kids at my school do, yet they still isolate themselves. There are a few who will make friends outside their ethnic group, and I do have both Asian and Persian friends, and unfortunately these people have been ridiculed and called 'whitewashed' by their fellow Asians/Persians.

It's just not a happy situation.

Maybe there's a lot of cultural pressure on them to stay within their ethnic group in terms of socializing. I know that first and second gen. immigrants can be held on a tight leash by their family in terms of how much "western" culture they're allowed to accept (i.e. clothing, music, movies, etc.). If they're being called "whitewashed" for socializing outside their ethnic group then maybe their culture has a fear of assimilation? Or, in some more conservative cultures, western values are seen as shameful and immoral and therefore associating with "westerners" is discouraged.

I'm not defending the behavior. I just see a lot of anti-immigrant rhetoric that tries to paint all immigrants as unwilling to learn English or assimilate in any way, when in reality the situation is rarely that simple.

[Dark Templar]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Now let's see... Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen.

Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor; your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to "press one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Just my opinion, but maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder. If you agree, pass it on; if not, continue cleaning up the poop!

I almost totally agree whit you. We have the same thing going on in Norway! I think its time to start sending out immigrants that are involved in criminal activities and not take inn that many! But that’s just my opinion

[Green.Lady]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I'm not defending the behavior. I just see a lot of anti-immigrant rhetoric that tries to paint all immigrants as unwilling to learn English or assimilate in any way, when in reality the situation is rarely that simple.

Don't worry, I don't think this, I have friends that were born in a variety of countries and know that many are willing to adapt.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Beneath the Shadows, tell me, how exactly do you propose to 'take down the feeder'?
By filling up all the >$1.50-an-hour jobs illegal immigrants occupy?
Good luck finding Americans that will work for that much.

[KontanKarite]

'ey took 'er jubz!

[Green.Lady]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

'ey took 'er jubz!

Lawls.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I think I used the wrong '>' sign, but my point is still clear.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Funny. This happened in 1492 in a certain country (or continent if so inclined), but I don't hear anyone complaining about that...

[spoon!]

My feelings on the subject are that the illegals are contributing to society. They work hard, sometimes getting the shitty jobs we really don't want to do. I used to work at Kmart and would always see a group of Mexicans stroll through dirty and sweaty for some Gatorade and then go right back to working on their job. Some of them round here even know English enough to get higher up on the job scale.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by spoon!

My feelings on the subject are that the illegals are contributing to society. They work hard, sometimes getting the shitty jobs we really don't want to do. I used to work at Kmart and would always see a group of Mexicans stroll through dirty and sweaty for some Gatorade and then go right back to working on their job. Some of them round here even know English enough to get higher up on the job scale.

Ah, yes, the "American citizens don't want those jobs" argument. It's bullshit, plain and simple. There's plenty of American citizens who wouldn't mind at all doing those jobs, no matter how horrible they are, simply because they're jobs. But the thing is, American citizens also want to be paid a decent wage for them.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Beneath the Shadows, tell me, how exactly do you propose to 'take down the feeder'?
By filling up all the >$1.50-an-hour jobs illegal immigrants occupy?
Good luck finding Americans that will work for that much.

If it wasn't for business owners being such cheap-skates, there wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs. There's be, at least, minimum-wage jobs. And if the government actually did something, like impose hefty fines on businesses that have been found to employ illegal immigrants, there, again, wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

If it wasn't for business owners being such cheap-skates, there wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs. There's be, at least, minimum-wage jobs. And if the government actually did something, like impose hefty fines on businesses that have been found to employ illegal immigrants, there, again, wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs.

They already do that, but it's not enough. How would you propose for the government to know when someone's employers are illegal? Profile all the Mexicans? I don't think so. Periodic investigations in all businesses and private households in southern America? That would be even more expensive.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

They already do that, but it's not enough.

Because they barely do it. And the fines they impose aren't quite what I'd call "hefty."

How would you propose for the government to know when someone's employers are illegal? Profile all the Mexicans?

Even though most illegal immigrant in the United States are Mexican, they're not all Mexican. I've also met Canadian, British, German, and Turkish illegals. And what I say applies to them, as well.

I don't think so. Periodic investigations in all businesses and private households in southern America? That would be even more expensive.

Unfortunately, the best way I can think of it to compurise all business records and bank records, and create a program to cross-check them to see if more money than is needed to pay for documented salaries, rent, bills, and other expenses. If they do, then they might have an illegal immigrant working under the tables. Or someone's skimming a bit of pocket cash off the top. But I'm fairly iffy about that idea...

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Ah, yes, the "American citizens don't want those jobs" argument. It's bullshit, plain and simple. There's plenty of American citizens who wouldn't mind at all doing those jobs, no matter how horrible they are, simply because they're jobs. But the thing is, American citizens also want to be paid a decent wage for them.

If it wasn't for business owners being such cheap-skates, there wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs. There's be, at least, minimum-wage jobs. And if the government actually did something, like impose hefty fines on businesses that have been found to employ illegal immigrants, there, again, wouldn't be any $1.50 jobs.

In theory, I agree somewhat with your original post and ideas above. However, I do take issue with a few aspects.

First, there should be penalties for those who intentionally subvert the system ,break the law, or things as such. That being said there already is a system in place - the judicial system can hear cases of people who break the law. And yes, the deport those who commit acts which people take issue with.

As far as deporting people who quit a job, thats something I don't agree with. It leaves too much room for employers to abuse the system for profits. Your workers want a raise? Claim they did something wrong and sack them all - then hire a new lot as the old workers are carted off to where ever they came from.

Also, the above post which I quoted, although again I agree with most of it, you are missing a huge component of this problem.

Sure, Americans would do those jobs if paid well enough. However, if you pay someone twice what it costs to harvest lettuce, oranges, etc. to do the work, the price of those products increases. So then everyone pays more for American lettuce, produce, whatever - and everyone then gets a raise to pay for the increased cost of living, which then means minimum wage must increase - and you see the cycle created.

I personally agree though that it should be that way, because once everyone has a living wage, prices will level off and Americans would do those jobs, and American would be better off.

However, it will never happen. With a global economy, and other countries now having the ability to grow lettuce in South America and ship it to America for cheaper than the Americans can grow/harvest it themselves means the companies are in a bind. Raise wages, pay for legal workers, but then lose the business because markets can get the same product cheaper outside of America.

The problem is Americans want a certain quality of life, which they feel they are entitled to. Until the rest of the world has that problem, expect things to get worse as more companies are starting to feel the pinch of the global economy.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Sure, Americans would do those jobs if paid well enough. However, if you pay someone twice what it costs to harvest lettuce, oranges, etc. to do the work, the price of those products increases. So then everyone pays more for American lettuce, produce, whatever - and everyone then gets a raise to pay for the increased cost of living, which then means minimum wage must increase - and you see the cycle created.

This portion of your reply reminded me of something I had read a while back. And I wouldn't be surprised if you had seen it yourself. Allow me to quote it here...

This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent

From a California school teacher - - -"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers
were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.
Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

CHEAP LABOR?
Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage

Consumers don't want expensive produce

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent

He qualifies for food stamps

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school

He requires bilingual teachers and books

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at taxpayer's expense

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.


Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!

I'm not sure how accurate that is, and some of it seems a bit sketchy, but it does raise some valid points. Especially the "cheap labor" portion.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

So if your an immagrant you need to be a good worker?
MAybe Im misunderstanding, but are you basically saying that the only job you should have if your an immagrant is physical labor or in the service industyetc????

[Beneath the Shadows]

First of all, we're talking about illegal immigrants, and second of all, as far as I'm concerned, illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get any kind of job.

[CptSternn]

Thats some really racist stuff right there, wherever it came from.

Saying some people in society deserve more than others because of their skin colour or lifestyle is just wrong.

To attempt to justify it by making claims that a portion of them act badly just adds to the wrongness.

I mean, do you really believe that all Mexcians act in the manner as you posted above, no matter what your source is? Do you feel that taking the word of one person about one school, which may or may not even exist and posting it as a factual basis of why you think these people should legally be discriminated against is a good thing?

That looks to be taken directly from a white-power style website if you ask me. Thats the same arguments that those types use to induct new members.

Also, it's all tripe. If the US was giving away free money, do you not think the average Americans would be outraged? It makes it sound like they sneak into the country, and just get everything for free - which nothing could be farther from the truth.

Hell, Americans don't get free anything - don't assume for one minute that the US government is giving a free ride to illegals.

You think with people like bush in power, who vetoed health care for poor sick American children would let hundreds of millions a year be spent on paying for poor sick illegal children?

There are no free rides in America for anyone, and no socialised medical, wages, or anything else for anyone in the scope and manner as listed above.

[Lapin]

That article reeks of racism. For one, all three of the high schools I went to, in Hawaii, Virginia, and Maryland, had free daycares. For another, I've heard kids of every ethnicity call teachers names and throw things. It's a mob mentality thing; one boy does it, so the others do. And finally, the free breakfast thing was also in all those schools. You put in an application showing your family's income, and if you qualified, you were put in the system showing that you did.

As for the main subject of illegal immigration, Hawaii has tons of them; only they're from Asia. Most are basically refugees who paid their way on fishing boats to get out of those countries the only way they could. Most become domestics. Is it right? Probably not. Do I sympathize with them? Beyond a doubt, the same way I do with Hispanics who jump the border to find a better way of living and do so. Is it wrong? Honestly, I don't know.

On the subject of immigrants learning English, Hawaii is very different from the Mainland. It's extremely multicultural, and signs are written not only in English, but in Korean, Japanese, Chinese and several others, including Spanish. If someone comes from Japan, and their English is bad, guess what happens? Someone finds an interpreter.

And guess what? No one in Hawaii ever cares. It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal, and no one there has ever even thought to.

So I don't get it. This country doesn't have an official language. What's the big deal if we become bilingual? If the Spanish colonies in Florida had flourished, we already would be. And people in Louisiana speak Franglais anyway. So, once again, I don't get it.