War Crimes

[CptSternn]

So how does one feel about the current level of prosecution of war criminals in Iraq? So far, a dozen underlings with little or no rank have gotten very little time for quite bad crimes while all officials are walking.

While at the same time, videos like this one keep popping up.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/1213/

Anyone else feel these lads need to be held accountable, as do their superiors?

[tenet_2012]

Watch this to see one of the biggest war crime the U.S. has ever committed.

[Binkie]

US didn't even commit this one. Those were the Brits. S'kinda interesting that Sternn would post an article about them and not US soldiers.

[ViciousMistressBee]

thats old news.

[CptSternn]

As we say in Ireland - 'tis all the one'

You think the Iraqi insurgents are going to be like 'look at that patrol over there - wait until one of em speaks before we set off that IED so we make sure we only get those dirty brits'

And although it might be old news, its the first time the video has been circulated all over the net in force. Prior to this ye couldn't find it. Just a matter of days ago it got out and it now on every major site.

And still, doesn't make it right. But, with the article on the NEWS forum with all the asylum seekers giving their storeys, things are just piling up as far as things that can be considered war crimes are concerned.

[CptSternn]

Looks like another about face for the current administration...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...950565,00.html

[i]A US soldier has been sentenced to 90 years in prison for conspiring to **** a 14-year-old Iraqi and kill her and her family.[i]

Wow, half the threads I started to bitch about things in america have all fixed themselves in a matter of days after the repubs were kicked out of congress. Coincidence?

[asta_tintora]

Bah, really doesn't matter whom controls the Congress. Politicians always find a way to mire things with their policies. It is good; however, to see that proper justice was applied. Bah.

[CptSternn]

True, but since one group of politicians in Washington fancies themselves as the defenders of the under dog and campaigners against big business, their policies will undoubtedly favor the working man and help the people rather than further business interests. Don't get me wrong, dems have just as many faults and business associates who they will of course be lending favors to, but at least it will be done in such as way that the public will deem it a necessary evil, the price of doing business if you will, not a whole sale give away of the government like the bush administration is now known for doing.

[Drake Dun]

I don't understand what is wrong with the soldiers' actions in that video. Isn't that the sort of thing the coalition forces are over there to do in the first place? Those kids should feel lucky the soldiers didn't free them, or democratize them. That really hurts.

Seriously though. How about we look at this as what it is - totally unremarkable. What do you think soldiers do? You do realize that when they are not beating people up... when they are working within the rules defined by their superiors, they are killing people, right?

Doesn't it strike you as bizarre that a video like this bothers people, but a video of U.S. soldiers killing Iraqi insurgents under orders and in compliance with the rules of engagement is unoffensive and is even seen as entertaining?

What we need is not a world of well-behaved soldiers. What we need is a world with no soldiers.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

I grew up a military brat and traveld not only around the world but also the us. From the most liberal to the most conservative areas. One thing you do not find is people with views of an overall perspective of the world, history and future. I find it terribly insulting to the us's image and soldiers moral to constantly hear they are commiting "war crimes" in the line of duty. Just like any group or culture there are bad people inside sometimes. The one thing that sets the us apart from other countries is that we have such a strong interdisciplenary program set up to police these people or groups within that does crimes out in the battle field and even society. That video is old news and they were british too. I'm not sure of the ucmj (uniform code of military justice) committee but I'm sure they were held accountable. If people really want to change what happened in Iraq we need to regain a decent intelligence committee to se acutual problems coming our way. I think it was sad that most internal and foriegn agencies thought Iraq had wmd's and other horrible weapons. That is inexcusable for the main reason is that. : you were wrong with Iraq.... What elese aren't you seeing or seeing wrongly?. It's been proven that MI is the best way to prevent wars and keep people from dieing. Soldiers do what they are told and they are in bad circumstances right now. Instead of blaming them for war crime how about placing the blame not on them or the Current administration but on the last 30+ years of having our Intelligence services cut to shreds in congress. Carreer politicians are ruining our country. Not more than several times in the last ten years have I heard a politician speak to what needs to be done to better the next 50yrs. We have turned into a country of impatient children who cannot look past the day or the nextbite of info from a news organization looking for ratings and playing for opinions. I did try to serve in the military but injuries to my ankles prevented me from passing the requirements to serve. If I could I would. I know many personell and know the culture quite well. Stop claiming the us is commiting war crimes to deflect formt he fact that our biggest failing is policy over the las several decades that have left the country badly devided and open to short term opinions. Serving in the military is Honorable and nescessary. I wish it wasn't. A true soldier prays for peace. I don't want to see my friends killed either. Stop putting blame on the military and have respect for the people who serve the country in whatever way they can.

[CptSternn]

The american military is nothing more than hired mercenaries these days. I mean, anyone now signing up has to be an idiot or want to kill Iraqis - I find it hard to be any 'patriots' would be signing up for duty right now and wanting to go to Iraq because they feel they will be 'helping' or 'protecting america'.

After they leave you then have a large chunk going to the private security companies we see there, which are true mercenaries by definition. They enjoy the conflict and killing. Considering they are all former us military, well that speaks volumes about them and the people who are in the us military.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Damn... I thought you died, or something.

I was excited that you weren't posting anymore.

[Cyntrox]

I'm glad you're back. You haven't seen me before I guess, but I have been looking into the archives and man, you made some interesting discussions!

On topic: I have seen a lot of these videos, and well, I find it hard to know what really happened. All I have seen is a small movie of some soldiers, I do not know anything about what orders they have received from their superiors or anything. I have seen a lot of people who just sees something and does not think about the variables they do not know, thus they do not know what they are talking about. It's like "Soldiers beat people. Soldiers=bad."

[ArtificialOne]

I'm sorry that you feel that way about the military. It's a great life with lots of friends..that I still have today. The media has waged a war for the last 30+ years to discredit the military and see them as thugs and bullies. Lets not forget that most of the military are reserves who work normal 9 to 5 jobs. Also corps of engineers who build and maintain lots of large infrastructure around the us to help keep floods and roads going. The army also goes into disaster areas and helps people evacuate and gives them medical care. Just a week ago the national gaurd was helping farmers in the midwest feed cattle and help other ranchers save their livestock. I didn't see the media out there throwing bails of hay out of helicopters or getting people out fo the snow. I also didn't see the aclu or any other activist groups out there helping anyone... Saying the military is only paid murderers is very ignorant and ill informed. With your attitude no one would help each other and you would be open to all sorts of people who would come in and impose their views and policies on you. With the hard work and suffering our for fathers both military and other you have the right to sit at your computer and spill out garbage from your keyboard. Ask youself, Could you or would you defend yourself or your family if something were to happen? Others? Are you willing to sacrifice? Blame politicians for short sightedness but not the military. The military does not operate out of selfish and self serving needs. Thats why its called Selfless service. Stop listening to disgruntled few people and a horribly biased media.

[ArtificialOne]

btw I geuss growing up with the ira bombing innocent civilians would color your point of view...and also we're not as censored as your media is....

[Drake Dun]

The media has only one bias: profit. It is a business. If more people will watch because they take a liberal bias, they'll do it... and then switch to a conservative bias just as happily the next day.

More important than their bias is their standards. They realize that good reporting takes way more time and effort and yields no substantial business gains. That's why no matter what end of the political spectrum you come from, you can find factual proof that the media is biased against you... because they are sloppy with the facts, and any botched issue of fact is going to look like bias in the right light.

Blaming Iraq on the CIA is very nice, except that it is nonsense. Put "bad intelligence" and "Iraq" into Google and start reading.

Oh, right... the Internet is biased too, right?

Besides, the CIA has more important things to do, like assassinating democratically elected foreign leaders, and carrying out false flag operations to discredit peaceful dissident organizations. It's not fair to ask them to set aside their real work and spend all their time protecting Americans.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

Good point on the emdia proffit thing. Discrediting and assasinating people..... maybe in cuba.. but then again theres not much you need to do there. And I really don't believe much on the internet anyways.. Most of the time it's typed in by people with a motive... Thats why it's important to have first hand knowledge about people.... I'm not claiming I'm a know it all or I know anyone in the cia.. but what you hear on the internet is very different than what you hear from people actually in the areas. It's also a good propaganda tool for dictactors and people against the us to claim the cia is involved in everything. If people knew how much other people really didn't give a damn about them they would feel small and worthless so they make up crap and conspiracy theories to feel important. And bad intelligence is what got us into Iraq. And poor short sided polititians. No matter how much "googeling" you want to do. Most crap is made up to try and make the world look more exciting than it really is. It's a shame but it's reality.

[Drake Dun]

So let me get this straight. You do not believe the media. You do not believe what you read on the Web. I won't even bother checking to see whether you believe what it says on Wikipedia.

Yet you have very specific opinions on all of these topics, and you are very confident about them.

Well... that kind of narrows it down, you know? Maybe you can explain to me how you are uniquely informed about these issues. A job in the White House? Divine inspiration?

Here, maybe you can trust this source: the U.S. government.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/ch...7/contents.htm

That's the government explaining how the C.I.A. spent millions of tax dollars trying to buy Chilean elections, and how when it didn't work, they instead spent the money to foster a violent overthrow of the government - successfully. Some of that money was given to "right-wing terrorist organizations". These are the government's words, not mine. "The pattern of United States covert action in Chile is striking but not unique. It arose in the context not only of American foreign policy, but also of covert U.S. involvement in countries within and outside Latin America."

Other countries like Guatemala.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/ike/guat/
http://www.foia.cia.gov/guatemala.asp

Those are the State Department's and CIA's documents on how the CIA fostered an overthrow of democratically elected Guatemalan leadership a couple decades before Chile.

I am not talking about aliens on the grassy knoll. I am talking about documented historical facts.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

Yeah.. they used to call it common sense.. and that stuff was nearly 30'yrs ago.. think things maybe changed a little? The cia has done bad stuff and usually at the behest of bad polititians. The point I'm trying to make is that conspiracy theories are bs and that bad mistakes usually cause even worse crap to happen. Don't blame bad judgement on conspiracy theories. Do you think that they were all wrong? Just look at Chavez and Bolivia.. quickly tanking due to socialists, and the us isn't doing anything there right now? I think attention is better served in making sure intelligence agencies and far out wako pollies don't make foriegn or domestic policy, and I mean on both sides. I don't want to become a nazi or a communist. And just look at what canada's doing to us right now..spying....using coins no less.. and what would be there need.. I mean they don't do anything but whine...

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness

Damn... I thought you died, or something.

I was excited that you weren't posting anymore.

'Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated'

Refer to my RENDITION post for more details.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=4481

-S

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

I'm sorry that you feel that way about the military. It's a great life with lots of friends..that I still have today. The media has waged a war for the last 30+ years to discredit the military and see them as thugs and bullies. Lets not forget that most of the military are reserves who work normal 9 to 5 jobs.

It doesn't help that the us military tends only to invade small nations it thinks it can conquer - like Panama, Nicaragua, etc. Turns out now they bit off more than they can chew.

Ye can't blame the media for reporting the facts. If your a big guy and pick on small people they label you a bully, plain and simple.

As far as them having 9-5 jobs, so what? So did the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians before the american military destroyed their homes and businesses and kill them and their family members.

To say they are 'just doing their job' or 'just following orders' is a cop out. It didn't work for the nazi's who went on trial for their behaviour at the concentration camps, it won't fly now.

Think about this - ol gw is now recruiting 20,000 new soldiers. On top of that this year alone the army is going to recruit 80,000+ - not to mention the numbers for the other military branches. Does anyone of those new recruits actually think they are going to 'change' Iraq? Do you think they are 'patriots' going to save america? OR more likely they are ignorant teens, who just want to say they went and shot something.

Is there any educated person with half a brain going to join this year? Does anyone think they actually are 'protecting' america or making the world better by being there? Simple answer is no. The people now going are either to stupid or have something else in mind other than the safety of america who are going. More like they watched too many Rambo flicks or saw Full Metal Jacket for the umpteenth time and now want to 'get some action'.

I find it hard to classify them as patriots defending the honour and safety of america when the reason they sign up is not to help the nation or the people of Iraq.

[DarkHeartedDemoness]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

'Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated'

Refer to my RENDITION post for more details.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=4481

-S

You think the majority here is old enough to catch the Beatle's reference? Oh, that Paul...

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

btw I geuss growing up with the ira bombing innocent civilians would color your point of view...and also we're not as censored as your media is....

Well first, 'innocent civilians' is a stretch. Remember, all charges against all volunteers were dropped in 1998 under the Good Friday Agreement. All members were given amnesty and released from jail. Their actions were deemed patriotic and they themselves were given POW status as active patriots fighting for their nation, by both Ireland and britian - and also recognised by america. Today they are honoured yearly in marches and with monuments built around our great country.

On a funny side note here one of my favourite monuments is the monument on the Sarsfield bridge in Limerick. It symbolizes the early IRA and their fight during the uprising with men holding automatic weapons. Why is that funny? Well, it used to be a statue honouring the british who died in the 'charge of the light brigade' during the crimean wars, but the IRA blew it up and the city elected to erect a monument to the lads. I love telling that story.

But anyway, what was bombed as you say was military sites and targets of the invading outside force, much like the Iraqis are bombing in their country. Were civilians killed? Yes, but to date the number of TOTAL civilians killed over the past 30 YEARS in the conflict is UNDER 1,200. Considering the us killed over 2,500 civillians in the first couple weeks of the Iraq war, well, the numbers speak for themselves, especially now with the number of civilians deaths in Iraq reaching in the tens of thousands, in less than a few years.

Remember, even though bush claims they are 'insurgents', its their country, and they are Iraqis - america is an outside invading and occupying nation, like britian. So in some ways you are correct to say my views have been shaped by what I saw growing up - watching an invading force occupy my country, kill my parents, and claim they did so to 'help us'.

But lets not forget the proud history of Ireland. In 1916, the uprising which led to independence was done by the IRA. The IRA carved out what is now Ireland by leading a campaign of guerrilla warfare against the british. We are a nation founded on this very principle - much like america who did the same back in 1776, even though today they like to 'modify' their nomenclature. The british labeled George Washington a terrorist leader - the 'Minute Men' were the first guerilla terrorist organisation there in the states, now considered patriots, but at the time regarded as terrorists. Half the people in america at the time, now deemed 'tories' opposed the minute men and wrote about their actions as terrorists in many historical papers and books.

That being said, look where america is today - now free from british rule, thanks to a dedicated volunteer insurgency. Much like most of Ireland. But i digress. Back to your statement.

Our media is probably the least censored in comparison. If you check my posts here, you will find hundreds of articles that never made it in the states. We get news via our satellite companies here - from a dozen news agencies in a dozen countries. How many Middle Eastern news networks are carried for free where you live? What about Italian? Germany? Bulgarian? Polish? We get them all, where as american news is the big three (abc/cbs/nbc), plus fox and cnn. All of which are owned by large corporate conglomerates with ties to the white house.

[ArtificialOne]

I'm still sorry you feel that way about the us mil. Also they met the recruitment goals for the year. You still didn't answer for the crimes the IRA committed, I see you have a double standard. AS Far as the Mil doing the invading, of course they do, you expect Clinton and Kerry or Blair to rush in with a gun... No But they sure order the invasions. You can quote all sorts of stuff about how the mil is just a bunch of teens looking for action. Thats very a very ignorant and missinformed statement. The far left says the same statements all the times ( they are poor, they are minorities blah blah blah...(most of the people at my recuitment station were all middleclass white people looking for good careers, almost half were girls) In fact the mil is the most diverse org in the world, we have women, men and all ethnic groups in it. How about you take a trip to a mil base and talk to some people. You can watch all the news you want from anywhere in the world,but firsthand knowledge trumps it. I say to everyone to find some of these people and talk to them. Especially mil families and politicians. I also find a funny double standard when it comes to gathering war criminals from euro conflicts. Too many details to list but hears a few, Isreal had a great deal to do with tracking down nazis that europe wouldn't or couldn't and How that general was and I believe is still being hidden in kosovo?? And I don't want our mil to be policemen and I also think if people really want freedom in any form they will fight for it. As the tom petty song goes "Everyones got to fight to be free". I also think it's a bouble standard to ignore other more important problems like the Asian reconstruction effort after the tsunami.. What has Indonesia done with the billions...or it's neighbors..... Not much, take a walk around the islands and look at all the homes still gone the hospitals missing and homeless kids running around. That money which was donated by govt's and private people is definately not being thrown around out there... They say "logistics" problems.. yeah like it's that hard to order supplies from Australia.. And when australia calls attention to it, they get bad mouthed by Bali..... And they also let most of the terrorists go from the Bali Bombing... Is there any calls from the critics of the us to have anything done about it... Nope Everyone should take care of themselves unless help is asked for. This is my last post on this because it's just more insane us bashing, we have our problems you have yours. We could go on forever sighting examples of this and that. If there was more to this war crimes bs it would be all over the media all over the world, they couldn't keep a secret if millions of lives depended on it.
And plus if you have an old fashioned sattelite dish you can see anything from around the world. Once again I like how europeons assume they get all the media and we get crap from cable news networks. Anythings out there if you so wish, just have to look. I'm sure if I traveled around Ireland I could find people who didn't know, or gave a shit that was in the news too. Face it people have their own problems and could care less what happens in the world. Anyways have a nice life and hope your not a victim to those many supposed us warcrimes thats going on....or maybe you should be..... I'll let the people decide.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It doesn't help that the us military tends only to invade small nations it thinks it can conquer - like Panama, Nicaragua, etc.

Not sure when the US invasion of Nicaragua occured...as for the Panama invasion:

On December 15, 1989, Noriega sought and was given by the legislature the title of chief executive officer of the government. The Noriega-led assembly declared that a state of war with the United States existed. The next day Panamanian soldiers killed an unarmed U.S. Marine officer dressed in civilian clothes. US response was swift as on Decemeber 17th the US invaded.

Think about this - ol gw is now recruiting 20,000 new soldiers.

Nope. The soldiers already exist in number and no new recruitments are required to make up this number.

Does anyone of those new recruits actually think they are going to 'change' Iraq? Do you think they are 'patriots' going to save america? OR more likely they are ignorant teens, who just want to say they went and shot something.

Is there any educated person with half a brain going to join this year? Does anyone think they actually are 'protecting' america or making the world better by being there? Simple answer is no.

Considering your arguement is not based on fact, a simple mind would come up with that answer.

The people now going are either to stupid or have something else in mind other than the safety of america who are going. More like they watched too many Rambo flicks or saw Full Metal Jacket for the umpteenth time and now want to 'get some action'.

For those of us who actually watched those 2 movies, we gathered the message clearly of the ugly face of war and the conflict which remains long after the guns have stopped firing.

I find it hard to classify them as patriots defending the honour and safety of america when the reason they sign up is not to help the nation or the people of Iraq.

I find it difficult to classify the IRA as a patriotic organization doing what is it again "defending the honour and safety" of the Irish. I am sure the IRA turned away all those members who wanted to kill a Brit or just anyone for the sake of killing them.

I doubt you know anyone in the US military much less spoken to any of them. Yet, you make such declarations of who they are and their intellectual state. I have an idea, Stern. Do not speak for the US military and do not judge them based on your own biased eyes.