Iranian Children's Cartoon Promotes Suicide Bombing

[Binkie]

Mael,
personally, that's just not the way this thread topic rubbed me. Tom has been aggressively arguing the same issue, but again, I'm just not seeing that aside from remarks made by a third party member of the arguement who said this justified his hated for muslims as a whole, not just palestinians. I don't know. I've been mostly focused on other individuals, thusly I may just be blind to the innuendos.

Regardless of what is being perpetrated here by others, you've essentially done the same thing. On a thread denoucing one nation, you will always be there to bring up the US in any way possible. It's like an infatuation with you to sit back and blame all the woes of the world on the US or Israel.

You honestly think the US is going to attack Iran or Syria? Syrian is being dealt with by the UN and has it's ass getting spanked rather hard while they're being publicly humiliated by this investigation. Iran isn't worried about the US anymore. What they're concerned with is Israel, especially since Sharon is out of the picture and mostly likely Lukid's Netanyahu, who's campaign message has been that he will bomb Iran's facilities if negotiations fail to produce a result, is going to come to power. So yeah, no surprise there that the regime is scared mostly of a nation they've been agitating and fucking with for the last few decades.

And I can tell you're just spouting off country names, because Tunisia and Morocco are some of the most lax, moderate muslim nations in existance. In recent years (especially after the Iraq invasion), Libya has given up it's extremist label and has just become mostly eccentric (well, it's leader has anyways).

And Israel isn't the topic of discussion here. Like I said, you just can't bare yourself to comment on muslim nations doing bad. It's not even like you say, "This is bad, but look at Israel." You just dive straight into bashing Israel or the US without ever conceding that anyone else has done something wrong, especially in a thread where THAT nation's wrong-doing is the very topic.

[MrMaelstrom]

Sorry if it took me a long time to acknowledge what the topic title concerned.

Let us put it this way, I know you and Al will stand up and defend US/Israel and you know that I will defend the palestinian cause.
Considering this, we've both just stuck to our sides of the arguement, because I knew that I didn't have to point out the obvious transgressions of my side, seen as you'd do it; and I think you knew you didn't have to point out the weaknesses and excesses on "your" side, knowing fully well that I would do it for you.

This might have led us both into thinking the other was just obtuse to the opposing side of the arguement. I'm quite sure I've come across that way quite often, but it isn't so. Please try to believe that.

Regarding the topic, when talking about children and suicide bombings, Hamas and palestinians, I'm sorry to contradict you, but Israel DOES play a very important role in this issue (and subsequently, the US in it's role as partner and ally to Israel).

As for the US in general, again, they've got the finger in every pie at the moment, and I don't think there is a single global issue that doesn't have the US as a key player (even considering the regional asian conflict involving N. Korea), so sorry, I won't let the US administration off the hook that easily.

It really is a shame that Europe doesn't have a stronger role in a lot of these issues, or that we simply do not discuss that angle of arguements here, because you'd see me a lot more often on your side of the arguement (if you think I loathe the US administration [as I openly do], you'd probably be very surprised at some of my opinions on that angle). Or maybe we'd still disagree as bitterly as we do, but at least the focus wouldn't be on the US so often.


As for other matters discussed on this thread, do I delete them or what? Tstone seems to already have given the "go ahead" regarding his posts, although I'd like him to be a wee bit more plain if that was indeed the case. As for the others, I hope to hear from you soon on this matter, seen as already mentioned, it doesn't do justice to any of the people involved.

[ghostposts]

Manimal has a point. We need to get this back on track.



"Just for the record, I never slept with anyone from G.net. Thank you very much."

Oh, I really think that could be easily remedied, Mael.

[MrMaelstrom]

Not really, I live very, very far away (coordinates are available underneath my avatar.

[ghostposts]

and I'm sure at least two dozen women are jotting them down.

[MrMaelstrom]

Thread edited with posters' consent.

If my editing isn't enough, let me know.

Alkilyu, I know that leaving your posts up might make you look bad due to the absence of the posts you were replying to, but if I had done it without your permission, it could be perceived as censorship (which is unamerican ).
Tman, OTFW and Urian gave their permission. You just haven't logged on since it happened. Please let me know if you want anything you posted deleted or edited out.


And let the debacle continue.

So here's (yet) another pot shot: Binkie wrote that Iran used children as minesweepers in the 80's.
Would that be when Iran was considered a strategic partner and not a part of the Axis-Of-Evil?
You know, when reagan sold them missiles to support the contras in a guerrilla war trying to overthrow a legitimate democratically elected Sandinista government in Nicaragua (the Iran/Contra scandal)? :P

Btw, I like you because regardless of being a ideological oppositte, you fight fair which forces me to do so as well (sometimes). Thank you.

[edible_eye]

it's so refreshing to watch - when blood is spilled, fangs are bared and the flesh is quickly flayed - that those who have been here for a while, despite the obvious frenzied attempts at slaughter, can take a deep breath and start to reel their feral inclinations in.

in through the nose... out through the mouth...



my feelings, take 'em or leave 'em -

palestine danced in the streets after 9-11. there's a strong anti-american sentiment in that country. i'm american. i'm a male. if someone wants to dance on my perceived grave, i will crush his fucking head. that's not to say i hate palestine, but i'm quick to confront anti-american rhetoric when it comes from such a region. i don't approach palestinians in boston as anti-american, for everyone deserves their own say, but i will absolutely go head-to-head if and when such sentiment is expressed.

this video, whether or not it speaks for palestine as a whole (and i doubt it does), portrays a vile element at work within the fabric of its culture. they, a significant sect of their people, are willing to train and sacrifice their children in order to effect their desires. to deny that is to view it with one eye shut.

i consider myself fairly open. i don't consider myself fully open. i'll listen to what others have to say. i'll attack if i perceive even a bit of verbiage veering off what i believe is right and true.

that video is an open door. what's behind that door is an abomination. the ideology the people on that video endorse warrants that i'd be able to sit and watch every single one of them be flash-fried while i was relaxing in my home, drinking a beer with a smile on my face. does that mean i shouldn't watch it? no. does it mean that i shouldn't pay attention to understand why or how such an abomination is continued from generation to generation? no.

there's a difference between 'understanding' and 'acceptance' or 'support'.

for example - i understand why hitler exterminated jews. i neither accept his reason nor do i support them.

i understand why the hijackers were purported to have flown planes into the world trade center. i neither accept their beliefs nor support them.

i understand why men sometimes r-pe women. i neither accept the justifications of nor do i support any explanations of the act.

i understand why people can't stand and rebel against the arrogant and pompous attitudes of the wimpy french - and i both accept and support the continuance of such...

the point is - to understand a skewed mentality, be it a philosophy or cultural slant on perpetrating the survival of a species is one thing... supporting it or accepting such a skewed belief is quite another.

[Circle V]

You are my hero, edible_eye. I bow to your awesomeness.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

So here's (yet) another pot shot: Binkie wrote that Iran used children as minesweepers in the 80's.
Would that be when Iran was considered a strategic partner and not a part of the Axis-Of-Evil?
You know, when reagan sold them missiles to support the contras in a guerrilla war trying to overthrow a legitimate democratically elected Sandinista government in Nicaragua (the Iran/Contra scandal)? :P

Thing is, Mael, we had funds coming in from all places. We did not need to sell arms to Iran. We had Saudi's funding the same groups down there. So why did we even sell anything to the Iranians?

First of all, we'll have to travel back to 1985 when TWA flight 847 was hijacked by several radical Shias in Lebanon. It was no secret back then that Iran was "exporting the revolution" to places such as Lebanon, where that country's Shia radicals unleashed hell in the 80s. For some odd-ball reason though, Ali Akbar Hasheim Rafsanjani, Iran's Parliament speaker, out of nowhere was asking for the release of the hostages. This is when dialogue began between Iran and the US on Iran's badly needed arms sales. Iran needed these sales, the US didn't. Or did they? One of the agreements on behalf of these sales was that Iran would condition the release of US hostages being held by the Lebanese extremists. It was an arms-for-hostages deal. Take a stab at who ended up routing those arms sales to Iran? Israel.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Sorry Binks, but in my opinion, Alkilyu started this thread in order to further try to bunch up all of the palestinians into a hatemongering group.

Problemo Numero Uno: You assumed.

As for the reason this post was created, I saw a news report of a cartoon made trying to teach kids that suicide bombing is just as required for them to know as their food groups. Hundreds of thousands of arabs did not make those cartoon, a select few hang-mongers (who are muslim) made it. It is disgusting as it is vile.

Just as the average citizen of ANY country did not have a hand in making the vile (sorry Binks) Grand Theft Auto, neither did any of the countries whose political leaders who publically denounce Isreal make those sick cartoons.

But it was made, and the Jews in those cartoons bear a striking resemblence to the Jews portrayed in Nazi propoganda films and posters ON Iranian State Television.

How coincidental it was aired the day after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared a "World Without Zionism conference" wheren Mr. Batshit Crazy declared "This stain of disgrace [Israel] will be wiped off the face of the world - and this is attainable." Which is all too familiar.

Now, my issue with the Iranians that made this, and the Iranian leaders who condone and justify such evil. You can seperate both of those from the people as a whole on your own. I do it on a daily basis and don't need an asterisk in front of every sentence.

Here is where the kicker comes in: This is the equivalent of trying to be "more Catholic than the Pope" because the Palestinians now accept that there must be a two-state solution to the Middle East conflict. As much as you feel for those people (and I do too, the ones who can see fit to live their lives and not maime and kill) then you should be able to agree that those people do not need outside influence trying to get them to do something the rest of the region knows better to try, and that is take on Isreal.

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Thread edited with posters' consent.

If my editing isn't enough, let me know.

Alkilyu, I know that leaving your posts up might make you look bad due to the absence of the posts you were replying to, but if I had done it without your permission, it could be perceived as censorship (which is unamerican ).
Tman, OTFW and Urian gave their permission. You just haven't logged on since it happened. Please let me know if you want anything you posted deleted or edited out.

Yeah that's a good idea. Sorry, I was at a funeral today otherwise I'd have agreed too. So yeah, delete as needed.

[Binkie]

E_E,
now that you've stated the situation of 9/11 was "understandable," provide reasoning and logic behind the act, as Mael has for suicide bombings. That will then make your analogy a clear representation of what occured on this thread. At that point, you can then tell me it's not justification you're providing.

[MrMaelstrom]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should be wiped off from the face of the Earth.

But let me give you something to your side you forgot to mention (that's how sweet I feel right now, don't count on this tomorrow):

the problem is that the palestinians were represented by the Palestinian Authority.
But now, there have been elections, and Hamas made a killing (good pun, huh?).

So now, we have the official side of the palestinians undermined by Hamas who does not yet willing to recognize the existance of Israel (at least on current borders).

And I hope that Ariel Sharon leaves the political scene. Maybe without him, if the Likud Party doesn't win, if the Labour Party or Sharon's newly created party represented by Shimon Peres wins, then maybe there's a real window of oportunity for Israel to pull the rug from under Hamas' feet by making their arguements unfounded by taking a more positive step regarding palestinians (which would pull the rug from a lot of hotheads 'round the region.

But the fact remains that Hamas holds some political power now, and that's as fucked up as the "Islamic" party which just won major seats in Egypt.

I still believe Saudi Arabia to play a key role in all of this (and a lot of it intentionally, right down to 9/11) just so I pick on another country for a change...

[edible_eye]

pay careful attention to word usage, binkie - for that is where all gray area resides.

the attacks on america were not "understandable". i "understand" why the taliban say they attacked. i do not agree with, nor do i support, nor do i accept their rationale - however i "understand" what they say and where they are coming from and what their ideology mandates for them as a people, and for that, i have only one feeling - to destroy them before they have a chance to destroy one more american citizen or soldier.

i believe that is also what mael was trying to say earlier. i won't put words into his mouth, but that was what i took away from his posts.

*edit* - al, i mourn with you for your loss.

[AlKilyu]

Hmm good points Mael. See, you can point out all of America's flaws cause, like some others, everything is out there on the table. Not so with the above mentioned countries. So we don't know just how the Iranian public feels (I have an idea, they are tired of all this too and are not being represented) same with the Palestinians who I know for a fact, as a whole the lot of them doesn't want all this.

Yes I am sweet tonite as well. As I said I was at a funeral all day today so...

[Binkie]

e_e,
I assumed you were regarding me with your remarks earlier about what constitutes as justification, but in the same way that Circle V mistakenly changed the language on everyone, the word Mael used was not "understand," but "understandable." I made an attempt to clarify that when I responded to him by using the correct word. In addition to that, there was reasoning provided earlier behind the adjective. Combine both and this is why I've used words such as "justification" in response. To place reasoning and logic behind the act of suicide bombing or 9/11 is to justify it.

[edible_eye]

fair point - and in regard to the belief system of al qaeda, there absolutely WAS reasoning and logic behind their attacks, as far as they were concerned. to ignore that is to ignore the fundamental mindset of those we wish to defend ourselves from - or better put, those we wish to eradicate from the face of the earth.

as the old adage clearly states - "know thine enemy."... as in...

[Binkie]

Exactly, but for someone on this board to say that such an act was reasonable is for them to suggest that the 9/11 was not extremist.

Again, this is why I asked Mael for clarification on several occassions in regards to using children as suicide bombers.

[AlKilyu]

Thanks edible. I am not nor would I ever bring something like that up for pity, I was just explaining my late arrival.

And edible has every right to get upset and nervous at these actions, as do we all.

I am not about converting the world to Democracy, as long as whatever goverment they have doesn't make me, well as edible put it (in so many words) "worry".

As a young boy growing up I saw the news footage of Iranians burning American flags and thought the country as a whole hated us, so I hated them. I don't want to know what they were told concerning us, it was probably just as bad POST SHAH because Ma and Pa American had no reason to look twice at them until the Shah left and hostages were taken.

Of course I got older and although I don't live down the road from a pub that has every country in the world represented there, I did meet a few Iranians and learned, only after I was a teenager, most of those people were not there by choice and even so it wasn't the feeling of the country as a whole.

Point being that region has had enough hate. They see the younger generations "softening" and out of fear they create such propaganda.














And G.I. Joe never killed anyone, they always shot branches above the heads of Cobra soldiers (who were robots or something like that) which fell and knocked them out.


All those fucking lasers "SHOOT EM IN THE CHEST FOR ONCE!"

[MrMaelstrom]

There is reasoning and logic to the reality that makes someone want to do something about their situation.

I don't necessarily mean that there's logic to following that up by wiring up kids to explosives.

What I originally didn't appreciate was the manner in which you altogether waived away the importance of the land and dismissed it as nothing.

I do not condone the taking up of arms by palestinians.

I do not condone an adult palestinian who choses to kill military targets.

I condone anyone who sends a child to do it, or consents to it.

Also, regarding those testimonies of the proud families of the dumbass idiots, what are they supposed to say other than just that, if they don't want a cap popped in their arse by the jihadists?

[MrMaelstrom]

Bin Laden ain't the (only) answer.

Now there's Zarkawi.

There will be others.

They're more a consequence then the root to the problem.

And I'm not saying that we are the root of the problem either.

But how can we solve it? Correction, how do we help solve it?

[edible_eye]

i agree bin laden isn't the only answer. i see him as more of a poster boy nowadays, anyway.

it was just a cool pic.

[Binkie]

As I stated before, the value of land is a non-issue in determining whether it's A-OK or not OK to seduce a child into strapping a bomb to himself and taking other lives as well as his own. Well, it's a non-issue for those who are not extremists. Therefor when you jumped so quickly onto that and seemingly provided reasoning to suicide attacks, I wanted to be able to discern right then and there, Mael, of whether you were extremist in those regards.

[edible_eye]

a bigger question to all since we know that children are used as weapons -

do you or would you condone killing the children of extremists in order to stem off suicide / homicide attacks?

can you or do you see them as militant combatants? if you had the chance to stare into the eyes of a child as he pulled a trigger from his pocket and held his thumb above it - could you fire a round into his head?

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Also, regarding those testimonies of the proud families of the dumbass idiots, what are they supposed to say other than just that, if they don't want a cap popped in their arse by the jihadists?

Yeah I am not of the impression they mean that either. Maybe a small few, if that.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Binkie

As I stated before, the value of land is a non-issue in determining whether it's A-OK or not OK to seduce a child into strapping a bomb to himself and taking other lives as well as his own.

True, the determining issue is to terrorize and coerce change in a specific target by making them think "there are no rules to this and I'm in danger at all times".

Originally Posted by Binkie

Well, it's a non-issue for those who are not extremists.

Here I disagree. I find that the real issues of the non-extremists are in fact strongly determined by land (as well).
Not in the extremist "we must drive these infidels from this holy/sacred ground", but as a literal space/territory that that can shelter "your" people and in which their future can be determined by themselves.
I know it stinks to high heaven of the nazi Lebens Raum (vital space) theory which led to Chekoslovakia, Bavaria, Austria and finnaly triggering WWII in Poland, but it is still a major issue, specifically hydric resources.

Originally Posted by Binkie

Therefore, when you jumped so quickly onto that and seemingly provided reasoning to suicide attacks, I wanted to be able to discern right then and there, Mael, of whether you were extremist in those regards.

I must say that indeed it does seem so and my first posts did little to dispell that. I should have know better seen as it was you who were posting, but it seemed to me at the time that you were saying that it was better to always flee and take refuge in other countries than to take up an armed resistance (thus, in my view, totally downplaying a real need for a palestinian state). I should've known better than to make those assumptions about you.
I therefore painted myself into a corner.

Clarification?
I'm a pompous little arsehole who likes to feel that I'm always right no matter what and will do just about anything to inflate my starving little ego. I thought that would've been clear by now. You're just to polite to point tit out.

I'm not a hypocrite.
I don't have any conspiracy theories.
I have a one-man conspiracy of my own and a real plan for world domination (you not taking me seriously on this is exactly why I will succeed).