Abortion is murder

[AshtrayKitten]

No two ways about. In order for the pro-choice argument to be taken seriously by an irrational, emotional public, it must omit this crucial reality.

Although a mass of non-sentient cells gestating in the womb is still human, one can feel less guilty about putting it to death and erasing its possible future than they can about an infant already born. It doesn't make it not murder simply because your victim cannot speak, hear, see or think.

"When does life begin?" is a misleading question. The answer that faux debate is actually searching for is, "when is a person formed?"

The moment a fetus is conceived, it consists of living tissue belonging to what will eventually become a person. It is alive and human.

A woman has every right to alter her body how she sees fit, including altering it to not be pregnant any longer. She does so, however, at the cost of a human life. Indeed, people who claim they value human life, but are fine with abortion, only value it conditionally.

The day that medical science figures out how to keep a fetus alive outside of the womb is the day the false dichotomy of choice vs. life will disappear.

[jack_the_knife]

As long as the child is still in the womb, I think it's a parasite. Every pregnant woman should have the right to have it removed.

[Eclipsing the Son]

"Let's be honest. People suck and it's easier to kill them while they're still in the womb" - Bill Hicks.

[TurquoiseXx]

Ashtray, although I agree with most of what you said, you're gonna have one hell of a time if you think you can change the minds of some people. Abortion has been an on-going issue that will probably never have a proper solution.

[Velma Velvet]

I wonder. Are there people here who are for abortion and don't care whether it's murder or not?

[AshtrayKitten]

Originally Posted by TurquoiseXx

Ashtray, although I agree with most of what you said, you're gonna have one hell of a time if you think you can change the minds of some people. Abortion has been an on-going issue that will probably never have a proper solution.

I'd like to see people who are for abortion confront the murder aspect, though I suspect we'll see the dehumanizing language common to pro-choice arguments being used.

(For the record: not being a woman, I'm rather indifferent to the issue)

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

I'd like to see people who are for abortion confront the murder aspect, though I suspect we'll see the dehumanizing language common to pro-choice arguments being used.

(For the record: not being a woman, I'm rather indifferent to the issue)

It's not an aspect. A fetus, whether you like it or not, is NOT a child. A child is outside, a fetus is in. Saying a fetus is a seperate human being is like calling an egg a chicken.

[AshtrayKitten]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

It's not an aspect. A fetus, whether you like it or not, is NOT a child. A child is outside, a fetus is in.

I didn't say it was a child, but that it's human life.

Saying a fetus is a seperate human being is like calling an egg a chicken.

Excluding vegans, we make omelettes because the lives of chickens do not mean much to us. Allowed to gestate, the egg will become a chick and then a chicken. That doesn't happen with our omelet, because we kill that life.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

I didn't say it was a child, but that it's human life.

So is a single human cell.

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

Excluding vegans, we make omelettes because the lives of chickens do not mean much to us. Allowed to gestate, the egg will become a chick and then a chicken. That doesn't happen with our omelet, because we kill that life.

That shows how much you don't know. Chickens lay eggs, even when they AREN'T fertilized. Imagine it as the hen's equivalent of a period. The eggs people eat won't hatch.

[AshtrayKitten]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

So is a single human cell.

I'll reiterate if you want to be pedantic: Any cell alone coming from a human being does not constitute human life in the context of the discussion. A zygote does.

That shows how much you don't know. Chickens lay eggs, even when they AREN'T fertilized. Imagine it as the hen's equivalent of a period. The eggs people eat won't hatch.

Not very relevant, but a wonderful factoid indeed.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

I'll reiterate if you want to be pedantic: Any cell alone coming from a human being does not constitute human life in the context of the discussion. A zygote does.

No. A Zygote is a potential human. I'd like to see someone adopt a Zygote.

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Better not waste sperm or eggs the potential for a human is there.

[AshtrayKitten]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

No. A Zygote is a potential human. I'd like to see someone adopt a Zygote.

Perhaps you mean 'potential person' ? Zygote, fetus, infant, teen and adult all fall under the category of human in addition to being alive.

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

Perhaps you mean 'potential person' ? Zygote, fetus, infant, teen and adult all fall under the category of human in addition to being alive.

So does my skin cells.

[AshtrayKitten]

What should have been posted before my edit time ran out due to interruption:


Perhaps you mean 'potential person' ? A zygote, fetus, infant, teen and adult all fall under the category of human in addition to being alive. There is no point in a human being's development when s/he is not alive.

I'll ask, at what point do you believe the cellular mass becomes a human, and is there a point at which abortion is unacceptable?

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

I'll ask, at what point do you believe the cellular mass becomes a human, and is there a point at which abortion is unacceptable?

About 9 months.

[maromi12d3]

Abortion may or may not be murder but a woman should always have the right to abort or not to abort. Fair enough eh?

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by maromi12d3

Abortion may or may not be murder\

Abortion is not a murder since we use a different word for it .
Think how much suffering was spared to this world only if women were free to have abortions through the history , without being called murders or whores , or even beaten just for making the atempt .
(Besides the forced marriages ...)

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

I'll ask, at what point do you believe the cellular mass becomes a human, and is there a point at which abortion is unacceptable?

You've identified the correct question, or at least the closest thing to it that is likely ever to have a place at the table except among deeper thinkers. The problem is that you're doing exactly what you accuse the pro-choice people of - ignoring that question by pretending that it's already settled.

It's not that something is wrong with your argument. It's that you haven't even stated an argument, so there's no case to refute. You simply assert by fiat that a zygote is a person. I think we're entitled to at least some half-baked sophistry and flimsy lies. Hell, we could get that much from George W. Bush.

Simply asserting that a zygote is a person with a greater tone of conviction, or more often, or with a red face or tears in your eyes doesn't help anything.

Meanwhile in the real world, there's no magical line between human and non-human (or perhaps more to the point, person and non-person). So we're going to have to decide arbitrarily - not to say without basis - what operational definition we want to use. But we can't even have that discussion yet, because both sides are clinging to grossly oversimplified views of the issue, and venemously attack anyone trying to introduce common sense or genuine thinking into the picture.

[Godslayer Jillian]

His view is still more correct than pro-choicers who ignore the line of unlife and life.
A sperm and an egg merge. Bam, you have the forty six chromosomes that makes a human.
It seems to be the most logical assumption of when human life begins.

If pro-choicers decide to argue, they're the ones with the burden of proof to place an arbitrary line.

I'm a pro-choicer because I don't believe that human life has any value without interaction. The zygote's still a human, but that in itself has no intrinsic value that supersedes the mother's will.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

His view is still more correct than pro-choicers who ignore the line of unlife and life.
A sperm and an egg merge. Bam, you have the forty six chromosomes that makes a human.
It seems to be the most logical assumption of when human life begins.

If pro-choicers decide to argue, they're the ones with the burden of proof to place an arbitrary line.

I'm a pro-choicer because I don't believe that human life has any value without interaction. The zygote's still a human, but that in itself has no intrinsic value that supersedes the mother's will.

Poppycock. Having a zygote isn't the same as having a baby. There are plenty of factors that could keep it from ever being one.

[Godslayer Jillian]

What's the difference between a zygote and a baby that make the former nonhuman that you can't use about a baby and an adult that make the former nonhuman?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

What's the difference between a zygote and a baby that make the former nonhuman that you can't use about a baby and an adult that make the former nonhuman?

A brain?
Conciousness?
The ability to feel pain?

[Sir Canvas Corpsey]

Humans murder each other all the time just like animals kills each other, funnily enough it's because despite all our evolution and hype about our selves, we're still animals.

Murder is just another way of saying kill but aside from its' meaning it has an intention; trying to help convince us a collective species and community that we're above primal instincts and some higher form than the rest of nature.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

A brain?
Conciousness?
The ability to feel pain?

In addition to:
Legs
Ability to survive outside the body
Arms
Eyes
Ears
Etc...