The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture

[Drake Dun]

Yeah, I thought of mentioning that myself. The implicit suggestion of the original article seems to be that going to church makes you support torture, but the obvious interpretation for me here is that the kind of people who would approve of torture are also the kind of people who are attracted to that type of Christianity, and more observant about their chosen religion.

[HavelockV]

Blackwater1110: No harm done, to be sure. In the future I must be more careful with how I wield academic skills long neglected. *grins*

Humane Pain: Sage advice, sir! My thanks to you.

Despanan: An excellent observation and indeed one that should be addressed.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

See, this is one of those correlation /= causation things that everyone keeps talking about and idiots keep ignoring.

Did you know that surveys show large numbers of people walking outside with wet hair increase the chance of rain?

[voodoowitchdr]

I honestly think that the more time a person spends in church, the more likely they are to allow things the bible shuns...thus the holy wars.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Personally I think the more time a person spends in church, the more likely they are to accept the bible and allow things common decency shuns... thus the holy wars.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by voodoowitchdr

I honestly think that the more time a person spends in church, the more likely they are to allow things the bible shuns...thus the holy wars.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Personally I think the more time a person spends in church, the more likely they are to accept the bible and allow things common decency shuns... thus the holy wars.

[voodoowitchdr]

Picard!!!!!

[Beneath the Shadows]

Oh, never mind, I get it now.

My brain isn't working too good right now.

[Anima_Severem]

Originally Posted by Solumina

People who are naturally fearful and don't care about what happens to others as long as they are safe, these are exactly the same type of people who flock to evangelical churches. It isn't so much that they support torture as it is that they don't really care what it takes to feel safe, they are the same type of people who don't mind giving up civil liberties so that the government can "catch terrorists."

...What the hell kind of people are these?

Anyone who would give up civil liberties for security doesn't deserve either one.

[AngelikDemonik]

Well, did you know that when the sale of ice cream increases so does the amount of r.ape going on?

[Drake Dun]

[blackwater1110]

Originally Posted by Anima_Severem

...What the hell kind of people are these?

Anyone who would give up civil liberties for security doesn't deserve either one.

Thanks, Benjamin Franklin!

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

Well, did you know that when the sale of ice cream increases so does the amount of r.ape going on?

AHA! Then THAT would mean that the ice cream man is a r.apist! Run away, children! Do not be tempted by strange men in multicolored vans brandishing frozen treats, for they mean only to trade snow-cones for sodomy!

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

My brain hurts.

[The Count]

Moving away from rapist ice-cream men.

The survey question itself isn't bias, it's asked quite well and doesn't refer to any favored choice. Their not asking something like "Do you agree that..." or "Would YOU condemn someone..".

The real question we should be asking is just how anonymous the participants in the study were.
People answer more honestly if they believe no one knows their answer. If they think the government might know their answer they might answer the way they think the government wants them to answer.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

So global warming means fewer pirates!
(I LOL'd when I saw the number of pirates on the x axis decreasing, but the slope rising!)

[Godslayer Jillian]

Actually the graph argues for the need for pirates to stop global warming.

[Heretic]

The name of this thread is:

"The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture"

However, the caption for the article is:

"Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful"

Was the purpose of this thread to bash a particular religious affiliation?

Anyway, about the Pew Research Center and their survey. While I have always been impressed with the quality of their research, I am very unhappy about this survey.

First, the sampling size isn't scientifically valid. At just over 700 respondents, none of whom are differentiated from one another by gender, age, education or income level, the margin of error is approximately 4% (notice that they excluded this fact). This margin is too large to place confidence in, especially the first time the survey is conducted (I aced my Stats classes en route to my Journalism degree, btw). Personally, I'm suspicious of surveys with a margin of error over 2% (minimum 2,000 respondents), and never trust one-off surveys. You need to conduct surveys like this over a number of years in order to minimize statistical anomalies and reach more accurate results.

Second, the survey itself is narrow to the point of having no real value:



The Pew research Center claims that this survey "illustrates differences in the views of four major religious traditions in the U.S. about whether torture of suspected terrorists can be justified", yet they list only two, Protestants and Catholics? They also restrict their survey to one particular ethnic group. While this group may represent the majority in these religious traditions, the exclusion of Hispanic and African American groups means that the results are an inherently inaccurate portrayal of religion as a factor in whether an individual supports torture.

Now, to their credit, they seem to recognize this (even if their own statistics do not support this observation). According to the statement they released with these results:

"...statistical analysis that simultaneously examines correlations between views on torture, partisanship, ideology and demographic variables (including religion, education, race, etc.) finds that party and ideology are much better predictors of views on torture than are religion and most other demographic factors..."

This statement, however, only highlights the flaws in the survey.

Lastly, beware of statistics without context. I've seen these results cited in a number of newspaper, magazine, and broadcast news reports. They have all, like the author of this thread, made this survey out to be representative of all people who attend church on a regular basis. Not only is this survey seriously flawed, it only attempts to provide a look at the views of a very narrow segment of the church-going population.

Before being taken in by snappy headlines and jumping to conclusions, take a close look at the scientific validity, accuracy and scope of a survey. Those will typically tell you more about the subject at hand than the journalist reporting will.


- Heretic

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Heretic

Was the purpose of this thread to bash a particular religious affiliation?

Yes, and since Sterrn posted it I assume it also aims to bash Americans.

Thanks for the reasonable, well researched, well-thought out post Heretic.

Unfortunately posts like that have no place on Gnet, Kindly alter it thusly:

OMG gaiz! I HATE CHUrcH pp;ll! Anarky all the waiz!11one.

That's what we like to see around here.

[JCC]

Why are you still here?

[Godslayer Jillian]

When Sternn's inclusion in that post is nothing but personaly mockery for no other reason than it's Stern
And when it is clear that his bullshit "OMG ANARKY" post is directed specifically to the two people that voiced out loud just how much Heretic rocks

Depsanan does nothing but look ridiculous once more. Heretic, pay no attention to him; I'm sure you'll understand why.

[HumanePain]

Wait a minute, WTF??? It isn't valid if they used a different sample size for each religious affiliation, right? I mean, shouldn't they have used the same sample size across each population? 174 Protestants but only 122 Catholics? I know you can still derive the same percentages across the choice of answers but come on, the background "noise" etc. won't be the same, so averaging out the wackos won't be the same.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Heretic

At just over 700 respondents, none of whom are differentiated from one another by gender, age, education or income level, the margin of error is approximately 4% (notice that they excluded this fact). This margin is too large to place confidence in, especially the first time the survey is conducted (I aced my Stats classes en route to my Journalism degree, btw). Personally, I'm suspicious of surveys with a margin of error over 2% (minimum 2,000 respondents)

How did you do that?