Magdelin Laundry

[Versus]

I know you're not so stupid that you can't think of what the difference is.

[Saya]

Pointing out how we perpetuate racism is really really hurtful, you know.

[Versus]

Provocative.

[Acharis]

Originally Posted by Saya

What Versus is saying though is that its not necessarily that its not slavery, its just very uncomfortable coming from a privileged white dude (or any white person) to talk about other white people when they previously show little sensitivity when it comes to racialized terms or oppressions or the opinions of women and PoC.

What I'm saying is that I find it highly suspicious to be suddenly concerned for white women who were exploited when we have a history of not giving a rat's ass when it isn't a white person.

I do give a rats ass.
When there's domestic violence upstairs, I ring the police to make the man realise people are aware of his aggression to his partner, and hold him accountable for his actions. I don't do this because she's a white woman, she's Aboriginal.

When a friend told me there was an illegal brothel opposite us that had trafficked Asian women in the past, I watched it for some time afterwards. When I met someone in a social setting who worked with sex workers organisations, I asked her about it and was relieved to hear it was now a legal one. I still worried about sneaky trafficking though, anything sus and I start doing tip offs.

You probably meant white people in general historically and I'm probably going to be told I'm tokenising, but my point is if I can know about something I don't accept or condone it.


I understand though. There was a media uproar when Jill Meagher was taken off the streets (euphemism), and some people said that it was due to 'Missing White Woman Syndrome'. I think that she also got disproportionate coverage because her assault followed the traditional script that **** culture teaches everyone to expect. Pretty married white lady, local area, stranger in the bushes...

The media reports what people can relate to, and a lot of the time that's through a privileged and overwhelmingly White lens.


However, the Magdalene Laundries are information that I've recently found out about, it happened in my lifetime and I'm pissed that the Catholic church has gotten away with such serious humans rights shenanigans (even for them) until so recently.

It reminds me of history when women were also considered property like cattle, used for labour and had no reproductive rights.

Originally Posted by Saya

To you, because you're that privileged.

Saya, I'd like to stop you there. Much of this information on PoC isn't given't coverage, due to an admitted bias in the media. While it sucks that people aren't informed about issues you care deeply about, think about if information is actually getting to people before you say they just don't care.
Ignorance of these issues is not always due to a malice, laziness, or white privilege on the part of the individual. More lack of that information.

So it's our responsibility to go find out? Great.


I'd also like to talk about privilege. You seem to have assumed that everyone has the same access to information and opportunity to absorb it that you do.


I'm not going to say much, but for years I didn't have access to technology or people that would speak with me and give a wider political context.

My brain space and energy was spent on finding stable housing, preserving my personal safety and negotiating the barriers formed by my own mental illness, and I didn't have consistent access to the technology that carries current information.
I didn't get to partake in further study, so the only reason I can discuss these concepts with you is from outdated feminist literature, my own experience, general reading and self education in the few years since I saved enough for laptop and internet access.

My situation was backwards and extreme, so it's not relevent for most.
But access to information (sometimes requiring access to technology) and the stability to concentrate on that non-essential to survival are pre-requisites to being able to look at the wider issues. Not every member of society has that.

I get that a lot of times people miss the point or don't bother to learn because they have the privilege of not ever having to worry about it.

But I don't call ignorance a privilege. I call it a disadvantage.

[Acharis]

Oh, and on the distinction between Cracker and N***** -
I've seen it said that racism = discrimination + power.

ie. PoC can be rude or discriminatory to white people, but racism comes from the power differential in society and as such affects PoC. I've had this conversation but the other person didn't get it.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Acharis

...More lack of that information.

And why do you think that information isn't out there?

[Acharis]

I already said the media was biased, if that was your point.

I already noted that Saya seems to have studied these areas and move in circles where this information is more readily available.

I've already noted that some people are privileged and smply don't bother learning.

And I've already discussed my own previous barriers to information, and have remedied them.

What do you mean if it wasn't any of those?

[Miss Absynthe]

I mean that white privilege IS the reason that the media is biased, that certain types of information are readily available and other types aren't.. it's because the entire world is set up to hold the white view of things as default setting.

An example of this is that every Australian child is taught about Cook's landing in Botany Bay and claiming of Australia as part of the British Empire, but it's never really mentioned that Cook was under orders that if the land was already inhabited that he shouldn't claim it... this is why Aboriginal people were governed under the Australian Flora and Fauna laws until 1967 when the referendum took place.

Privilege comes into it all in that we don't have to be aware of issues like this because it doesn't affect our lives until we choose to let it have an effect - IF we choose to let it have an affect.

[Acharis]

That's basically what I already said.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Acharis

...and a lot of the time that's through a privileged and overwhelmingly White lens.

...Ignorance of these issues is not always due to a malice, laziness, or white privilege on the part of the individual. More lack of that information.

...I'd also like to talk about privilege. You seem to have assumed that everyone has the same access to information and opportunity to absorb it that you do.

...I get that a lot of times people miss the point or don't bother to learn because they have the privilege of not ever having to worry about it.

But I don't call ignorance a privilege. I call it a disadvantage.

The way that I read what you said was that white privilege is just something that is held by individuals. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

It's not 'a lot of the time' that the media shows information from a white view point - it's all of the time.

White privilege isn't something that is exercised by an individual, to say that holds the implication that if a person isn't exercising it then it doesn't come into play. White privilege is something that exists whether the individual exercises it or is unaware of it.

[Acharis]

I know that privilege is often taken for granted to the point that the bearer is unaware of it. I know that it's systemic, not just individual.

I still don't think the backlash against Despanan for calling the Magdalene Laundries slavery was justified. Protesting one oppression doesn't erase another, it's not a zero sum game with winners and losers.

The disparity of coverage is very problematic though.
The media does show information from a white point of view all the time. That's what I was saying. That the information is filtered before it reaches us, so often we only find out about something when it's done to someone white or somehow particularly sympathetic to current mores.

The women that were previously menaced by Jill Meaghers murderer in the same area were given the brushoff or didn't find it worth the effort of reporting, and we only even found out about those women after Jills disappearance. Same for the murderer's 16 prior counts of ****.

Don't think it's 'not caring until it happens to us', it's 'not knowing until the media deems it worthy of coverage or the majority deems it worthy of outrage'. I can see how missing these things is privilege, but doesn't mean it's wanted or intentional.



It's one of the reasons I joined Gnet, to have an actual discussion with content and learn something.
The leading newspapers and Facebook tend to be mostly dogwhistle politics and 'herp derp emotional statement', and anything with actual content previously had to be read dryly alone with no incentive to reflect or keep thinking about it.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Just because I am not personally affected by the use of a term doesn't make it any less a racial slur.

Maybe if a white dude explains it to you you will finally listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by Acharis

I know that privilege is often taken for granted to the point that the bearer is unaware of it. I know that it's systemic, not just individual.

I still don't think the backlash against Despanan for calling the Magdalene Laundries slavery was justified. Protesting one oppression doesn't erase another, it's not a zero sum game with winners and losers.

Honestly, I don't think so either, and am a little baffled by this thread. I get that it's a racially charged term, but he wasn't using it frivolously or, IMO, inappropriately - I mean, as Alan said, US slavery is only one head of the hydra that is slavery in general. I'm not really around enough to keep up with events around here, so could be there's other stuff I'm not privy to behind the response he received - but, got to admit, in terms of this thread, I don't really see the issue.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Alan

Maybe if a white dude explains it to you you will finally listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

OK, so it's not terribly effective. I never claimed it had the same impact. It is still a disparaging remark based on race. Hm, if only there was some sort of term for doing that.

[Alan]

So if you don't care about actual racism but just that it's a disparaging remark 'based on race', why do you even give a shit about the qualifier that it's based on race?

You're either a very whiny person or a hypocrite trying desperately to rationalize your... whininess.

My bad, you're just whiny.

[Jonathan]

Dude when the hell did I ever say I didn't care about racism? The fact that I'm even mentioning it should suggest otherwise.

Everyone on the politics board is a whiny person.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

could be there's other stuff I'm not privy to behind the response he received - but, got to admit, in terms of this thread, I don't really see the issue.

You hit the nail on the head, there have been other threads where Desp's complete inability to acknowledge his privileges in a meaningful way has very much come into play and lots of nastiness ensued.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Dude when the hell did I ever say I didn't care about racism?

What the hell do you even mean with that question.
Every single thing that comes out of your mouth on this forum is specifically to whine about how racism isn't such a big deal and to subordinate antiracist discussion to your petty and half-assed complaints about how YOU have it worse than anyone else.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Alan

What the hell do you even mean with that question.
Every single thing that comes out of your mouth on this forum is specifically to whine about how racism isn't such a big deal and to subordinate antiracist discussion to your petty and half-assed complaints about how YOU have it worse than anyone else.

That's blatantly false.

First off, systemic or insitutional racism is only one possible manifestation of racism. If I say "I don't think _institutional_ racism is the single largest social ill, I think this other thing actually impacts peoples lives in a stronger negative way" - that is in no way saying racism-full-stop isn't a big deal. I've routinely said any form of racism is shitty. Whether you agree or disagree with my premise, who the fuck cares. Why are you pretending that I am saying things that I am not saying?

Secondly, I've never suggested I have it worse than anyone else. You're literally making that up. Why are you pretending that I am saying things I am not saying?

Come on.

[AshleyO]

I try telling Desp that it's not worth talking about these things on G.net with the G.netters.

The bridge has been burned.


I don't have much to say about this.

Fuck religion, mang. Tsk.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

You hit the nail on the head, there have been other threads where Desp's complete inability to acknowledge his privileges in a meaningful way has very much come into play and lots of nastiness ensued.

Oh fuck you Solumina.

What do you want me to do, write you a fucking list? No. Gnet ain't a confession booth and I'm not Catholic.

[Versus]

Acharia and CuckooTuli; I think what's important right now is not necessarily that you understand the issue, but that you know that there is an issue that you do not understand.

You don't need to know the problem, you need to know that there is a problem.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Oh fuck you Solumina.

What do you want me to do, write you a fucking list? No. Gnet ain't a confession booth and I'm not Catholic.

Maybe you could stuff your mouth with some humble pie and shut the fuck up? Your ego is bringing you down, dude.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Fuck religion, mang. Tsk.

It's not just religion, it's misogyny manifested within religion. Think about it like when we were talking about racism and capitalism in the anger management thread, you know?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

Maybe you could stuff your mouth with some humble pie and shut the fuck up? Your ego is bringing you down, dude.

So it's not really about acknowledging my privilege then, it's about shutting up.

At least your cards are finally on the table.