Why "no kill" and 90% of what P.E.T.A says is bullshit

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Saya

Animals born into a world through artificial insemination, seperated from their mothers at a young age, living only a little while before being packed in a truck and sent to hang upside down while its throat is slit, even on non factory farms this is the reality and its bull to say there is no suffering. Even if you could somehow make the animals happy in their short short lives, you are bringing in a life into the world that cannot sustain it and killing it just for your lust, how is that not wrong? All beings have self preservation in mind, all beings tremble before pain and death, and yet you would impose your want for a unhealthy meal over the will to live of an animal.

Hold on now.
She didn't say there was no suffering. She outright said that they things you mentioned are wrong.

Also--no, not all beings tremble before pain or death.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Saya

Yeah, might be suiting seeing the amount of bad prose of yours we had to sit through as you recounted how the only chick in the world willing to bang you left you one day.

Do you not know what bleeding heart means, or...?

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Should changed the name of this shit hole to Bleedinghearts.net

Sure, why not? They're my favorite flowers.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Should changed the name of this shit hole to Bleedinghearts.net

Or perhaps FUCKOFFDEADMAN.org

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by JCC

Or perhaps FUCKOFFDEADMAN.org

I honestly guffawed at that.

[Pineapple_Juice]

Don't know if I'm the only one who thinks so, but I find it a little oxymoronic to call SLAUGHTER humane.

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Sure, why not? They're my favorite flowers.

Dutchman's Breeches are pretty cool, too :P

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Saya

Animals born into a world through artificial insemination, seperated from their mothers at a young age, living only a little while before being packed in a truck and sent to hang upside down while its throat is slit, even on non factory farms this is the reality and its bull to say there is no suffering.

I live in a rural, agricultural community. There's a beef farm across the road from my house. I see cows every day, and a lot of people at my school farm beef and/or participate in 4H/FFA-type programs.
The cows around here fuck in the field, give birth in the field.. the calves stay for about six months, then weaned. There is no feedlot, only pasture grass and sometimes grain. Hay in the winter.
They are send to the butcher down the road (we buy our meat there) and slaughtered as humanely as possible. I know that bolt guns are used to kill, but it's usually a shotgun. The animals ARE dead before they are bled out.
I don't deny the possibility of suffering, but saying that animals are treated like crap even on non-factory farms is not true.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by korinna5555

I live in a rural, agricultural community. There's a beef farm across the road from my house. I see cows every day, and a lot of people at my school farm beef and/or participate in 4H/FFA-type programs.
The cows around here fuck in the field, give birth in the field.. the calves stay for about six months, then weaned. There is no feedlot, only pasture grass and sometimes grain. Hay in the winter.
They are send to the butcher down the road (we buy our meat there) and slaughtered as humanely as possible. I know that bolt guns are used to kill, but it's usually a shotgun. The animals ARE dead before they are bled out.
I don't deny the possibility of suffering, but saying that animals are treated like crap even on non-factory farms is not true.

You do know that a cow will stay with its mother for all its life if it is allowed, right? Beef cows are an exception to the insemination rule, but a mother seperated from a calf, even at six months still experiences emotional pain, as does the calf. Plus, as Pineapple says, you can butter it up all you want, but its slaughter, needless, harmful, unsustainable slaughter. And a shotgun isn't necessarily humane, it may be more "effective" but that does not mean the cow feels no pain.

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Do you not know what bleeding heart means, or...?

I've actually never heard of the phrase before, I assumed it was similar to playing the world's smallest fiddle, now that I looked it up, yeah, Deadman probably isn't even aware other people or animals have bigger problems.

Hold on now.
She didn't say there was no suffering. She outright said that they things you mentioned are wrong.

Also--no, not all beings tremble before pain or death

No, she just said factory farming is wrong, which would lead to imply that other types of farming is not wrong, when it is. Otherwise she just said "eating meat is not wrong" which isn't an argument at all and so can't be addressed.

Aside from masochists or other exceptions to the rule, I've never seen a cow happily have its throat slit or cry with joy when branded.

[honeythorn]

Seeing as farming and consumption of animals, of some sort is going to continue wether you like it or not, wether you eat them or not, which is the quickest death? A shotgun or bolt gun pierces the brain outright and would cause a brief second of pain/shock before what is pretty much an instant death . Having it's throat slit while still half conscious is slow and painful. The same goes for hunting animals such as deer. A head or heart shot causes so quick a death the animal wouldn't have time to register more than a brief second or two of pain.


You're too quick to condemn all farms as massive factory farms where cattle are crammed into small, spaces and calves stolen from their mothers. Plenty of farms do not operate this way.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Seeing as farming and consumption of animals, of some sort is going to continue wether you like it or not, wether you eat them or not, which is the quickest death? A shotgun or bolt gun pierces the brain outright and would cause a brief second of pain/shock before what is pretty much an instant death . Having it's throat slit while still half conscious is slow and painful. The same goes for hunting animals such as deer. A head or heart shot causes so quick a death the animal wouldn't have time to register more than a brief second or two of pain.


You're too quick to condemn all farms as massive factory farms where cattle are crammed into small, spaces and calves stolen from their mothers. Plenty of farms do not operate this way.

Racism and sexism will always exist, doesn't mean I have to condone it, even in "smaller" degrees, I'd rather see no pain done to an animal instead of some pain as opposed to a lot of pain.

You mean there's farms where the calves can grow up with their mothers and live their natural lives in a matriarchal herd, until they get too old and the farmer comes like the sweet reaper and takes them away to a sweet sleepy death?

[Xombie]

You are one of the most annoying vegans ever.

[Saya]

While I do question why replying to messages addressed to me on a forum and arguing for abolition is annoying, when I could be out doing things like, lets say splashing blood on people who wear things that may or may not be leather or fur or I could be kicking up a fuss at work whenever someone sits down at the lunch table with meat (which would be hilarious just to see everyone's reaction, very few friends in real life have taken notice that I'm vegan), I'm okay with being annoying because I'd rather be annoying than be a hypocritical apathetic glutton who values taste buds over the lives of sentient beings.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Xombie

You are one of the most annoying vegans ever.

You'd rather have her ignoring posts that are directed at Saya?

[Bonquisha Brown]

Originally Posted by JCC

What a fantastic argument, Bonquisha.

And what an equally stunning rebuttal.

[Solumina]

Saya where are these "natural" social dynamics for cows coming from? They are an unnatural animal so it isn't as though we can look to their free peers as for what is natural. I'm not saying the info is wrong but I'm really curious as to where is comes from.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Bonquisha Brown

And what an equally stunning rebuttal.

What were you expecting?


"Yah there is"


?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Saya where are these "natural" social dynamics for cows coming from? They are an unnatural animal so it isn't as though we can look to their free peers as for what is natural. I'm not saying the info is wrong but I'm really curious as to where is comes from.

Wild bovine (like gaur) have a matriarchal structure where the females in particular never leave their mothers until their mothers death, as adults a male may leave to find his own herd, or stay and respect the dominance of a bigger male. While the males can't necessarily leave, this has also been observed on rescue farms, if you're interested Farm Sanctuary by Gene Baur has wonderful anecdotal information on the social lives of farm animals, its a pretty big organization that has sheltered thousands of animals, I found the section on cows particularly fascinating. A few months ago their cow matriarch, Maya, who was one of the first animals they ever rescued, died at the age of twenty two:
http://www.farmsanctuary.org/rescue/memory/maya.html

It is also a known problem on dairy farms of older dairy cows trying to steal another dairy cow's calf.

Farmers also are aware of these social dynamics, however its difficult to find a source from farming sites as most just want to know what benefits them, such as "mob mixing" (breaking the social dynamic of a herd by seperating or mixing with another) is a bad idea as it hurts the quality of the meat they get:
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agricultur...dcb-cattle-mgt

[JCC]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Seeing as farming and consumption of animals, of some sort is going to continue wether you like it or not, wether you eat them or not, which is the quickest death?

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Nobody's saying "Kill them the longer way, if you're going to go against my beliefs, you might as well do it more the painful way." Saya's just saying that she's against slaughter. You have this annoying habit of reverting to this fatalistic, nagging "Well, it will happen anyway." Yeah, it will. So what? Veganism is an individual philosophy, it's not invalidated if the guy down the street doesn't agree.

[Bonquisha Brown]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

What were you expecting?


"Yah there is"


?

Obviously you were too damn lazy to read the original post, as JCC cut a lot of it out.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Bonquisha Brown

Obviously you were too damn lazy to read the original post, as JCC cut a lot of it out.

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

First of all, how fucking judgmental are you to believe that is the most logical inference?
Could it be that you're actually wrong?

Second, JCC cut 'a lot of it out'? He cut out one fucking sentence. He cut out 18 words.

And third, in that miserly bunch of words he 'cut out', you didn't say shit about why there's nothing wrong with eating meat.

You said "there's nothing wrong with eating meat."
I say "yeah there is"
Your turn.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

This is the very essence of the retardation of progress. As long as people refuse to do something simply because, "It will happen anyway" or "I won't change anything" we will never progress much as a society.

If you change, then you have made a change in the world.

There are no big changes, only many little changes.

[Pineapple_Juice]

Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

So yeah.

mmssgstill2shrt

[NachtSorcier]

*wanders in after eating a hamburger*

Much as I despise West Virginia, one good thing about living here is that there are plenty of farms that haven't been subsidized. Admittedly, we still get some of our meat from Wal-Mart, but you know what? We're poor. We have to do what we have to do. I'd rather not give my money to the devil but we really don't have much of a choice.

On the other hand, we do get some of our beef and eggs from farmers that we know, farmers who don't mistreat their animals or force unnecessary suffering on them.

I'm all for animals being treated as humanely as possible, but to say that they're equal to humans in every way is bullshit. Sure, some animals have venom and stingers and horns and all kinds of cool natural weapons while we have none because we would obliterate our entire existence with them, but that's about as far as it goes. It is my belief that non-human animals are more "pure" than humans only in that they have retained their basic instincts - they know what their job on this earth is and they do it, whereas we have not grown into our supposed higher brains, as it were - the human race as a whole is confused as to what its job is.

"Equality" is a is a dangerous term to throw around. There are too many degrees of equality to keep track of. Do we all deserve to live without unnecessary suffering? Sure. Is nature obligated to give us lives which are free of suffering? No. There is suffering in the world and there will always be.

If you think carnivorism in any form is wrong, try explaining that to a lion or a shark. If you wish to rebuke that argument by saying, "Well, we as humans are aware of our choices, so we can choose to be herbivores," then you must admit that we are greater than non-humans. Having that awareness is what makes us the greater specie.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

I'm all for animals being treated as humanely as possible, but to say that they're equal to humans in every way is bullshit.

Who in the flying fuck has ever said that? I don't even mean on this forum, I mean throughout history, has anyone been so dim-witted to openly imply such a thing?

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

Sure, some animals have venom and stingers and horns and all kinds of cool natural weapons while we have none because we would obliterate our entire existence with them, but that's about as far as it goes. It is my belief that non-human animals are more "pure" than humans only in that they have retained their basic instincts - they know what their job on this earth is and they do it, whereas we have not grown into our supposed higher brains, as it were - the human race as a whole is confused as to what its job is.

Human and non-human animal psychology is more similar than you give credit for, but even if it wasn't, what would that prove?

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

"Equality" is a is a dangerous term to throw around. There are too many degrees of equality to keep track of. Do we all deserve to live without unnecessary suffering? Sure. Is nature obligated to give us lives which are free of suffering? No. There is suffering in the world and there will always be.

If nature built factory farms then we wouldn't be discussing this, would we?

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

If you think carnivorism in any form is wrong, try explaining that to a lion or a shark. If you wish to rebuke that argument by saying, "Well, we as humans are aware of our choices, so we can choose to be herbivores," then you must admit that we are greater than non-humans. Having that awareness is what makes us the greater species.

That's stupid. I'll assume that you see murder as wrong; would you see that stance as invalidated if a murderer went against your own belief? Besides which, if we were a superior species because of our ability to choose compassion, why would renouncing that compassion and 'lowering' ourselves to the level of carnivorous non-human animals be a sensible thing to do?