President

[anti_everything]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Heh...even the cartoon is more of an American that Disfunction.

But..I thought he's Canadian. So why should he be 'American' anyways? Hell, I live in America and I despise being patriotic in any way, shape, or form. (especially with the stupid fucker that we've got for president right now)

[Disfunction]

'Fraid not EPS...

[AlKilyu]

Canada's health care system is sub par AND on the verge of collapsing. It's not working.

Not saying it's perfect here either, and doesneed to be changed.

Kerry's plan will not work, just as any Democratic plan to...well an Independent friend of EPS, Manimal and me said it best when he said that the Democratic style is to throw money at every problem and worry about paying for it later. To go Kerry's way, heh he is not gonna cover his promises, he can't, is not fesible. Just not. Also consider that the Republicans still run Congress, so whatever "plan" he throws out there is gonna get shot down JUST LIKE CLINTON'S PLAN DID!!!

The ideal of universal health care is great. It's just not possible. Not yet.

TStone: Juat curious, what kind of health plan is your work offering that f's you that bad?

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

2) Yes, Al, there are assholes in many groups. Thank you for addressing your behaviour in a very apt and to the point fashion.

My apologies to Al for this comment. I respect him a great deal despite such unjust statements. Thus explaining the mention at the end of my comparison between Bushitler... Something about BP and Al shredding what I'd said.... So once more, my apologies Al, my words were unwarranted.

Also, to the Canada's healthcare system statement, it varies on a provincial basis.

[AlKilyu]

Thanks. You can't help it, you're a Canuck.

Insurance companies as a whole go unchecked. Take auto-insurance: they can disriminate by age and sex, but no one ever questions it.

Oh and again, I don't like Kerry, now in retrospect Clinton, but I'd never compare either to Hitler. I don't know anyone who I'd do that to. Except maybe Stalin. He killed millions of his own kind, and I have actually met Russians who can name relatives they have lost to that horrid system...

[Disfunction]

Whole reason why the comparison came about was that Wolfmoon was praising him for getting stuff done...

[Jane13]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

I don't know anyone who I'd do that to. Except maybe Stalin. He killed millions of his own kind, and I have actually met Russians who can name relatives they have lost to that horrid system...

My social studies teacher (Who's parents were from Russia, sent to a Nazi labor camp durring WWII, and then came to America) last year said that Stalin was worse that Hitler... but he also said that being "Impeached" is just going through a trial, and that it DOESN'T mean the president isn't president anymore :? Anyway, they are both horrible. Back to regularly scheduled programming.

[Disfunction]

Stalin killed nearly twice as many people as Hitler... Nuff said.

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by Jane13

My social studies teacher (Who's parents were from Russia, sent to a Nazi labor camp durring WWII, and then came to America) last year said that Stalin was worse that Hitler... but he also said that being "Impeached" is just going through a trial, and that it DOESN'T mean the president isn't president anymore :? Anyway, they are both horrible. Back to regularly scheduled programming.

Heh... Jane: Impeachment *is* just going through the trial. President Clinton *was* impeached, and he still finished his term.

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Whole reason why the comparison came about was that Wolfmoon was praising him for getting stuff done...

Still don't see what's wrong with someone getting things done rather than saying."I'm completely for it!",then telling the next person,"I'm completely agin it!"

If that's how Kerry'll 'gain us allies',I know a few dicks here in the states that need suckin!

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by ice

I haven't seen the insubordination by the 19 "Specialists" brought up in here yet.

I'd like to know what you all think..

I myself, think they should get their arses court-martialed for insubordination, and if possible, being idiots.. Why would they even enlist, if, as one girl said "it's too dangerous"?

In any other war, they'd be toast.

Did any Yanks in WWII in, let's say Bostogne, call their mommies on a cell phone and cry about it being cold and dangerous?? Huh? No?
Ok.. how about the Nazis?
When they were pushed back on the Russian front, and were stuck trying to cross the Dneiper river, they were being literally mowed down by Russian Ilyushin fighter planes..
If *any*, and I mean *ANY* of those Nazis complained to their mommies and asked them to raise hell in the media, they'd be shot. They'd be dead.
If you don't beleive me, read about it. Pick up a book.

Erm. I went off there.

-So, what do y'all think?

This is my point exactly,Ice!

Way the hell would anyone sign up if they're scared of even the barest possibilities of going into combat.Fuckin cowards!!

Dishonorable discharge is the least of what they deserve!Did lives depend on them getting suppllies to them?They normally do.So,they esentially told someone,"hey fuck you!I'm not risking my life to get you something you need"

They betrayed people who depended on them!

I wish they still hung people for that shit.

Kinda reminds me of that hypocritacal bitch from Farenheit,who encouraged her son to join the armed forces.Then the bitch has the gall to blame Bush for his death.'Scuse me?Who admittedly talked her own son into joining the military?

Buncha dumbasses.

Thanks for reminding me Ice.

:twisted:

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Still don't see what's wrong with someone getting things done rather than saying."I'm completely for it!",then telling the next person,"I'm completely agin it!"

If that's how Kerry'll 'gain us allies',I know a few dicks here in the states that need suckin!

I never said that there was anything wrong with getting things done save in only getting things done. If it's good things then I support, if it's bad, I don't. Getting things done itself isn't something I support.

[Deadhymn]

so you support apathy and idleness then?

[OmmadDawn]

What you guys keep missing is that the Grand Strategy for invading Iraq was horrible.

Grand Strategy is the end result that you want. Many a large conflict has been a loss for the military winner, because the Grand Strategy wasn't viable, or wasn't even considered. Look at Germany in the 20th Century for the prime example of that.

Bush, bless his tiny little brain, wants to push through the neo-con plan for building the Temple of Jerusalem so that the Apocalypse can happen. For some reason, that means we have to control the entire middle east. Presumably, Muslims will blow up any Temple of Jerusalem if they get a chance? I don't know why they don't pick some little tin shack and say "This is your Temple of Jerusalem. Now launch the nukes and send us all the Heaven as you dream of doing." Bush does as he's told, and he thought Master Cheney was giving him the keys to making Armageddon come true as the Bible says it will.

Cheney, no blessings to that devil in human flesh, saw opportunities for profiteering. America pays the bill, Halliburton gets the check. Doesn't matter whether anything good comes out of it or not. (Factoid: 27 cents out of every dollar, of the billions we've sent for aid, is going to actual aid to Iraq. The rest is being lost to waste and fraud.) So he's been the one pulling strings and distorting the data on WMDs to convince everyone we HAD to attack IMMEDIATELY. And, yeah, there's no proof Cheney is getting money from Halliburton. But only a fool thinks he isn't. Obviously it's not being done in a way that's easy to trace, that's assuming any one is even trying.

America's grand strategy was supposed to be to create a stable and less-threatening Iraq. Supposedly, we were to build a 'democracy' there. That's the picture we were sold on (Not me, I thought it was a crock from the beginning).

Factoid 2: 60% Shiite population. Say it, slowly.

I never heard you Republicans addressing that simple little factoid. Why the silence? You're all so loud and really overrepresented considering your tiny numbers on this site, Have a lot to say about everything except that. That seems pretty odd, to me.

You feel safer with Iraq-Iran pulling together? Alternatively, won't you feel like shit when the puppet government shows that it represents no one except the neo-cons in America? (Maybe already...it's already been shown that the Iraq puppet's first speech as an "independent governing body" was written by the U.S. White House)

Do you really think there's a third option?

You probably won't feel like shit, but you really should, if you are really Americans who care about Democracy. Which is something else I doubt highly. Right-wingers care about power, not freedom, not opportunity for all. Which is wierd, because the people on this site will never benefit from all this, only the very rich bastards who are the neo-cons' friends, ever will.

You got a big thrill out of the invasion, it was wonderful, expensive entertainment. You didn't care about grand strategy or democracy or freedom or anything else, but that the shock and awe thing kicked ass. You could imagine Schwarzeneggar in there, spraying bullets down Saddam's throat, and slaughtering faceless, evil henchmen.

Never mind that WE'VE slaughtered more than THREE times the number of people who died in the World Trade Center attack, in a country that wasn't involved, just on the suspicion that maybe their boss MIGHT decide to get involved later on, and MIGHT be THINKING of building stuff to help it get done.


I'm also disappointed that you guys weren't able to show me that Democrats are pulling antidemocratic and unconstitutional tricks the Republicans are, to try to cheat people of their votes. I guess it really is just a Republican practice, then.


The prime reason why voting for Kerry is essential, even though he's still too far right for me, and supported so many of the wrong things the Republicans promoted, he doesn't care about Halliburton's profits. He won't make insane conditions for international cooperation in order to keep an iron hand on the flow of profit from our taxes to this vomitous beast of a corporation.

He actually will have a chance to do something to make things better over there, some damage control on what we've done to ourselves. It's still a bad situation for the U.S. no matter what we do now. Even a saint won't be able to fix it so that we'll be better off than we were before we invaded. Kerry will still only have the choice of either keeping a puppet government over there, or creating a huge new Shiite nation.

However, if Bush gets reelected it will only get much worse. Cheney wants us over there forever, feeding Halliburton the cash. Other nations will continue to not support us, and we'll continue to have our hand in that monkey trap until we collapse.

[TeapotScar]

Amen, Ommad. I agree with a good *most* of the things you said.

Stuff to back up stuff you said:

We're losing coalition support for the war in Iraq. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/ma...QUESTIONS.html

George W. Bush: "You forgot about Poland!" ... no... The Prime Minister of Poland says "Forget about this BULLSHIT"

We've slaughtered more than three times the number of Iraqis than people who died in the World Trade Center. Yeah, we definitely have: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

And basically, I'd just like to completely agree with you on the "We're screwed either way." statment. We can't pull out, because we fucked up the entire country. Staying in stretches our troops so far we can't concentrate on the *REAL* danger- Al-Qaeda. The war on Iraq helped Al-Qaeda recruitment: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3756650.stm

We're all doomed.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Call me friggin schizophrenic but this REMAINS justification for me, even though it was quietly ignored..

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

Among the MANY other reasons why removing Sadaam was justified, this reason ALONE is enough for me!!!

Women and Children in Iraq Mass Grave

A MASS grave being excavated in Iraq's "killing fields" has yielded evidence that the country's forces executed women and children under dictator Saddam Hussein.

US-led investigators have located nine trenches near the northern town of Hatra containing at least 300 bodies. They are believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.

The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.

The scientific exhumation is aimed at helping to convict Saddam of crimes against humanity.

"It is my personal opinion that this is a killing field," said Greg Kehoe, a US lawyer appointed by the White House to work with the Iraqi Special Tribunal. "Someone used this field on significant occasions over time to take bodies up there, and to take people up there and execute them.

"I've been doing grave sites for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this, women and children executed for no apparent reason," added Mr Kehoe, who spent five years in the Balkans. "It's a perfect place for execution."

The victims are believed to be minority Kurds killed during 1987-88. One trench contains only women and children, apparently killed by small firearms. Another contains only men, apparently killed by automatic gunfire.

Mr Kehoe said the women and children had been taken from their villages with their belongings, including pots and pans, shot - often in the back of the head - then bulldozed into the trench.

Some of the mothers died still holding their children. One young boy still held a ball in his tiny arms.

International organisations estimate more than 300,000 people died under Saddam's 24-year rule and Iraq's Human Rights ministry has identified 40 possible mass graves countrywide.


Authorities hope careful investigations of the sites will provide enough evidence to convict Saddam and other senior members of his regime, now in US detention, of crimes against humanity.

Investigators have excavated smaller mass graves before but never, they say, with such a forensic focus, aimed at gathering clear evidence of who was responsible.

Saddam is expected to face trial for crimes against humanity next year, but no timetable or details of the charges have yet been announced. During his reign, Saddam pushed hundreds of thousands of Arabs into Kurdish areas to force the locals out.

Human Rights Watch estimates that more than 50,000 Kurds were killed during a 1988 campaign against them.

http://www.aina.org/news/2004101391024.htm

This monster was and IS just as evil as Milosevic, Hitler, Mussolini, and many other genocidal madmen.

We may have had other items on the agenda, but the mass murder of innocent men, women and children IS justification ENOUGH. Just the fact that some of these women died clutching the bodies of their babies, some of them UNBORN makes me mind-numbingly angry as a mother.

He had to be stopped, and I hope the Iraqi people get an opportunity to serve him with some of the same justice he served them with.

[MrMaelstrom]

Mass graves from the 80's?

You mean the 80's when Iraq was considered U.S.'s strategic ally?

There were also mass graves in Chile, on account of Pinochet. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I'll bet my arse there are mass graves in many other places we're not willing to go and look.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Mass graves from the 80's?

You mean the 80's when Iraq was considered U.S.'s strategic ally?

Whether it was 1980 or not..

How does that make Sadaam's acts any less genocidal?

These were still innocent men, women, and children, born and UNBORN, who were slaughtered like sheep for the simple reason that they were Kurdish..

Genocide has no expiration date..

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

Genocide has no expiration date..

Thank God allies who look the other way do.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Thank God allies who look the other way do.

I feel bad for you.

We go in and fix things and you blame an administration LOOONG since gone. Don't make a broad brush stroke by saying "Well they were Republicans" because that won't fly.

OmmadDawn you sorry sack of shit. I am not calling you that because you disagree with my politics, you have really turned into a sorry sack of shit.

Your posts are nothing more than furvered rants. You get all worked up and ramble senselessly.

Worst part is you have taken politics, which people who even post in this thread are tiring of, and moved your "agenda" to other posts. You made a crack at Planewalker in a thread that had NOTHING TO DO with politics. You even went so far as to spread your useless shit in a thread dedicated to Gingebreadwench, who, lst I checked, HAS NEVER MADE HER POLITICS PUBLIC.

Settle the fuck down. If you must spew your feces, keep it in the apropriate threads.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

We go in and fix things and you blame an administration LOOONG since gone. Don't make a broad brush stroke by saying "Well they were Republicans" because that won't fly.

A bit early to say things are fixed. They're far from fixed fromwhere I'm standing.

An alliance doesn't end with a change of administration. Portugal and England have been allies for about 800 years and the treaty still stands.

Oh yeah, Dawn: calm down. You're making it personal and there's really no need.

IRAE FUROR BREVIS EST

Anger is a short-lived madness.

[AlKilyu]

Mael you responded before I could go back and edit that.

My "pity" is that there is good being done, and it is getting overlooked, which isn't fair to those making an effort.

My point is better late than never.

The same goes for North Korea. Those poor people are suffering...I can't even imagine how bad they have it, and we are essentially turning our backs on them.

Because we are fucked either way.

If we go in and help them, "You're not the world's police, it was for oil (someone is bound to say that), not our business..."

If we don't, "Why go into Iraq? Why not N. Korea? Or Iran? They are far worse."

And even I cringed at the "Axis of Evil" line when it was made, but oddly enough the Democrats mention them constantly...so...what was wrong about that statement?

My point is don't overlook the good that is being done. The Iraqi Olympic team can lose their events without fear of torture when they get back.

[MrMaelstrom]

I think the only way to solve some things is to do it as a whole. Globally. Through the UN.

I won't get into the partizan thing here. I have criticisms for the past 4 administrations.

But I think this time, it's not only the democrats who are hostage to Bush policies practiced in the Middle East.

I believe republicans are also hostage to this situation, their party (which I always regarded with contempt and suspicion) being besmirched like this.

"Axis of Evil" didn't scare me. "with us or against us" did. Only in light of what were recent events could that phrase be excused.

[OmmadDawn]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Worst part is you have taken politics, which people who even post in this thread are tiring of, and moved your "agenda" to other posts. You made a crack at Planewalker in a thread that had NOTHING TO DO with politics. You even went so far as to spread your useless shit in a thread dedicated to Gingebreadwench, who, lst I checked, HAS NEVER MADE HER POLITICS PUBLIC.

I don't expect you to like my political posts, and it's up to you whether to like me personally or not, but I draw the line at you accusing me of things I didn't do, or severely exaggerating the things I did do.


My statement to Planewalker was well-intentioned. I clearly didn't "make a crack" at Planewalker. He mentioned he was in Iraq in his posts. It was entirely reasonable for me to be impressed by that. I merely pointed out in neutral terms that some people might try to browbeat him about the "situation". I don't want anyone to browbeat him or Gypsy. I think they have enough to deal with as it is.

Gingerbreadwench turned 18, which is old enough for three seminal things: legal sex, the draft, and drinking beer. I made a joke of seeming to refer to the first thing, and finished it with the other two things. The image in my mind and the context I used it in was not political in any way. It is in fact, very telling to me that you thought it was. Kind of, protesting too much I doth think.

Then WOLFMOON says "only if the Dems win" and I made a short reply to that. Maybe I should have ignored it. Where's the post where you scream at WolfMoon for saying the political thing in G'b'wench's happy thread? I can't find it anywhere...

I understand I've brought some bad karma upon myself, and earned some bile, by purposely over-generalizing what the conservatives on this site think about things. So I'm willing to make some concessions -- if you ask for any that seem reasonable to me. I also plan to keep an open mind about you, myself, unless you continue to distort my innocent postings this way.

So cool your jets a little bit, please.

________________________
Helga: Have you done this sort of thing before?
Erik: Me? Of course! I've been looting and pillaging up and down the coast.
Helga: (looking skeptical) Looting and pillaging, eh?
Erik: (on the defensive) Yes.
Helga: What about the ******?
Erik: Shut up.
Helga: It's obvious you haven't ***** anyone in your life.
Erik: Sh!

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by Deadhymn

so you support apathy and idleness then?

Apathy is a lack of caring, and idleness would be doing nothing at all.

I support doing things that benefit the people that we are claiming to help. Sometimes inaction is better than choosing a course of action, because often times the chosen course can dig a bigger hole than the one you were trying to fix. Thank you for playing The Stupid Response Game! You won the grand prize by not listening to what I was saying.