Pro-Gun Anti-Gun.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Let me ask you something. Why do you believe the Constitution is anarchist and makes a small government when all its articles except the amendments are nothing but a detailing of the State's permanence?

Your talk about the constitution having to do shit with freedom is laughable.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

The Bill of Rights Wasn't tacked on as an after thought,but as a Check and Balance for the Citizens against a Government with too much control.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

The Constitution came from Anarchy I didn't say that it was an Anarchist document.

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Which is why I'm glad that you are where you are and have no bearing on what rights others should and should not have in this country.

You mistake me from someone who would want to have a bearing on what rights people like you should have in your country. I was merely pointing out my thoughts on what a constitution can become: an ultimate source of tyranny.

Oh, and just a small comparison for a concerned American citizen at ye olde yokel from the Antipodes:

Transparency International Corruption Perception Index:

New Zealand = 3 with 9.4

United States of America = 20 with 7.2

[Deadmanwalking_05]

The possibility of perversion does exist,but that goes with any form of Government.

That possibility is avoided though as long as people remember that others have the same rights.

Those that ignore the rights of others,get what they deserve.

[Tam Li Hua]

I tend to think that, with the way things are going under this new administration, that we are very well on our way to a more socialist-type government, to be honest.

There's just far too many folks who would rather have the government make their decisions than deciding things for themselves.

I. E., our government's already been corrupted, because that's what happens to people when they gain that much power.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

And they can continue to be part of that Government.

I won't.

[Tam Li Hua]

Deadman: That's fine; you can move to a different country that isn't socialist when the time comes. =) Or, if you insist on protesting instead, make it a peaceful protest, please.

Me personally, I would probably just take my husband and move to Jamaica or something. XD XD XD

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Me personally, I would probably just take my husband and move to Jamaica or something. XD XD XD

Because living in one of the worst homophobic countries in the Americas, with one of the highest murder rates in the world is so much better than living in a semi-socialist country where everyone can get free health care...?

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Saya

Because living in one of the worst homophobic countries in the Americas, with one of the highest murder rates in the world is so much better than living in a semi-socialist country where everyone can get free health care...?

That was a beautiful retort, Saya.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Saya

Because living in one of the worst homophobic countries in the Americas, with one of the highest murder rates in the world is so much better than living in a semi-socialist country where everyone can get free health care...?

Ok, maybe not Jamaica then. Perhaps Singapore or Hong Kong instead.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

The Bill of Rights Wasn't tacked on as an after thought,but as a Check and Balance for the Citizens against a Government with too much control.

Ok, You're talking about a National Constitution. It's a document of how the nation can and will be run, yeah?

Having representatives (less than a tiny fucking percent of the total population) meet up and write out how the country will run and how EVERYONE will live, even in the BAREST BONES, is not anarchist by nature. They're bloody governing other god damn people. I'm half awake and half sober and I still think your arguments are shit-tacular. Not ONLY did the constitution NOT come out of anarchism, they founders were UNanarchistic. The fact they made a federal government, shit, ANY government. How about the electoral-fuck-college? How about the fact the freedoms were itemized (meaning there is inherently a limit).

How about you think of a good argument and stop asking Bill O'Reily to think of your snappy comebacks.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ok, maybe not Jamaica then. Perhaps Singapore or Hong Kong instead.

Hong Kong, who's democracy is compromised by the Chinese government (who, I don't know if you know this, has a bit of a reputation of being a fucking totalitarian state) but also has that oh so scary healthcare, and Signapore where the Jehovah Witness church is outlawed, caning is a common punishment, and male homosexuality is outlawed with a punishment of time in jail.

Like really, I can understand arguing for and against things like universal health care and welfare, but you still have it amazingly lucky compared to the countries you apparently want to retreat to. I'm sure you can suck it up and get a free trip to the doctor when you need it rather than when you can afford it, rather than enjoy your privilege as a foreigner in another country where others suffer horribly because of their controlling governments.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Saya

Hong Kong, who's democracy is compromised by the Chinese government (who, I don't know if you know this, has a bit of a reputation of being a fucking totalitarian state) but also has that oh so scary healthcare, and Signapore where the Jehovah Witness church is outlawed, caning is a common punishment, and male homosexuality is outlawed with a punishment of time in jail.

I've visited both, and neither are nearly as terrible as you make them out to be. I lived in China proper for three years, so I think I'd be more than okay in Hong Kong. I did some charity work in Singapore for 6 weeks back in college, and the same goes for it; not really scared to move there. [Then again, I don't plan on going around spray-painting cars, am not a JW, and am not a gay man, so I think I'd be okay.

I -do- like chewing gum, though. I'd probably miss that a little.]

Like really, I can understand arguing for and against things like universal health care and welfare, but you still have it amazingly lucky compared to the countries you apparently want to retreat to. I'm sure you can suck it up and get a free trip to the doctor when you need it rather than when you can afford it, rather than enjoy your privilege as a foreigner in another country where others suffer horribly because of their controlling governments.

No country is perfect, and I've already done a lot of foreign travel and living. It's not quite the horror experience you may think it is. lol

That being said, I'm well aware of the freedoms available in the States. That doesn't make me like it any better, though.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I've visited both, and neither are nearly as terrible as you make them out to be. I lived in China proper for three years, so I think I'd be more than okay in Hong Kong. I did some charity work in Singapore for 6 weeks back in college, and the same goes for it; not really scared to move there. [Then again, I don't plan on going around spray-painting cars, am not a JW, and am not a gay man, so I think I'd be okay.

I -do- like chewing gum, though. I'd probably miss that a little.]

So because it doesn't affect you, you don't care, whereas unless you're making tons of money socialism will only work in your favour? Regardless of the fact that things like universal healthcare are just the government taking a little tiny step to the left, its not full blown socialism and probably won't go that way for a very long time, its just that for some reason socialism is a bad word so people love to throw it around.

No country is perfect, and I've already done a lot of foreign travel and living. It's not quite the horror experience you may think it is. lol

That being said, I'm well aware of the freedoms available in the States. That doesn't make me like it any better, though.

They aren't horrible if you're white and foreign, but its still less free than it would be in the States, and if you're going to move on the principal of socialism, you're still going to find things that are objectionable in any country you go to, and in the case of Hong Kong you're going to find a similar set up anyway, with no guns and healthcare.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

That's why it wouldn't bother me in the Least to stand and fight with everything I have left.

That's why I'm staying,there is no free land (To me that is) left in the world.

and I would rather make my own choice instead of have it made for me.

Those "People" that don't want to live by their own decisions,are Sheep of the first order,and probably wouldn't know how to function in a truely Free society.

(Just my Opinion)

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Saya

So because it doesn't affect you, you don't care, whereas unless you're making tons of money socialism will only work in your favour? Regardless of the fact that things like universal healthcare are just the government taking a little tiny step to the left, its not full blown socialism and probably won't go that way for a very long time, its just that for some reason socialism is a bad word so people love to throw it around.

Hm. That's a good point.

Truth is, I just don't enjoy the States, whether or not it goes socialist. I prefer to travel to exotic places and experience new and different things. The socialist thing just weirds me out, since the U. S. government has supposedly been against it for so long.

They aren't horrible if you're white and foreign, but its still less free than it would be in the States, and if you're going to move on the principal of socialism, you're still going to find things that are objectionable in any country you go to, and in the case of Hong Kong you're going to find a similar set up anyway, with no guns and healthcare.

I know it's less free. Trust me, I know.. But, East Asia's always appealed to me more than the States. I can't really explain it; it just has.

In fact, if it weren't for some very....unusual events [culture shock notwithstanding], I most likely would have never left.

[Godslayer Jillian]

So you're just pulling words out of your ass for no actual argument, huh?

Which reminds me I never posted my response:

The Bill of Rights Wasn't tacked on as an after thought,but as a Check and Balance for the Citizens against a Government with too much control.

Yes it was, to the first. No it wasn't, to the second. When was the last time you took a history class?
The Bill of Rights was tacked in to the Constitution because of constant demands from the Anti-Federalists who were against the Constitution. They knew that the constitution, being only a text that detailed the perpetuation of the state and its branches, had nothing that would protect individual rights.
So fuck you and your Constitution fetish. Not only is your opinion stupid, but it's blatantly and factually wrong and ignorant.

The Constitution came from Anarchy I didn't say that it was an Anarchist document.

Ah yes, my mistake. The fact that the Constitution was written by people who according to you were "Anarchists to the Crown or English Parliament" does not imply that the 'anarchist' drafters would draft an 'anarchist' paper.
But what's the point of this? By that same logic the Constitution is humanist because it was written by humans and evolutionist because it's the only way we would have come about.

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Hm. That's a good point.

Truth is, I just don't enjoy the States, whether or not it goes socialist. I prefer to travel to exotic places and experience new and different things. The socialist thing just weirds me out, since the U. S. government has supposedly been against it for so long.

So what you're trying to say is that you don't find a slight shift towards socialism all that bad, you just have no understanding of what socialism is so the word creeps you out? And because the rich ruling class, those with the most to lose with more socialist policies, as opposed to benefiting off the capitalist policies that let them r*ape the rest of the country, have been against it so long is your reasoning behind why the word creeps you out?

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Onyx

So what you're trying to say is that you don't find a slight shift towards socialism all that bad, you just have no understanding of what socialism is so the word creeps you out? And because the rich ruling class, those with the most to lose with more socialist policies, as opposed to benefiting off the capitalist policies that let them r*ape the rest of the country, have been against it so long is your reasoning behind why the word creeps you out?

It's like talking to the kelp that sticks to your legs at the beach. Just ignore it and pray it washes away.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

So you're just pulling words out of your ass for no actual argument, huh?

Which reminds me I never posted my response:
Yes it was, to the first. No it wasn't, to the second. When was the last time you took a history class?
The Bill of Rights was tacked in to the Constitution because of constant demands from the Anti-Federalists who were against the Constitution. They knew that the constitution, being only a text that detailed the perpetuation of the state and its branches, had nothing that would protect individual rights.
So fuck you and your Constitution fetish. Not only is your opinion stupid, but it's blatantly and factually wrong and ignorant.

Ah yes, my mistake. The fact that the Constitution was written by people who according to you were "Anarchists to the Crown or English Parliament" does not imply that the 'anarchist' drafters would draft an 'anarchist' paper.
But what's the point of this? By that same logic the Constitution is humanist because it was written by humans and evolutionist because it's the only way we would have come about.

What you are completely failing to grasp Jill,is the fact that maybe the framers of the constitution and Bill Of Rights had seen Anarchy in all it's blood riddled glory on the battlefields that were now their front yards (Respectively,I'm not that far off),and just maybe they came up with a better way in those two Documents.

The Constitution is a big frame work for a big government,but it's the usage of the B.O.R. that limits the Government growing out of control,instead of questioning what was said we went along with it,until I think it's time to use the B.O.R. (In as peaceful a way as possible) to end what's currently going on.

Or to lose it and by doing so accept any fate that a Jack Booted Thug (J.B.T.) feels is necessary.

I'll stand and try to use the B.O.R. in as peaceful a way as I can.

But

If/When the peaceful way fails to work,they will have one tough son of a bitch to try and kill.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Onyx

So what you're trying to say is that you don't find a slight shift towards socialism all that bad, you just have no understanding of what socialism is so the word creeps you out? And because the rich ruling class, those with the most to lose with more socialist policies, as opposed to benefiting off the capitalist policies that let them r*ape the rest of the country, have been against it so long is your reasoning behind why the word creeps you out?

I don't like the idea of the U. S. government making my choices for me. It's just far too corrupt, and I don't trust it.

Ideally, I would take my husband to a deserted island and make our own private getaway where no one else would be allowed unless we let them in.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

It's like talking to the kelp that sticks to your legs at the beach. Just ignore it and pray it washes away.

Indeed. Yet, the more you play with the kelp, the more of it sticks to you.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I don't like the idea of the U. S. government making my choices for me. It's just far too corrupt, and I don't trust it.

You'd rather have a private insurance company making your choices for you? And you'd rather go to an even more socialized country that means they 'make more choices for you'? Your argument is fucking stupid.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You'd rather have a private insurance company making your choices for you? And you'd rather go to an even more socialized country that means they 'make more choices for you'? Your argument is fucking stupid.

You're attacking someone else based only on their ideas and beliefs,yet you try and paint me in that light.

You have done far more to show your true character than I ever could.

Thanks for showing your true colors,I knew you would sooner or later.