What does gender mean to you?

[Reiko]

As most of you already heard there has been debate whether Caster Semenya is man or woman?

But, this topic has been in my mind for years. Could there be possibility that more of the world will accept more than 2 genders? I mean, places like india have 3 or more.

In science some people are born with an extra chromosome and sometimes for males the Y chromosome does not activate and the child is born female.

Explain to me what gender means to you? I would really like to know your thoughts.

[Ophelia's Snorkel]

It almost sounds like your question is conflating sex and gender. Sex, barring chromosomal anomalies and the like, is usually easy to determine in a scientific sense. Gender, however, is a social construct, and one that has a multitude of connotations depending on culture, age, and even historical period. I consider it virtually useless and sometimes quite damaging.

[Delkaetre]

Sex- physical, and binary unless you are born unusual or undergo deliberate surgery to change things.
Gender- the whole mental construct, including more than just male and female. Gods know if my mind could choose my body, it wouldn't have gone with female. It wouldn't have gone with male either (bonus- no pregnancy, but countered by less of the lovely female curve). If my physical sex could fit my amorphous mental gender, I'd be Other.

[Tam Li Hua]

In psychology, there's a clear difference between Sex and Gender, as Delkaetre has already explained. =)

I don't know who Caster Semenya is, though..

[Delkaetre]

Caster Semenya is a South African runner who got an exceptional time in the women's 200m race. She has a flat chest and slightly masculine facial features, but rather than assuming that was a result of her training (which is common), there was a panic that she may actually be a man.

It's all been handled with horrible insensitivity, and the impression I get is that even if she does have an androgen problem or is midly intersex, she's been raised and spent all her life living as a female- she's sure she's female, and so's her family, but if the sporting authorities discover that she has male characteristics beyond certain allowable birth defects, she may be stripped of her gold medal.

[Saya]

Yeah they're putting her under a lot of tests just because she shaved some time since last year, you can read about it here: http://www.theroot.com/views/semenya...d-sex-struggle

Between 1967 and 1999 however female Olympians always had to go under these tests and prove that they were women, men did not have to prove that they were men.

What I'm wondering is if it does turn out she's intersex, will they allow her to compete with men? Or will she be barred from both? I feel terrible for her.

[Solumina]

As long as she is female, even if she has an androgen disorder like CAH (which her case seems to fit very well) then she should still be able to compete as a woman, if she is a true hermaphrodite or has had gender reassignment then I see a problem.


As for the original topic there are multiple types of gender:
Chromosomal gender-is based on your chromosomes and cannot be changed, XX for female and XY for male

Gonadal gender-based on the presence of ovaries and/or testes and cannot be changed (I'm not really sure what you count as if you have them removed, this one is a bit fuzzy)

Prenatal hormonal gender-essentially what hormones you were exposed to in the womb and cannot be changed after birth (duh)

External gender appearance-what bits you have and this can change

Social gender-the gender role that one adopts in life, this can be changed and is what is most commonly meant when one says gender


Gender is a rather interesting topic and well it is just so unexplored, misunderstood, and undefined, I just love delving into it.

[CountVonCount]

As a kid I was going to be Ariel, the Little Mermaid, when I grew up. When I realized I couldn't really grow a tail and became dissatisfied at the notion of wearing a costume tail I settled on 'just a girl...' When I finally realized I was going to grow up a boy as I was born male, I became distraught. I didn't really 'get it' for years, believing there would be a way to become a girl, but when I was old enough to do the research I vowed I would force myself to be content as a boy as a sex change is a life long process and unless you have the millions for cosmetic surgery, it's obivous within a 4ft radius. Having a sex reassignment surgery is nothing more than inverting your dick or aggrandizing your clit.

The third gender in those societies usual refers to men who dress and act as females and are never given the same rights or respect as other males/females. In some Native American societies however, it's normal to have a spirit guide(I can't remember if they're called guides or just similar to) of the opposite sex as I believe they are ancient spirits from ancestory and/or heritage. Here in the US most people consider transexuals to be drag queens are dykes, or they're just given the good ol fag button. I'm fond of the term Queer as it encompasses more than just sexual orientation or gender identity.

It's a 'no-duh' that, when talking about gender identity, you have to take into account society and social settings, the media, gender roles, family roles, and sometimes sexual orientation. It's like wishing you were blonde. You can say you're blonde if your a light brunette/dirty blonde or you can just dye it if you're really a red head, but it's all relative to what you've seen in life and how you percieve things. Like anything in life it's simple if you listen carefully...is that as redunant as it sounds when talking about such a (generally) unexplored subject?

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by CountVonCount

a sex change is a life long process and unless you have the millions for cosmetic surgery, it's obivous within a 4ft radius. Having a sex reassignment surgery is nothing more than inverting your dick or aggrandizing your clit.

Have you even looked into gender reassignment? It isn't a life long process, it is an approximately two year process, one year minimum living in your new gender (some doctors start the hormone process now, some do 6 months to a full year of hormone therapy after the first year). The hormones will help shape your body so you don't need much surgery other than the actual gender reassignment and breast augmentation (either implants or removal) and if you are diagnosed with gender identity disorder (which you seem to be a fairly clear case of) then your insurance should cover the surgery (in some cases including the breast augmentation but not usually anything else) and hormone therapy. Being uninsured it is a bit more costly but not anymore so than comparably intensive procedures.

It isn't the procedure that it was a decade ago, things are a lot better, more realistic, less risky, and less expensive. You may want to give it another look.

[Duane]

Do they tweak your vocal chords as well?

[Solumina]

The hormones will quite noticeably alter your voice so there is no reason to directly alter your vocal cords.

[CountVonCount]

Female to male hormone patients will drop a few octaves but I think the change is less in male to females as you can't reverse puberty.

I'm still as bitter about my physical sex as I was at age 5, if it's not bibbidy-bobbidy-booed then it's not good enough. Hormones will do wonders but even so, they can only smooth so many edges and unless you were born with genes for an andgrogenous body (a boy with booty, full lips, narrow shoulders opposed to say me, 6'2", broad shoulders, narrow hips, little booty and lips that have body only when puckered) even after years of hormone therapy, you're body's natural sex will betray you.
I know it's clear that I say this without being able to remove my own beliefs of personal apperance but I do understand that a painted face doesn't make you anymore of a woman than a corset and heels, and that you don't have to be a natural born female to think that. It's just so depressing to see some of these people look so hagard and inbetween and to see everyone around them with that look on their face of 'I do not understand' and yet there they are with those smiles that look trademarked by Hallmark. Is it really because the inability of my own bleeding heart? Could it be my own channeled fear of rejection if I did go through a reassignment? Or is it simply my addiction to glamour and my own set beliefs and ideals of female beauty that make me feel they're so alienated from everyone else? I think it's amazing if someone can feel so comfortable in their skin, but I feel like as a transperson they would be...smart enough to sacrifice a bit of their wants to gain more comfort. It's not conforming, but blending, and in this case I think it would be heinous to consider it a cowardice aproach instead of a means to sit yourself more comfortably in your surroundings. I keep coming back my inability to understand how they could feel good day to day. They can't all be so oblivious to the world, and confidence sure as hell can't be injected dose by dose.

[transsexual transylvania]

Gender, to me, is a social construct, unnecessary on the internet and only necessary in real life as a way of dissecting privilege.

If society's notions of gender were not so rigid, people who don't fit into either wouldn't be so stigmatized.

[Jonathan]

It means I am able to lift heavy things, open stuck jars, and be good at math.

I deleted my horribly insensitive diatribe, but will let the record show that I never liked Hedwig and consider it rather hamfisted, even when viewed with the limited expectations appropriate for rock opera.

[Starke von Oben]

Originally Posted by Reiko

In science some people are born with an extra chromosome and sometimes for males the Y chromosome does not activate and the child is born female.

In science?

[Solumina]

Hm...I guess I kind of skipped that bit. The child may be born androgynous or with female genitalia but the child would not be female if they have XY chromosomes, what can happen is that they are not properly exposed to androgens in the womb and therefore have what looks to be female genitalia but once they hit puberty they produce the necessary androgens for their body to alter and they become clearly male. I have never heard of a case where an XY developed as if they were a normal female.

[head in a wicker basket]

It is curious to me in this day and time does gender matter more or less. I know that in the roman times gender was nothing. Simply a part not a whole. The orgy's of the time are the stuff of legend. Looking back over different times and places in the world it goes from highly excepted to a death sentence. Yet today in the so called educated society it is again such a taboo! I do not get that. Why are people so afraid of sexuality in any form? I have friends that are gay I have friends that are bi and then there are those of us who really do not see what genitals the person they love has but only the person. So if any of you can explain why people hate others based on sexuality please do! I want to understand this hate because I think the way through hate is true understanding of the view that creates said hate!

[JCC]

Originally Posted by head in a wicker basket

I know that in the roman times gender was nothing.

Are you fucking kidding?

[Starke von Oben]

Originally Posted by head in a wicker basket

I know that in the roman times gender was nothing.

You know that?

Evidence?

Originally Posted by CountVonCount

As a kid I was going to be Ariel, the Little Mermaid, when I grew up. When I realized I couldn't really grow a tail and became dissatisfied at the notion of wearing a costume tail I settled on 'just a girl...'

LMFAO, LOL, ROFL, etc.

[head in a wicker basket]

OK fine as I did not live in the roman times. I gather this information from research that yes I do trust (letters from the time and such)

[JCC]

Originally Posted by head in a wicker basket

OK fine as I did not live in the roman times. I gather this information from research that yes I do trust (letters from the time and such)

If you read a letter from the Roman times claiming that gender was inconsequential in their society then you read a letter written by an incredibly forward-thinking troll that died chuckling about the impressionable cunt that's going to flaunt it like well-documented historical fact.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by head in a wicker basket

OK fine as I did not live in the roman times. I gather this information from research that yes I do trust (letters from the time and such)

Would you care to give us a better source than "letters for the time and such"? Keeping them in the original Latin is fine, there are more than a handful of people here who know the language.

[Starke von Oben]

Originally Posted by head in a wicker basket

OK fine as I did not live in the roman times. I gather this information from research that yes I do trust (letters from the time and such)

"I gather this information from research that yes I do trust (letters from the time and such".

What letters exactly?

Reductio ad absurdum my friend.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by JCC

If you read a letter from the Roman times claiming that gender was inconsequential in their society then you read a letter written by an incredibly forward-thinking troll that died chuckling about the impressionable cunt that's going to flaunt it like well-documented historical fact.

JCC, I fucking love that. Beautiful.

[Solumina]

Hey Starke, go post an intro before anyone else notices that you haven't made one, some people get rather uppity about that kind of thing.