Are Post-modern (white) Goths conformist?

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Solumina

WAAAAAAAAAH! WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO ABUSED!

The problem isn't white people actively holding other people down, the problem is that WASPS generally have life so much easier than other races.

And you can wave the Irish around as an example all you want, that's not going to change anything.

[Saya]

The hatred for Irishmen and also those white Russians probably stem far more from xenophobia than racism.

Anecdotally, we all probably felt discriminated against sometime in our lives. Here Inuit are just as racist as white people and I kinda get the feeling that they're more passionate about it, when I was a kid we were warned not to go into Inuit communities or we might get attacked. But I can't feel justified in going home, snuggling up to my white privilege, knowing statistically I'm more likely to unfairly have a much better life, and crying over the fact that someone said something to me. Haters are gonna hate, but the odds aren't stacked against me, and a lot of that has to do with the colour of my skin. And I really can't feel justified in saying ****** to show how enlightened and beyond racism I am.

[Mr.Doobie]

Also, forgot to mention this...

Yah, I'm having fun and hoping all the race related threads will be removed. They bug me.

Yes, we should all stop talking about race immediately because you're uncomfortable facing your privilege.

[Saya]

Catch is our longest running troll, after a while you learn to just have your eyes glaze over when you come to one of her posts.

[KissMeDeadly]

YOu know I get that my reply added nothing to the argument, simply because I"m saying it's a pointless argument to get in. I'm not denying that white people have privilege and I'm not denying that that is wrong, what I'm saying is it's about time to stop bitching and arguing about who has it worse and just work to make it all different, perhaps even equal.

Not trusting whitey isn't going to help that.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly

YOu know I get that my reply added nothing to the argument, simply because I"m saying it's a pointless argument to get in. I'm not denying that white people have privilege and I'm not denying that that is wrong, what I'm saying is it's about time to stop bitching and arguing about who has it worse and just work to make it all different, perhaps even equal.

Not trusting whitey isn't going to help that.

Nobody has that argument. A few trolls made some posts and most people get that they were trolling.

Racism in general, however, which is what you addressed, is not a worthless discussion. No one is saying to not trust whitey, what I am saying is that white people have privilege. We can probably use the privilege to destroy it, in fact, but we're not going to get anywhere if we don't learn how to recognize it and have discourse about it.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

when I was a kid we were warned not to go into Inuit communities or we might get attacked. But I can't feel justified in going home, snuggling up to my white privilege, knowing statistically I'm more likely to unfairly have a much better life, and crying over the fact that someone said something to me.

I never said that you should go cry over anything that anyone says to you, but that doesn't make it right for someone to discriminate against you for your skin color. I find it really sad that when I say racism is more than just black and white and that all forms of racism are terrible other people just seem concerned with saying that white people should just suck it up because we are statistically more successful.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I never said that you should go cry over anything that anyone says to you, but that doesn't make it right for someone to discriminate against you for your skin color. I find it really sad that when I say racism is more than just black and white and that all forms of racism are terrible other people just seem concerned with saying that white people should just suck it up because we are statistically more successful.

Oh fuck you.

You're like those Christians who claim there's a "war on Christmas" and go crying "discrimination" at the faintest sight of secularization.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I never said that you should go cry over anything that anyone says to you, but that doesn't make it right for someone to discriminate against you for your skin color. I find it really sad that when I say racism is more than just black and white and that all forms of racism are terrible other people just seem concerned with saying that white people should just suck it up because we are statistically more successful.

Please keep in mind inititally I was talking to KMD who said we shouldn't even discuss racism. All forms of racism is terrible, yes, however, the group of white people in Canada and the US who suffer seriously from racism is a lot smaller than other races, and not only because we're more likely to be successful but we benefit from racism, whether intentionally or not.

It kinda reminds me of when I argue about sexism and people get stuck on the fact that women can be sexist too. Yes, we can be, and its bad that way too, but men still have privilege and benefit from sexism in ways that women suffer for. That doesn't mean sexism isn't bad when it happens to men but we can't act like we suffer from sexism in the exact same ways. They can't help that they benefit, and it doesn't mean that they can't help and its awesome when they do. Its not about laying blame or saying anything goes against one group because their privileged, its simply acknowledging that there's a huge difference in the levels of discrimination and how they affect them.

[Catch]

Doesn't Marxism also have something about Communism too. It seems like the race example was just pointing to who would do specialized jobs better.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

not only because we're more likely to be successful but we benefit from racism, whether intentionally or not.

We also benefit from racism against whites, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt somebody. Black people get called “oreo” or “snowflake” for using a large vocabulary, dressing professionally, and embracing academia, when the greatest aid to overcoming poverty and improve your socioeconomic status is education that kind of attitude can do a hell of a lot of damage.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Solumina

We also benefit from racism against whites, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt somebody. Black people get called “oreo” or “snowflake” for using a large vocabulary, dressing professionally, and embracing academia, when the greatest aid to overcoming poverty and improve your socioeconomic status is education that kind of attitude can do a hell of a lot of damage.

... and that's racist against whites, how?

[Solumina]

You really can't figure that out?

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Solumina

You really can't figure that out?

What I see is a problem within the black community, not black people thriving off of racism against whites.

But while you're going to continue to deny that white people have privilege and that non-WASPS don't consistently get the short end of the stick, you may find some good debate techniques in here...

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

[Saya]

I never said our benefit from racism doesn't hurt somebody. It absolutely does. It just isn't always intentional on our part. For example, if I get a job because the only other person who applied was a scary Arab, I might not know about it and I'm not to blame. But I did benefit from racism, and it certainly hurt somebody. Its also not my individual fault that the Inuit were forced into a way of life and its difficult to overcome that in many communities, so not many of them go to university, so there's less people to compete with here. I benefit from their poverty in that way too. Politicians benefit from making empty promises to them, or throw scholarships to them but force them out of their communities if they want to get their high school diploma, so its useless and few take advantage of it.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Doobie

What I see is a problem within the black community, not black people thriving off of racism against whites.

Um…yeah. I was saying how black people's racism against whites can hurt black people.


Saya I get what you're saying, I just think that all forms of racism should be given equal footing when you are discussing them, to allow one form of racism because it isn't as bad or as harmful as other forms is hypocritical and disingenuous in a conversation that needs to be open and honest if any progress is to be made.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Um…yeah. I was saying how black people's racism against whites can hurt black people.


Saya I get what you're saying, I just think that all forms of racism should be given equal footing when you are discussing them, to allow one form of racism because it isn't as bad or as harmful as other forms is hypocritical and disingenuous in a conversation that needs to be open and honest if any progress is to be made.

Ok.

However, I believe things are more complex than just "all discrimination in all forms is equally bad no matter what". For example, I have more of a problem with the legacy of racism that has kept blacks at the bottom of the social food-chain for decades, than the rich white businessman who is upset because some black homeless guy called him "honky". I hope you're not one of those people, but believe it or not, people like that exist (just look at the Men's Rights Movement for gads of examples of clueless, over-privileged whining.)

Anyway, race is a very complicated topic. The example you gave of blacks being racist against educated blacks is more complicated than blacks just being prejudiced against whites and "white" behaviors. Why do blacks distrust whites? Maybe it's because of the century+ of slavery and institutionalized racism? Another problem, why is education, eloquence, and intelligence associated with being "white"? So this "racism against whites" is caused at the root by the legacy of white racism against blacks, and prevailing racist cultural attitudes that white people are smarter.

[Saya]

^Word.

Its also helpful to remember that racism isn't just what goes on at an invidual level, its institutional and a lot bigger than that, and whites sit comfortably on the top of the hierarchy. Yeah, all racism is bad when it happens, but when creating dialogue about racism we can't forget the history of racism in North America and how it plays out in a certain group's favour. There's a huge danger of ignoring white privilege when we simply say, "well, everyone is racist."

[Alan]

Solumina, your example of Irish discrimination is still an example of racism.
You talk about how we shouldn't focus on racism being just about whites but you're doing precisely that. My complaint of the others is that they didn't point this out before. You do know that Irish people were considered blacks, right?
Race literally has nothing to do with color. Race is a social construct, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here.

[Catch]

Originally Posted by Alan

Solumina, your example of Irish discrimination is still an example of racism.
You talk about how we shouldn't focus on racism being just about whites but you're doing precisely that. My complaint of the others is that they didn't point this out before. You do know that Irish people were considered blacks, right?
Race literally has nothing to do with color. Race is a social construct, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here.

Everything is very Clear! If you thought about it for just a few seconds. maybe. There is no easy cure for any society.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Mr.Doobie

I have more of a problem with the legacy of racism that has kept blacks at the bottom of the social food-chain for decades, than the rich white businessman who is upset because some black homeless guy called him "honky". I hope you're not one of those people, but believe it or not, people like that exist (just look at the Men's Rights Movement for gads of examples of clueless, over-privileged whining.)

Oh I know that those people exist I just more of the type of person who hates the fact that my high school had a "strict, zero-tolerance" policy on racism but the kid who called me a fucking paddy in class only got in trouble for cursing.

I will admit that some forms of racism are more damaging, but I won't say that racism against any one group is more damaging than against any other group. Overt, hate speak type racism can be really hurtful but they don't do a lot of meaningful damage, like the homeless guy calling the business man a "honky" it may hurt or it may just be brushed aside as something that was said by a crazy homeless person, but I think the same is true of a white homeless person calling a black business man an equally offensive term. Voter discrimination tactics on the other hand are extremely damaging and yes they are more frequently used against blacks, by nature they are essentially impossibly to be implemented by a minority but that doesn't make it any less damaging when they are used in an area where the majority is black (and for the record no, I don't think that Ike Brown did anything significantly worse than is common among white southern Republicans but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong).

That point also goes to people who say that white privilege has to be taken into consideration when talking about racism. Nationally the US and Canada are predominantly white and white people hold most of the power, but there are plenty of organizations and local jurisdictions where that isn't the case. I'm not saying that white privilege should be completely ignored, but it shouldn't be taken as a given in any and all situations and it shouldn't be something that people can hide behind to justify their own ignorance and hate.

Originally Posted by Alan

You talk about how we shouldn't focus on racism being just about whites but you're doing precisely that.

That isn't what I'm saying, I'm saying that all racism should be dealt with, others (and I don't just mean on here) have this idea that the only racism that matters, or that should be dealt with is when white people are racist. I just want people to move past that idea so I was giving examples that fall outside of that.

Originally Posted by Alan

You do know that Irish people were considered blacks, right?

I've heard the Irish called "the blacks of Europe" but never that they were considered blacks, as for "No Irish Need Apply" there were many places willing to hire black who had those signs so even if historically people did consider them black something else was going on. I've also heard the term "black Irish" but not in a context where "black" has anything to do with African Americans. I mean, yes, they were thrown in with the blacks way back in the day as far as how they were treated and weren't thought of as white but they weren't really thought of as black, they were looked at as Irish, kind of like how Italians weren't thought of as white but you still wouldn't say they were black, but that is kind of besides the point as now most people do throw the Irish in as one of the various subsets of "white people".

Originally Posted by Alan

Race literally has nothing to do with color. Race is a social construct, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here.

Race may not have to do with color, I never really argued that it does but racism does have something to do with color, at least in the context of how society treats it. Think of racial slurs, some are branded as the most hateful, despicable, unacceptable words that exist, others are free to be thrown around and are as socially acceptable as "shit" or "damn" and think of which words fall in which category. "Jive turkey" and "porch monkey" are both really stupid yet one is okay, even funny, yet the other is very much not. "Paddy" is okay but not "******" even though they both hold just as much hate. "Wop" is somehow not as bad as "wetback", despite the similarity in the terms origins. A lot of people say that those words aren't as bad because they aren't really used anymore so they don't matter as much but I've been called or heard someone be called each of those terms, the bad and the less bad, the reactions of the people they are directed towards aren't all that different.

Going beyond just specific terms the way that anti-discrimination policies are carried out is far from colorblind. There was actually a somewhat interesting episode of Andy Richter Controls the Universe that did a pretty good job of addressing this, I mean it wasn't exactly a stunning example of social commentary but it did show something that is usually overlooked. A black man reports Andy to HR for being racist and the HR lady gets all flustered and starts talking about how completely unacceptable that is until someone (I think it was Andy but could have been the black guy) says it wasn't because he is black but because he is Irish. The HR lady just kind of goes "Oh" and doesn't really know what to do, or even if something should be done. It is a tv show and things weren't totally taken seriously but it is still something that happens and it was nice to see some commentary on atypical racism without people bitching about how someone just needs to suck it up. A more real life example is the New Haven Firefighter case, if things had happened in reverse and the white firefighters had been the ones to overwhelmingly do poorly it wouldn't even be a question if throwing the test scores away was wrong and yet it is something that had to go all the way to the US Supreme Court.

In a discussion about racism you really can't say that race is a social construct as though that makes it not matter because social constructs shape culture. Plus if we could get everyone to accept that race is just a social construct then we wouldn't need to be talking about racism cuz it wouldn't happen, too bad we would just be switching to talking about cultural discrimination and classism (although to be fair those are what most honest talks about racism usually end up focusing on).

[Alan]

Wanna know how to find out if you've never been particularly damaged by racism?
you see the issue of racism as merely an interpersonal issue and not an institutional one.

[Saya]

Race as a social construction works well with when you get an Irish slur against you, you're white but they latch on a difference.

What we are saying is that in a discussion about racism in America, white privilege is a big part of it. Not saying other racism doesn't exist, but institutionally there is a HUGE advantage to being white. In school, I never had to learn about the history of Africa, it was the history of Europe and the history of white people coming to Canada, everything else goes into Ethnic Studies. I can pretty well ignore ethnic studies and minority writings and suffer no consequences. Most people I see in the media are white, despite the fact that Canada has a huge visible minority population (In Toronto, white people make up only 48% of the population). Most people in power are white. White, Canada born is the norm, everything else is a deviation from that norm.

It is acceptable to say that overt racism is a thing of the past and we have no obligation to help minorities enter a level playing field. Since laws no longer reflect racism, we have no obligation. White privilege is safe to deny. We have newscasters such as Bill O'Reilly who do deny this, we have new casters bemoaning the fact that one day Hispanics will outnumber us, and there are no consequences.





I've been called slurs like Jew-nose or squaw (I'm not Jewish and I have no Native ancestry that I know of, but I got mistaken for some reason in high school), and it hurt, but overall the racism that has been in my life has not defined my life. I don't get scared that I might not get a job or I might not be able to rent an apartment or that security in a building will follow me around because of the colour of my skin. Newf or Newfie aren't considered as bad as ******, there is a history and some people still take offense, but ultimately I'm white even if I'm a Newf and that gets me by fine.

And I find it interesting that you're suggesting that slurs against white people are more acceptable than slurs against non-whites, when Lady Gaga just came out with a song that said something along the lines that "Its okay if you're a Chola or a Orient.", and its inspirational.

[Solumina]

Gaga has been slammed for that song so I'm really not sure what your point is with that.

Again I want to say that I don't feel like I have had to deal with excessive amounts of discrimination. I've have a fairly privileged life, I'm not exactly on easy street but I'm getting by and I had a lot of opportunities provided by my parents. Not all white kids have those privileges, even WASPs are found on the wrong side of the tracks. Those are the people I'm worried about here, not me, but I haven't lived their lives so I can't tell you everything that they have been through, I can just tell you that when I have been the victim of racism it was treated as a fucking joke, I'm a cute little white girl so it couldn't have been serious. If people had addressed it as a valid problem then it would have just been that one person doing one racist act but that didn't happen, ever, every time was treated like “oh okay they shouldn't have yelled at you" or "they shouldn't have hit you" or "they shouldn't have withheld that information that your club was required to have" the reason for the action was never addressed the fact that all of those things were racially motivated was just swept aside and ignored. I’m not some poor, barely educated kid whose parents struggled to put food on the table, I’m the well educated daughter of two wealthy people who have some very powerful contacts, I don’t have to worry about how I’m going to make ends meet. If those things happened to me can we really all be so naive as to believe that it doesn’t happen to poor disenfranchised white kids or do you all think that just being white makes it easier to grow up in poverty?

Not as a cop out or anything but I'm starting to get a bit tired, my mind isn't at it's best and I'm sure that isn't going to get better as my shift drags on so this is my last post in here for the day. I'm more than willing to pick this up again tomorrow.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

or do you all think that just being white makes it easier to grow up in poverty?

Actually yeah, it does.
What makes it so horrible is the horribleness of poverty, nor the horribleness of 'racism towards whites' for poor whites.