Goth...

Wormboy · 08-29-2007, 01:54 PM

Here's a question, well not really, it's a topic. What is goth? I want to see if people can explain it, discuss it, debate it, and so on, without turning into a group of bad tempered idiots. So go nuts

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 02:01 PM

Glares*

A subculture launched from a genre of music and supported by fashion and aesthetics. Bands like Bauhaus, Dead Can Dance, and Sexgang Children. Kind of all you need to know. It's an umbrella term, in the end. Really all you need to know, like I said. And in its' simplest form.

Of course, there's so much more. But that's the outline.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Rae Ven Rae · 08-29-2007, 02:01 PM

well, I think Goth is actually an outlook you kinda are born with--like, I was goth before I knew what Goth was--I was in my teens before I met others who dressed felt and acted like I did. I think the culture is an extension of that outlook, and can encompass a myriad of looks, music, and expression so long is the core is progressive thought, open minded exploration, and the fearless ability to accept death as fate and not an evil or bad thing in and of itself.

In my view a person doesn't necessarily have to adopt the Gothic dress or music to be goth per se--Johnny Cash is an example.

Like a girl who is introspective, creative, intelligent and understands the hypocrisy of the world around her could dress preppy--but in my mind she is more goth than someone who wears dark clothes for the rebelliousness of it all and couldn't have a deep thought to save her life..

KontanKarite · 08-29-2007, 02:06 PM

...Goth is not in our gene pool. Goth is not a divine calling of a darker appreciation of life. GOTH is not a mental condition.

Sorry, Rae Ven Rae, but I disagree. With your definition, anyone who is eccentric is goth and that just doesn't work.

Goth is a style of music and is REAL damn good friends with Industrial. A goth is a fan of goth music.

One who dresses in all black with spikes and chains, listens to Heavy metal, or Nu Metal, is NOT a goth. FACT.

Beneath the Shadows · 08-29-2007, 02:09 PM

Goth is Goth.

Ooh.

Apathy's_Child · 08-29-2007, 02:10 PM

What is Goth?

Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves. In a nutshell, Goth is very much like 70s Punk with a brain and good manners. (In other words, it shares the underlying feeling of disgust and seperation from normal everyday culture that the 70s Punks espoused, but expresses its alienation and disenchantment with modern society and it's values in a more intelligent and less destructive manner.) The label Goth itself is very much a descriptive reference to the literary genre and architectural style both of which characterize and evoke the mood and to a certain degree, mindset that is generally idealized by modern Goth as a cultural group.

How do I become Goth?

I hate to break it to you, but Goth is not something you can just learn. Gothic people grew up that way. Most people do not have the genuine sense of wonder, creativity, talent, open-mindedness, and appreciation of the duality of existence, nor of themselves and their abilities that makes a person genuinely Goth. While some of these things can be learned over the course of years, most of it can only be emulated. To emulate something strongly implies that the action is neither original nor genuine. That is just not Goth.

How do I know if I'm Goth?

This is a VASTLY more reasonable question. It's sort of odd and sad at the same time that a lot of actual Goths don't know that they are. This is unfortunately the work of massive media stereotyping and misinformation from ignorant but rather noisy wanna-bees. It seems that the bulk of available information on Goth comes from those two sources. Never mind that.

If most (10 or more) of the following statements are true, it is VERY likely that you are Goth. If the first statement is false, you aren't Goth. No, not even if all 16 of the rest are true. Of course, you would be readily accepted and most welcome amongst Goths for your strength of individuality and ability to appreciate the culture in general and themselves in particular.

You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)
Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange
You like museums and cultural centers
You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes
You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either
You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds
You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)
You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV
You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know
You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you
You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers
You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own
You don't just reject something because you don't understand it
You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like
You are not afraid of the unknown
You are not afraid of the dark
You are afraid of mediocrity
Laura Lemay says that to be Goth I have to be angsty and wear a lot of black. Is this true?

NO. Black and angst are not necessary to be Goth. True Goth defies stereotyping and does not adhere to dress codes. Too much angst or other negative emotion stifles a person's ability to learn, think, and create. Most actual Goths are psychologically pretty well-adjusted people. They just have a different set of cultural and social blueprints than your average person. Ms. Lemay knows a lot more about web authoring than she does about Goth, even if she refuses to practice good web design on her own personal site. But she DID get one thing right when she said,"Try not to take yourselves so seriously." Granted, that's a little out of context, but it's good advice just the same.

So, this brings up a whole new can of worms...the most common tidbits of juicy misinformation about Goth. In almost two decades of watching people's perceptions of Goth, I have found that never has there been so much inaccurate information as there is now. It's time to break out the hammer and start banging.

Let's take a look at the most commonly distributed misinformation about Goth, shall we?

Ten Gothic Stereotypes We All Love To Repeat

All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.
Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.
All Goths listen to the same music.
All Goths are fixated on death.
All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.
Goth came from the hippie movement.
Goths don't laugh except to mock others.
Goths all have tattoos and piercings.
Goths always wear a lot of makeup.
Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.

From http://www.fehq.org/public/whatgoth.htm

To all the people who said it's a music preference and nothing else - I don't agree. To me it seems more like a preoccupation with the dark side of life, INCLUDING music, but also literature and ideas, philosophies and, sure, sometimes dress. I don't think you can say it's just one thing, the original 70s subculture may have been based around music but that's not all there is to it. I used to listen to The Cure and Bauhaus (I hate them now) but I've never considered myself a goth.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 02:11 PM

G_G I have to say to a degree I disagree Kontan, one can look like they're among our subculture with fashion, and even listen to the music. But that, for the most part, leads to the assumption that we all limit ourselves from other genres of music.

If it's only a genre of music, what about our aesthetics? I don't deny that there are plenty of goth influences dating back to 20s, but the music was the launch of our subculture. Plus, we all have our intreptations.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Rae Ven Rae · 08-29-2007, 02:15 PM

Also--I think a person can be born with a, shall we say, prediliciton (sp?) to be drawn to certain things--like, why would I LIKE nearly all things "Gothic", well before I even knew there was a movement for it?

And didn't William Gibson coin the term Goth in one of his cyber punk novels (Nueromancer I think...)

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 02:19 PM

Gibson? Well, relating to our culture the term goth was used to describe a fan of Sexgang Children.

Think of it this way-
A genre of literature with brillant ideals, brought by the nostalgia of ancient periods. Then, in the a hip blast of the fresh antipop punk music of the 70s, all of that is modernised with goth. Almost the sounds of gothic literature.

Gibson is just famous in our community, for the most part. Andi Sexgang and UK Decay are apart of the actual creation (along with Siouxsie and the Banshees). The influences are a similar but different reference.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Underwater Ophelia · 08-29-2007, 02:21 PM

How many times can we go over this?

Anyway, you're all wrong and you're all right. I always hear people define goth like it's objective. That's insane. No one "invented" or "discovered" goth, and there is no real definition.
It's flux.

Beneath the Shadows · 08-29-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

How many times can we go over this?

Always once more, apparently.

Wormboy · 08-29-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

What is Goth?

Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves. In a nutshell, Goth is very much like 70s Punk with a brain and good manners. (In other words, it shares the underlying feeling of disgust and seperation from normal everyday culture that the 70s Punks espoused, but expresses its alienation and disenchantment with modern society and it's values in a more intelligent and less destructive manner.) The label Goth itself is very much a descriptive reference to the literary genre and architectural style both of which characterize and evoke the mood and to a certain degree, mindset that is generally idealized by modern Goth as a cultural group.

How do I become Goth?

I hate to break it to you, but Goth is not something you can just learn. Gothic people grew up that way. Most people do not have the genuine sense of wonder, creativity, talent, open-mindedness, and appreciation of the duality of existence, nor of themselves and their abilities that makes a person genuinely Goth. While some of these things can be learned over the course of years, most of it can only be emulated. To emulate something strongly implies that the action is neither original nor genuine. That is just not Goth.

How do I know if I'm Goth?

This is a VASTLY more reasonable question. It's sort of odd and sad at the same time that a lot of actual Goths don't know that they are. This is unfortunately the work of massive media stereotyping and misinformation from ignorant but rather noisy wanna-bees. It seems that the bulk of available information on Goth comes from those two sources. Never mind that.

If most (10 or more) of the following statements are true, it is VERY likely that you are Goth. If the first statement is false, you aren't Goth. No, not even if all 16 of the rest are true. Of course, you would be readily accepted and most welcome amongst Goths for your strength of individuality and ability to appreciate the culture in general and themselves in particular.

You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)
Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange
You like museums and cultural centers
You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes
You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either
You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds
You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)
You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV
You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know
You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you
You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers
You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own
You don't just reject something because you don't understand it
You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like
You are not afraid of the unknown
You are not afraid of the dark
You are afraid of mediocrity
Laura Lemay says that to be Goth I have to be angsty and wear a lot of black. Is this true?

NO. Black and angst are not necessary to be Goth. True Goth defies stereotyping and does not adhere to dress codes. Too much angst or other negative emotion stifles a person's ability to learn, think, and create. Most actual Goths are psychologically pretty well-adjusted people. They just have a different set of cultural and social blueprints than your average person. Ms. Lemay knows a lot more about web authoring than she does about Goth, even if she refuses to practice good web design on her own personal site. But she DID get one thing right when she said,"Try not to take yourselves so seriously." Granted, that's a little out of context, but it's good advice just the same.

So, this brings up a whole new can of worms...the most common tidbits of juicy misinformation about Goth. In almost two decades of watching people's perceptions of Goth, I have found that never has there been so much inaccurate information as there is now. It's time to break out the hammer and start banging.

Let's take a look at the most commonly distributed misinformation about Goth, shall we?

Ten Gothic Stereotypes We All Love To Repeat

All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.
Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.
All Goths listen to the same music.
All Goths are fixated on death.
All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.
Goth came from the hippie movement.
Goths don't laugh except to mock others.
Goths all have tattoos and piercings.
Goths always wear a lot of makeup.
Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.

From http://www.fehq.org/public/whatgoth.htm

To all the people who said it's a music preference and nothing else - I don't agree. To me it seems more like a preoccupation with the dark side of life, INCLUDING music, but also literature and ideas, philosophies and, sure, sometimes dress. I don't think you can say it's just one thing, the original 70s subculture may have been based around music but that's not all there is to it. I used to listen to The Cure and Bauhaus (I hate them now) but I've never considered myself a goth.

Well by your criteria I am quite goth then...

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 02:28 PM

G_G heeheeh...That's an article, I believe

Rather famous, if I do say so.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Rae Ven Rae · 08-29-2007, 02:28 PM

Kewl--thank you ...

Funny too--I just can't pin point when and where I chose to be "Goth"...I could be all corny and said it chose me and Kontan could swat at me for being all lame and stuff..:-)

meh...

The odds were stacked against me...

I grew up in the hood, and I don't mean the play hood that some rappers claim to be from for street cred., I mean the move-into-a-new-apartment-scrub-the-chalk outline-off-the-floor hood.

NO ONE I knew was drawn to what i was drawn to.

By age eight I was quoting Nietzche (sp?) and referencing Greek mythological tales --everyone thought I was a weirdo--or a devil worshipper.

I had a natural fondness for black..

I was about sixteen when I ran into my own tribe, but I found it odd that here were so many restrictive rules within the subculture...lol..

This is why I feel a true Goth is not one who dresses a certain way or looks that way--I know the phrase was coined by the music, but I think people who were Goth in nature existed prior to this...

Saddiction · 08-29-2007, 02:35 PM

Boooorrriiing. *yawn*
This subject is so redundant.

Apathy's_Child · 08-29-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wormboy

Well by your criteria I am quite goth then...

It is, as Vyvian said, a famous article. I don't agree with everything they say (according to the author I'd be goth as well), but it's about the only definition I've seen that doesn't make me want to puke too much. Probably because it shows respect for intelligence when intellectualism is seen my many as something of a dirty word these days. I have sympathy for anyone or any subculture that values getting off your ass and learning something.

Rae Ven Rae · 08-29-2007, 02:42 PM

I agree--the article is on point with how I perceive the Goth culture itself...

KontanKarite · 08-29-2007, 02:59 PM

Let's see what else we have that shares the ideas of dark aesthetics and ideals, shall we?

Emos. Scene kids. Mansonites. Metalheads. HMMMMMMmmmm.....

Again, goth is NOT a mental state. If it was purely a state of mind, Emo would be interchangable with Goth or Mansonite. It just isn't true.

Essentially, we're going to have to try again.

Basically, I am a goth because I listen to goth music and it touches me. I feel that I relate to that style of music quite a bit.

The whole dressing in black, dark poetry, and my love for all things light and dark in life were just me. To say that I was raised goth and was born a goth sounds elitist as fuck and makes me sound like I'm something special or different.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKartie

Basically, I am a goth because I listen to goth music and it touches me. I feel that I relate to that style of music quite a bit.

G_G but that kind of, to me at least, even with the small detail that you relate to the music, basically paints the ideal of our aesthetic. I don't really think it sounds elist. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Interesting discussion.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Apathy's_Child · 08-29-2007, 03:10 PM

Well, I'm not a goth myself, but I do think there must be something in the intellectualism thing. I've known four goths in real life, all of whom have been highly intelligent and well-read. Not many subcultures have a basis in literature that stretches back way before the music was conceived. The word gothic wasn't INVENTED when the music was, it's just the tag that was chosen.

Besides which, if there was a rigid and accurate definition there'd be nothing to argue about. It's debatable, not set in stone.

KontanKarite · 08-29-2007, 03:15 PM

I think the question that is better asked is, "Are you a goth because you are or do you just like the "power" behind the word and essentially use it to seem better or something of that nature?"

Rae Ven Rae · 08-29-2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

The whole dressing in black, dark poetry, and my love for all things light and dark in life were just me. To say that I was raised goth and was born a goth sounds elitist as fuck and makes me sound like I'm something special or different.

See you misunderstand me--I was hardly raised Goth--my dad was a gay black man who liked R and B and thought I was weird -- I am saying that I am Goth because I had a predilection towards Goth type things, like the music and clothing--my innate interests lured me there same as you..

I am not saying that it is a calling or makes me better than anyone, I am saying that people who are truly goth are people who not only look a certain way but are drawn to he culture because that is their nature...they are not pretending to like certain things because it is trendy to do so--they truly like it.

Doesn't make them better or special, no more than being born blond or brunette makes one special, it simply is what it is...

Graveyard.Crow · 08-29-2007, 03:23 PM

It's starting to sound painfully obvious that it's better to just forget about the name goth, and just like "dark" things if you do without trying to impress every other person out there.

Apathy's_Child · 08-29-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I think the question that is better asked is, "Are you a goth because you are or do you just like the "power" behind the word and essentially use it to seem better or something of that nature?"

Well, there you have the Spooky Kids and the "im a satanist lol fear mah dark soul" sort of people. I'd say the question that is better asked is "are you into the staples of gothic subculture, i.e. music, literature and fashion?"

Vyvian Blackthorne · 08-29-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I think the question that is better asked is, "Are you a goth because you are or do you just like the "power" behind the word and essentially use it to seem better or something of that nature?"

Gah. I think that was rephrased a bit too much.

All I am saying is, in the dark words of Haunted House:

"We're not 100% Bauhaus is cool. Nor 100% This Corset costs $900."
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever