Oh no! Fat Goth people.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I think the people who are more vulnerable to anorexia are perfectionists, or they try to please everyone and thus feel out of control, so one thing they can control is what/how much they eat.
That, and it can often get into a cycle. People may complement the anorexic person when they've lost a little weight, so they lose more, but then they often can't stop after the compliments dry up.

At least, that's what they told me in psyc class.

[Rae Ven Rae]

I think on the whole, before people make assumptions that a super thin gal is anorexic or a fat person is lazy they should try to see if their hunches are correct. As we said, some fat people are actually fit, while some thin people are just naturally thin...

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I'm naturally thin, and I'm lazy. My exercise consists of walking to class, or the occasional walk downtown. Being thin and not getting exercise is bad for you too. Then again, sometimes I'm lazy in that if I'm feeling too asocial to go to the caf, but I'm only making supper for myself, I sometimes just don't make it, and snack on shreddies or honey-roasted peanuts. Or bananas, if I've recently been to the grocery store. *runs away in shame* But that's rare, and not from a desire to be ridiculously thin; it's either cuz I'm just incredibly lazy that day, or I'm too distracted by painting or something to realize that I'm hungry.

On another note:
There was a lady I worked with this summer, and she was chunky, but she was very fit; she could lift as much as (or more than) the guys who actually did work. That, and she looked fabulous.

[Underwater Ophelia]

I think a problem here is that you're confusing anorexia with just being weight obsessed. See, they're two different things.
One can diet and starve obsessively and not be anorexic. It's anorexia when you cannot help it at all, and the disease is actually more mental than it is physical.
So, people often THINK they have anorexia, but they don't.




If this post makes no sense, just bring it to my attention tomorrow and I'll clarify: I'm high as shit right now, so if this didn't make sense, just tell me tomorrow.

[Rae Ven Rae]

Labelle makes a valid point here--thin doesn't mean fit or fat unfit--

uhmmm what are shreddies?

[Valrys]

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

uhmmm what are shreddies?

Mmmm, Shreddies

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

uhmmm what are shreddies?

A cereal. They're squares of woven wheat lines.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/3...21ea5974_m.jpg
They're quite plain; they have very little sugar, but I like them. Maybe that's because I've been eating them since as long as I can remember...
My dad always puts brown sugar on them on the rare occasions he has them, but I've never bothered. *shrugs*

[MollyMac]

There are "thin" people who are classified as obese as they have little to no muscle tone, their body fat is over 35%, and they have fat around their organs.

And anorexia IS a mental illness in the same arena as obsessive compulsive disorder. It is not a food obsession, Ophelia is right. Knowing this does not make it a mealticket, it helps to understand how to treat it. It is not wholly society's fault, it is not the afflicted's fault. It is faulty wiring that is in a perfect storm to breed.

[Romantic Raven]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

I'm naturally thin, and I'm lazy. My exercise consists of walking to class, or the occasional walk downtown. Being thin and not getting exercise is bad for you too. Then again, sometimes I'm lazy in that if I'm feeling too asocial to go to the caf, but I'm only making supper for myself, I sometimes just don't make it, and snack on shreddies or honey-roasted peanuts. Or bananas, if I've recently been to the grocery store. *runs away in shame* But that's rare, and not from a desire to be ridiculously thin; it's either cuz I'm just incredibly lazy that day, or I'm too distracted by painting or something to realize that I'm hungry.

Damn, I wish I could eat everything I want and not gain a pound. I gain weight really fast, so I have to keep an eye on everything I put in my mouth.

[Metabolik]

Originally Posted by Romantic Raven

so I have to keep an eye on everything I put in my mouth.

That sounded really wrong to me, I have a dirty mind...just ignore me...o_O

[Romantic Raven]

I thought some might interpret it that way.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Metabolik

That sounded really wrong to me, I have a dirty mind...just ignore me...o_O

We will, don't worry.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by d.Nox

Real medical professionals consider anything they can put a label on to be a disease; how else can they make money treating it?

Sociologists have long recognized (based on the textbooks I've worked on--none of which I own, alas) the increasing "medicalization" of just about everything, from alcoholism to anti-social tendencies. Sure, most of these things have a measurable physiological component, but so does just about everything you can do. It doesn't make them diseases.

Judging from the experiences I've had with anorexic people, it's just no more a disorder than the sort of obesity that comes from gorging yourself and sitting on a couch all day. It's just another way of avoiding unpleasant realities and pretending to have control without having to take real responsibility. Not that all anorexics are this way; just those I've known personally.

While I agree with the over-medicalization argument on many levels, I think it does a grave disservice to actual anorexics to say it's not a real disorder. Every disorder has fakers, especially the more highly publicized ones. That doesn't mean it's not a real disorder, it just means it's the mental health bandwagon of the moment (it's happened with multiple personality disorder and ADD too). More media coverage = more awareness = an increase in both accurate and inaccurate diagnoses.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Metabolik

That sounded really wrong to me, I have a dirty mind...just ignore me...o_O

This is totally off topic, but don't you think it's in poor taste to have a slipknot icon on a goth forum? They're probably one of the top 5 most hated bands by goths because that's who everyone mistakenly labels as goth. And then people think that we are in some way related to sloppy teenagers in baggy pants and slipknot tees who hang out in the mall all day. We spend a lot of time fighting these misconceptions, and I'd rather not have people on a supposedly goth forum reinforcing them. It's like having an Avril Lavigne icon on a punk forum. You're entitled to do whatever you want, but I just have to point out that it's bad etiquette IMHO.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Wouldn't it also be bad etiquette to have a handle inspired by one of the leading and most easily accessible goth icons?

[Romantic Raven]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Wouldn't it also be bad etiquette to have a handle inspired by one of the leading and most easily accessible goth icons?

I think that just made my day.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Romantic Raven

I think that just made my day.

Aw, I'm glad. =D

[d.Nox]

While I agree with the over-medicalization argument on many levels, I think it does a grave disservice to actual anorexics to say it's not a real disorder. Every disorder has fakers, especially the more highly publicized ones. That doesn't mean it's not a real disorder, it just means it's the mental health bandwagon of the moment (it's happened with multiple personality disorder and ADD too). More media coverage = more awareness = an increase in both accurate and inaccurate diagnoses.

I understand I'm making an unpopular argument here, and one that defies the accepted wisdom of the medical fields. If you're not convinced, that's fine with me; I'm just saying the way I see it.

For me, the whole question hinges on how you define a "real disorder." If it's something that the medical books list, then anorexia counts. If it's something with serious health implications, then again, anorexia counts. But if you claim that a disorder something over which the sufferer has no control, then I'm afraid anorexia is not a real disorder.

Why? There is no cure for anorexia which does not hinge on willpower. Saying "real anorexics have no control over their behavior" is the same thing as saying "real anorexics do not control their behavior." In order to cure anorexia, the only thing that needs to happen--the sole goal of interventions, counseling, and so forth--is that the anorexic must come to believe that they can control their behavior, and find a reason to do so.

Ditto for most (not all, but most) other neurotic behaviors. Labeling them diseases is, IMO, a disservice to those that suffer from them. A disease makes you a victim; but neuroses are your own issues brought to the fore. You're a victim only to the extent that you give up control to your demons.

Flame on!

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by d.Nox

Ditto for most (not all, but most) other neurotic behaviors. Labeling them diseases is, IMO, a disservice to those that suffer from them. A disease makes you a victim; but neuroses are your own issues brought to the fore. You're a victim only to the extent that you give up control to your demons.

Flame on!

If you really feel this way, the only reason I can think of is that you have no experience with mental disorders.
The point is you CANNOT recover by yourself--that's what makes it a disorder.

[MollyMac]

It's willpower if there is a perceived decision involved between want and need. It's willpower when you can weight yes or no and decide. It's a disorder when you do not recognize that there is a decision to be made.

EDIT:

Why would we flame? I may not agree, but you aren't being an ignorant ass.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Wouldn't it also be bad etiquette to have a handle inspired by one of the leading and most easily accessible goth icons?

Having a goth band-inspired handle...on a goth forum...is bad etiquette? If you say so.

And for the record, I don't pretend the name is anything besides the utmost in cheesy melodrama. I picked it years ago and kept it out of convenience more than anything else.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by d.Nox

Labeling them diseases is, IMO, a disservice to those that suffer from them. A disease makes you a victim; but neuroses are your own issues brought to the fore. You're a victim only to the extent that you give up control to your demons.

Flame on!

You know, I mostly agree with you. I think that the human mind is capable of molding itself in incredible ways, but that we do not often harness our own power. I think many diseases, particularly mental ones, can be cured through the power of thought and willpower. I have overcome some pretty significant issues in my life just by tapping into my mental strength. The problem is that this is not feasible or realistic for most people. If mental strength is a muscle, then it is out of shape in many people. And until we start teaching resilience and coping skills, there will be people with such weak "mental muscle" that they will need diagnoses, mental health services, and drugs just to live a normal life. They should be able to do it on their own, but they can't. And denying them the benefit of treatment is unethical. So while I agree that many disorders *shouldn't* exist, the fact is that they do and people need help dealing with them.

[Anguelon]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

You know, I mostly agree with you. I think that the human mind is capable of molding itself in incredible ways, but that we do not often harness our own power. I think many diseases, particularly mental ones, can be cured through the power of thought and willpower. I have overcome some pretty significant issues in my life just by tapping into my mental strength. The problem is that this is not feasible or realistic for most people. If mental strength is a muscle, then it is out of shape in many people. And until we start teaching resilience and coping skills, there will be people with such weak "mental muscle" that they will need diagnoses, mental health services, and drugs just to live a normal life. They should be able to do it on their own, but they can't. And denying them the benefit of treatment is unethical. So while I agree that many disorders *shouldn't* exist, the fact is that they do and people need help dealing with them.

Now you sound like Tom Cruise criticizing Brooke Shields on Post Partum Depression. I'm just pulling your leg , Lady. But the sad fact is, many mental sicknesses are genetic but people weren't that knowledgeable about it long ago. You may be right. I do agree that some people are over medicated. But there's one loop hole here, many cases of obesity are genetic same as many mental disorders are genetic and not to mention hereditary. It's almost the same as having your mom's brown eyes.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Anguelon

Now you sound like Tom Cruise criticizing Brooke Shields on Post Partum Depression. I'm just pulling your leg , Lady. But the sad fact is, many mental sicknesses are genetic but people weren't that knowledgeable about it long ago. You may be right. I do agree that some people are over medicated. But there's one loop hole here, many cases of obesity are genetic same as many mental disorders are genetic and not to mention hereditary. It's almost the same as having your mom's brown eyes.

This is true. There is definitely a physiological component to all mental disorders, and in some cases it is related to genetics. But there are also learned behaviors and socialization involved. Would someone from a long line of alcoholics be one too if they never had a drink in the first place? They'd still have a predisposition, yes, but I think that by knowing about family history behavior can be modified to help mitigate the effects of genetic predispositions. Again, it's far from a cure, but prevention is certainly a more cost-effective and safe approach than treatment.

[d.Nox]

MollyMac wrote:
It's willpower if there is a perceived decision involved between want and need. It's willpower when you can weight yes or no and decide. It's a disorder when you do not recognize that there is a decision to be made.

That's a good point. However, that standard does have a few failings.

First, being anorexic doesn't mean being stupid. Most anorexics--or at least, any that I've talked to or read interviews with, etc.--know perfectly well that if they'd eat more they'd be healthier and people would stop bugging them. They're aware of the decision; they just decide based on criteria that most of us see as harmful and irrational.

Second, your criterion for a disorder gives society what I see to be an undue amount of leeway in deciding what is and isn't a disease. For instance, many religious people do not consider themselves to have an option in the way they worship; but if society as a whole were to decide that such worship were unhealthy, it would be a disorder no less than anorexia.

(As for the flaming, whenever I've said something like this IRL, people tend to get snippy; I assumed it'd be the same or worse online. Glad to see that's not the case, yet.)

LadyLucretia wrote:
They should be able to do it on their own, but they can't. And denying them the benefit of treatment is unethical. So while I agree that many disorders *shouldn't* exist, the fact is that they do and people need help dealing with them.

I'm not arguing that people can fight anorexia on their own, or that they don't need help. In a perfect world, it would work that way; this world is far from it.

That doesn't mean that the best solution is to place anorexia etc. in the same category ("disorders requiring medical attention") as cancer, colds, or Parkinson's disease. Western medicine is geared towards fighting those problems that a scalpel or a pill can cure. It doesn't do nearly so well with disorders that involve people's beliefs, values, and perceptions. In fact, telling someone they suffer from a medical disorder implies that the problem is coming from "outside" the sufferer--and that outside help can fix it--when the opposite is in fact true.

So what, then? Alternative therapies, whether it's ayurveda or evangelical faith-healing, can often boast successes as good or better than psychotherapy when it comes to psychological disorders, as long as the patient believes in the efficacy of the treatment. (There's a reason AA bible-thumping is still the gold standard in fighting addiction.) The placebo effect, important even in strictly physiological problems, becomes all-important when dealing with neuroses. But western medicine uses, in effect, an anti-placebo: telling someone they suffer from a medical disorder implies that the problem is coming from "outside" the sufferer--and that outside help can fix it--when the opposite is in fact true.

Anyway, I'll put away my soap-box now. Sorry for the rant.