The ideologies of goths

EdwardSmith · 05-14-2006, 06:20 AM

An ideology is a set of related positions on most controversial issues. The current
political classifications and classification systems do not cover all ideologies, and
they also use superficial classification criteria that falsely portray fundamentally
dissimilar ideologies as being identical or similar, and falsely portray fundamentally
similar ideologies as being dissimilar. A political classification system that classifies
people accurately is called for.

I have done a large amount of research to catalog the issue position correlations for
the the many highly-controversial issues. My findings indicate that there is a total of 9
ideological types, 1 of which is non-ideological, being motivated by self-interest rather
than true ideology (who are not to be confused with the people who consider
self-interest itself to be an ideology), but all of the other ideological types have true
ideologies. The 8 true ideologies come in 4 sets of polar-opposite pairs. Similarities
and differences between the various ideologies can be seen in the issue positions.

The 9 ideological types are listed and described at
http://ultrashare.net/hosting/sf/3294e0d6e4 , with the non-ideological type listed first
because it does not have a list of definite positions. Obviously, a person's exact
position can be intermediate between different ideologies, and one's personal status,
personal experience, and other exposure to certain aspects of an issue, can effect
one's position on specific issues, especially for people that are not strongly genuinely
ideological, so most people do not fall exactly into one of the categories on all of the
issues, but the more strongly ideological a person is, the more positions they have that
are listed in the same ideology. The United States republican party falls inbetween the
non-ideological and fascist positions, and the United States democratic party falls
inbetween the non-ideological and theist socialist positions. The state communist
regimes, such as that of North Korea and the former Soviet Union, are more similar
to theocracy or fascism than true socialism, as they suppress conventional religion so
as to use the redirected religious feeling as a driving force for their regimes, and that is
why Russia and China are allies of Iran.

I suspect that the average goth has a substantially different ideology than the
average person in the general populace. Which of the described ideologies most
closely describes you? That's 'most closely describes', not 'fits you exactly or nearly
exactly'.

spookypurple · 05-14-2006, 06:37 AM

Eh?

*******

Sobeh · 05-14-2006, 11:40 AM

No introduction, just a blatant trolling (in the fishing sense, but maybe otherwise) for stats. Yay!

Try not objectifying the community; if you want a discourse, begin talking and let us know about yourself. Also keep in mind the rather large sample of non-goths on this board, which means your data is already corrupt, kind of like your motivations.

If you can't talk to people like a human being, sod off.

What else, what else.... oh yeah.

<ahem>

"I am not a number!!"

And no existentialist option, nor phenomenologist, nor disestablishmentarianist... what tripe!

emeraldlonewoulf · 05-14-2006, 12:08 PM

sentiment seconded.

Nardol · 05-14-2006, 12:30 PM

If you are going to cut and paste, at least have the sense to edit so as to make it look good.

EdwardSmith · 05-15-2006, 03:51 AM

"No introduction, just a blatant trolling (in the fishing sense, but maybe otherwise) for stats. Yay!
Try not objectifying the community; if you want a discourse, begin talking and let us know about yourself. Also keep in
mind the rather large sample of non-goths on this board, which means your data is already corrupt, kind of like your
motivations."
"If you can't talk to people like a human being, sod off." "what tripe!"
"Bullshit." "sentiment seconded."
"Juan? Hun, your other screen name hasn't been banned yet. Why don't you just keep using that one?" (I don't
know who Juan is, but since that accusation is false, my guess is that this Juan is a very disrespectable person)
"If you are going to cut and paste, at least have the sense to edit so as to make it look good."

LOL! Wow, you people (all except one) don't even have the basic civility to participate in a poll unless the
person that made the poll goes through the dominance initiation ritual of personal introduction, and the poll itself
conforms to your conventional beliefs. If a poll does not meet those requirements, then you perceive it not as an
act of pursuing knowledge, but as a violation of your dominance, such that the content of the poll does not even
matter to you; you will crudely discredit it no matter what, so as to distract from it's truth. The emotion of
dominance is a crude blind forceful feeling of disrupting fine subtle truth. The comical irony is that people
persecute goths largely for the very same reason, so you are a bunch of hypocrites. It is notable that the one
person that was civil enough to vote is a precisionist. Evidently precisionists are more civil than the other types.

Anyway, good job improving the image of goths. Well, so much my hope that goths might be MORE civilized
than people in the general populace. No wonder so many people have formed bad stereotypes about goths.
Good luck! -and keep the humorous insults coming!

Nike · 05-15-2006, 04:23 AM

So in your world of hopes there are goths (more civilized) and the "general populace (less civilized)? So basically all you have to do is wear some black rags, buy some goth cds and read some stuff like Lovecraft, describe yourself with one or two words in a made up poll, and think that makes you really intellectuel and civil. More than the "general populace".

oh my. It's a flat world.

EdwardSmith · 05-15-2006, 05:25 AM

So you believe that gothism is never about more than paraphernalia, and has nothing to do with one's
natural character, and you believe that a person that claims to have a certain ideology merely claims it,
rather than actually having it, and you believe that polls that are based upon a vast amount of research
are made up? LOL, talk about flat earth mentality. Do you also believe that humans do not have internal
organs because they can't be seen on the surface? As with the discreditting of people that do not adhere
to the rituals of a dominance hierarchy, the blind false portrayal of substance as trivial superficialities is also
motivated by the crude blind forceful joy of disrupting the fine subtlety of truth.

Morrigan_Dubh · 05-15-2006, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdwardSmith

LOL! Wow, you people (all except one) don't even have the basic civility to participate in a poll unless the
person that made the poll goes through the dominance initiation ritual of personal introduction...

I do believe that if you wish to find willing participants in your research, you need to present yourself as someone who does not see the potential subjects as lab-rats and as someone who is willing to involved himself in their community and who resepects their idea that they are individuals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdwardSmith

and the poll itself
conforms to your conventional beliefs.

Naturally, if a poll asks the subject to chose a pigeonhole or label for themselves, then the subject must identify with the options given by the poll in order to choose. Otherwise they can not make a choice.

Quote:

If a poll does not meet those requirements, then you perceive it not as an
act of pursuing knowledge, but as a violation of your dominance, such that the content of the poll does not even
matter to you; you will crudely discredit it no matter what, so as to distract from it's truth. The emotion of
dominance is a crude blind forceful feeling of disrupting fine subtle truth.

Please elaborate further on your definition of dominance, with examples from this thread.

Quote:

The comical irony is that people
persecute goths largely for the very same reason, so you are a bunch of hypocrites.

The comical irony is that you are posing as a scientist/researcher but are getting very passionate about the reactions of your subjects, rather than noting it down in your journal.

Quote:

It is notable that the one
person that was civil enough to vote is a precisionist. Evidently precisionists are more civil than the other types.

If you can draw that conclusion from the current results of this poll, you are discrediting your research even more.

Quote:

Anyway, good job improving the image of goths. Well, so much my hope that goths might be MORE civilized
than people in the general populace.

You must have gotten this erroneous 'hope' from some of your own research.

Quote:

No wonder so many people have formed bad stereotypes about goths.

People have formed bad stereotypes about every type of people. Name me a good stereotype.

Quote:

Good luck! -and keep the humorous insults coming!

I don't want to insult, I just want to ... understand...

Nike · 05-15-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdwardSmith

So you believe that gothism is never about more than paraphernalia, and has nothing to do with one's
natural character, and you believe that a person that claims to have a certain ideology merely claims it,
rather than actually having it, and you believe that polls that are based upon a vast amount of research
are made up? LOL, talk about flat earth mentality. Do you also believe that humans do not have internal
organs because they can't be seen on the surface? As with the discreditting of people that do not adhere
to the rituals of a dominance hierarchy, the blind false portrayal of substance as trivial superficialities is also
motivated by the crude blind forceful joy of disrupting the fine subtlety of truth.

Yes. I'm flat like a disk.

End of story

spookypurple · 05-15-2006, 08:02 AM

Oh, that's why you were here. I'm sorry. It just sounded like you'd marched in to pick a fight. The pugnacious writing style, I mean.

The poll wasn't visible initially...

One bit of advice, (speaking as someone with a science/research background), that if you're genuinely, seriously intent on doing research, warm your hands first. Introduce yourself. Even lab rats don't like being poked with sharp sticks by a total stranger.

You'd also find out far more if you just hung out (metaphorically) with everyone and got into discussions and (even - shock horror) debates.

Think sea anemones.

Onwards!

4mytribe · 05-15-2006, 09:37 AM

I read the title and knew this thread was going to be funny and was not dissapointed. And no I'm taking the damn poll.

EdwardSmith · 05-16-2006, 06:48 AM

"Naturally, if a poll asks the subject to chose a pigeonhole or label for themselves, then the subject must identify
with the options given by the poll in order to choose. Otherwise they can not make a choice."
-excepted from the first post: "That's 'most closely describes', not 'fits you exactly or nearly exactly'."
...

"The comical irony is that you are posing as a scientist/researcher but are getting very passionate about the
reactions of your subjects, rather than noting it down in your journal."
-You believe that poking fun at people and analyzing reactions is passion? -and you believe that all
researchers are content to let their research be disrupted? -and you believe that if a person responds to
responses, then it is impossible for them to study said responses? Nice job trying to distract from the truth
of the poll by attacking me.

"If you can draw that conclusion from the current results of this poll, you are discrediting your research even more."
-LOL. Wow, great argument for why my research is false. I'm glad you didn't just try to blindly discredit all of
my research by making a confident ambiguous statement that my astute analysis of the poll results somehow
discredits my research rather than adding to it, so as to distract from it's truth.

I'm sure that the poll is botched by now though, since I made that statement about precisionists (who happen
to be the opposite of theocrats, by the way, as is stated in the ideology list).

"I don't want to insult, I just want to ... understand..."
LOL! Good one!

"you need to present yourself as someone
who does not see the potential subjects as lab-rats and as someone who is willing to involved himself in their
community and who resepects their idea that they are individuals. "
"It just sounded like you'd marched in to pick a fight. The pugnacious writing style, I mean."
"Even lab rats don't like being poked with sharp sticks by a total stranger."
-I think I understand... if a person does not submit to the social dominance initiation rituals, then that means
that they view others not as being separate and equal, but as inferiors, and their analytical writing style in which
they ask a survey question is in fact pugnacious and serves to pick a fight, and the survey causes pain to
people as if poking them with sharp sticks.

"Yes. I'm flat like a disk.
End of story (grin smiley)"
-What are you talking about? I stated that your MENTALITY is a flat earth mentality.
Perhaps Nike is trying to make a convincingly ambiguous false portrayal of my statements as being the opposite
of what they are, so as to distract from their truth, a behavior that is also motivated by the crude blind joy of
disrupting fine truth. Nothing disrupts the truth more than it's polar opposite. But I can only speculate about his
meaning.

Morrigan_Dubh · 05-16-2006, 06:59 AM

I think so, Brain! We'll dress up like biker dudes and infiltrate the "Hades Ladies." Then we'll convince them to hold a meeting inside the corn palace. Narf! The resulting carbon-monoxide buildup will allow you to complete your energy-making device and shortly after, you will rule the world!

Draconysius · 05-16-2006, 09:04 AM

You believe you know everything; that there is nothing left for you to learn. That is indeed a typical teenage rebel ideology. Congratulations, Edward! You've earned a title even cooler than goth: SHIT-FOR-BRAINS!

Nike · 05-16-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdwardSmith

"Yes. I'm flat like a disk.
End of story (grin smiley)"
-What are you talking about? I stated that your MENTALITY is a flat earth mentality.
Perhaps Nike is trying to make a convincingly ambiguous false portrayal of my statements as being the opposite
of what they are, so as to distract from their truth, a behavior that is also motivated by the crude blind joy of
disrupting fine truth. Nothing disrupts the truth more than it's polar opposite. But I can only speculate about his
meaning.

I know what you've stated. I'll correct myself. My mentality is a flat earth mentality.
Are you fine now, Mr. *researcher*?

Sorry, I just can't take this seriously

Morrigan_Dubh · 05-16-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nike

Sorry, I just can't take this seriously

Indeed. He's so full of shit his eyes are brown.

Sobeh · 05-16-2006, 09:48 AM

I would've already said something else in response to this tripe but I've learned my lesson about trying to talk to people like this with any kind of reasonableness. As soon as he wrote "You people ... don't even have the basic civility to participate in a poll unless the
person that made the poll goes through the dominance initiation ritual of personal introduction...", I knew he was an arrogant, assumption-laden fucker who wasn't amenable to any kind of actual discourse.

I don't do luggage conversations anymore. If one's preconceived claptrap isn't carry-on or less, check your goddamn baggage and then try talking.

4mytribe · 05-16-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigan_Dubh

I think so, Brain! We'll dress up like biker dudes and infiltrate the "Hades Ladies." Then we'll convince them to hold a meeting inside the corn palace. Narf! The resulting carbon-monoxide buildup will allow you to complete your energy-making device and shortly after, you will rule the world!

This thread keeps getting better and better. I've gotten more laughs out of this one than many. And what I meant was: And no I WONT take the damn poll.

An Eccentric Cellist · 05-16-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sobeh

I would've already said something else in response to this tripe but I've learned my lesson about trying to talk to people like this with any kind of reasonableness. As soon as he wrote "You people ... don't even have the basic civility to participate in a poll unless the
person that made the poll goes through the dominance initiation ritual of personal introduction...", I knew he was an arrogant, assumption-laden fucker who wasn't amenable to any kind of actual discourse.
I don't do luggage conversations anymore. If one's preconceived claptrap isn't carry-on or less, check your goddamn baggage and then try talking.

Agreed. And once someone says "You people...." They've alienated themselves and therefore their parade will be rained on.
Also I'm not defending Eddie boy here but you can be passionate, and not necessarily emotional, I think that's the rule, don't let emotion cloud your judgement, that might be debate.
I think Nike was using obvious sarcasm. Oh how the intellegent can be the most foolish...

WolfMoon · 05-16-2006, 07:04 PM

Hey, Wankenstein!

Don't come onto these boards thinking your arrogance is going to win us over.

Don't post ridiculous crap and expect us to walk into the cage like good lil monkeys.

You don't like the 'dominant' attitude? Piss off!

You don't belong here!

EdwardSmith · 05-17-2006, 05:57 AM

"Don't post ridiculous crap"
"preconceived claptrap"
"He's so full of shit his eyes are brown."
"your arrogance"
"You believe you know everything; that there is nothing left for you to learn."
"expect us to walk into the cage like good lil monkeys."
"arrogant, assumption-laden fucker who wasn't amenable to any kind of actual discourse."
"I've learned my lesson about trying to talk to people like this with any kind of reasonableness."

-Wow. Great analytical insight of why my research findings are false. I'm glad that you didn't
just try to distract from the truth by libelling me. -So people that do not submit to dominance
rituals are arrogant, assumption-laden, unreasonable, think that they know everything, and desire
to dominate others? Do we also eat babies? -And you believe that people that post polls are
people that think that they know everything, rather than people that are seeking to know more?
-And you believe that libel constitutes discourse? -And you believe that truth-seeking analysis is
unreasonable and that libel to distract from truth is reasonable?

Morrigan_Dubh · 05-17-2006, 06:09 AM

"You might just as well say," added the Dormouse, which seemed to be talking in its sleep, "that 'I breath when I sleep' is the same thing as 'I sleep when I breathe'!"

Nike · 05-17-2006, 06:17 AM

haha, what can I add...

"It is the same thing with you," said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn't much."

EdwardSmith · 05-17-2006, 06:19 AM

"That is indeed a typical teenage rebel ideology. Congratulations, Edward! You've earned a title even cooler
than goth: SHIT-FOR-BRAINS!"

-Looks like I missed a quote! See my previous reply. This forum doesn't have an edit
function beyond 5 minutes.