Steampunk+race=A discussion

[Lolly PopMuzik]

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/...pective-essay/ (Put here because it goes beyond Fashion in spite of it being largely about aesthetics and it's not important enough for Politics)

A fascinating essay highlighting all the possibilities and problems that folks of color have with participating in a subculture that revolves around an era that has horrible overtones of racism, sexism, classism, violent crime and disease but is obnoxiously revered and imitated for its fashion and aristocracy. Especially in the goth scene.

Included in it is a wonderful response to "Take the enemy's trappings and use them," how do you appropriate such an era without simply accepting the oppressors' ways, and concepts to explore as a steampunk of color.

As much as I still don't really care for steampunk (I wish they would have taken a look at dieselpunk and retrofuturism) because the large part of the big Victorian obsession still irks me, the literary aspect has been almost totally abandoned, I find it both overrated and more than half of it to be uninspired and poorly done, it's still worth a glance. And it has The Harlem James Gang.

And none of that "Don't like steampunk? Don't look." poutiness if you gotta debate about this.

[Still Jack]

To be honest, I haven't really thought about this much. In my opinion, Steampunk is so romanticized in general that people don't really care about the racist/violent parts of the Victorian era and tend to forget about them. I also think that it's kind of a good thing, but it's important not to forget that the Victorian era was a really rather racist time.

(I have no idea if I'm making any sense, I'm too tired to think properly.)

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/...pective-essay/ (Put here because it goes beyond Fashion in spite of it being largely about aesthetics and it's not important enough for Politics)

A fascinating essay highlighting all the possibilities and problems that folks of color have with participating in a subculture that revolves around an era that has horrible overtones of racism, sexism, classism, violent crime and disease but is obnoxiously revered and imitated for its fashion and aristocracy. Especially in the goth scene.

Included in it is a wonderful response to "Take the enemy's trappings and use them," how do you appropriate such an era without simply accepting the oppressors' ways, and concepts to explore as a steampunk of color.

As much as I still don't really care for steampunk (I wish they would have taken a look at dieselpunk and retrofuturism) because the large part of the big Victorian obsession still irks me, the literary aspect has been almost totally abandoned, I find it both overrated and more than half of it to be uninspired and poorly done, it's still worth a glance. And it has The Harlem James Gang.

And none of that "Don't like steampunk? Don't look." poutiness if you gotta debate about this.

I see it as a non-issue. It also seems to me, admittedly from very little to go on, that it says more about the person who objects to it than the person wearing it.

[HavelockV]

A very interesting and thought-provoking article, made all the more relevant to my perspective due to its Asian authorship. It does resurrect some issues that have been points of discussion previously here, such as the question of whether or not attiring oneself in the mode of another culture implies that one embraces all aspects of said culture.

Personally, I agree with the author of the article in thinking that the Steampunk movement/subculture/aesthetic is one of possibilities and historical revisionism. As such, I do not feel that it should necessarily be perceived as buying into the more unsavory aspects of the Victorian culture upon which it is based. On a related note, I find the author's noting the romanticization of the Medieval-Renaissance period creates a parallel with the similar treatment afforded the Victorian Era, which suggests that aficionados of the latter are not exclusive in their 'whitewashing' of history.

So long as individuals have an awareness of and rejection for past cultural transgressions I see no reason why they should feel prohibited from creatively indulging in the more harmless venues of art, fashion, and liturature inspired by these time periods. And, as in all cultures and subcultures, there will a plethora of mediocre if not downright awful works produced that demonstrate a tenuous and/or commercialized knowledge of what the culture represents (I am thinking in this case of all those terrible teenage vampire and werewolf novels in relation to goth, alas!). However, there will always be a select number of works that stand out as superior examples.

It was quite enlightening to read about the evolution of the author's interest in Steampunk, including her questioning of whether or not her involvement in the movement would somehow violate her ethnic history. In the end, it is a personal decision about the extent to which you allow your feelings about the past to interfere with your self-expression and aesthetic preferences.

[Lady Christine]

I think that the style itself is harmless. I don't think people who indulge in steampunk that aren't of color are making the choice to involve themselves in the style to partake in the hatred hiding in the history. Just on the Sexism debate, I met a steampunk group that was lead by a girl. I've seen plenty of different faces in steampunk groups as well. Being white I guess I'm missing the point... I'm just put off by this. I don't think there's an issue dressing in different period costumes or styles altered off a period. I don't think the costumes have an effect in the state of mind of the person and that they're going to be a perfect soul out of costume and then a racist sexist as soon as the waist coat is on.

[gothicusmaximus]

Anyone who dresses steampunk is a traitor to his or her race, as that race now must admit a member who looks like an idiot.

[Malice In Wonderland]

A fucking Men.

[Lolly PopMuzik]

Originally Posted by Onyx

I see it as a non-issue. It also seems to me, admittedly from very little to go on, that it says more about the person who objects to it than the person wearing it.

Hmm, any experience with steampunk whether an active participant, outsider looking in or a regular PIB tired of seeing it everywhere?

Originally Posted by Lady Christine

I think that the style itself is harmless. I don't think people who indulge in steampunk that aren't of color are making the choice to involve themselves in the style to partake in the hatred hiding in the history. Just on the Sexism debate, I met a steampunk group that was lead by a girl. I've seen plenty of different faces in steampunk groups as well. Being white I guess I'm missing the point... I'm just put off by this. I don't think there's an issue dressing in different period costumes or styles altered off a period. I don't think the costumes have an effect in the state of mind of the person and that they're going to be a perfect soul out of costume and then a racist sexist as soon as the waist coat is on.

Honestly, doesn't this statement seem at least slightly callous to you? With attitudes like yours, it's no wonder that any POC is wary of participating in these kind of scenes. Sure, you say it's nothing to think about and do want to cast aside all sociological and cultural barriers I think you're more put off by a POC wanting to ask questions and generate thoughtful debate than the very real possibility of steampunk being another victim of the Leg Avenue costume creation.

And yes, you are missing the point.

Originally Posted by HavelockV

Personally, I agree with the author of the article in thinking that the Steampunk movement/subculture/aesthetic is one of possibilities and historical revisionism. As such, I do not feel that it should necessarily be perceived as buying into the more unsavory aspects of the Victorian culture upon which it is based. On a related note, I find the author's noting the romanticization of the Medieval-Renaissance period creates a parallel with the similar treatment afforded the Victorian Era, which suggests that aficionados of the latter are not exclusive in their 'whitewashing' of history.

So long as individuals have an awareness of and rejection for past cultural transgressions I see no reason why they should feel prohibited from creatively indulging in the more harmless venues of art, fashion, and liturature inspired by these time periods.

It was quite enlightening to read about the evolution of the author's interest in Steampunk, including her questioning of whether or not her involvement in the movement would somehow violate her ethnic history. In the end, it is a personal decision about the extent to which you allow your feelings about the past to interfere with your self-expression and aesthetic preferences.

I admit, for all of your "My word, old bean!"-ness in every post you've made here, you always did have an interesting take being on the other side of this. But do you actually believe the saying of "Take the trappings of your enemy and wear them in your own way, use them against them." even with the risk of falling into the trap of the average Victorian goth who doesn't even try to think about these issues?

As someone who can look at the 1920s and beyond as somewhat more open for to me take part in, I admit I struggle with this issue because I am always thinking about what it would say about ME if I suddenly started looking like the love child of Josephine Baker and Carole Lombard when the reality was I would be a juke joint girl or an uncredited onscreen maid in a big musical.

I wish Jillian were here but sadly he's too macktastic for this lowly thread of mine.

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Anyone who dresses steampunk is a traitor to his or her race, as that race now must admit a member who looks like an idiot.

HA! First intentional bit of humor I've had in this thread.

[Solumina]

During Victorian times my people were just as oppressed as yours so believe me when I say I get where you are coming from, but there is nothing morally different about the steampunk subculture. It is a reworking of the Victorian time period, not pure emulation, complete with modern morality, norms, and social mores.

[Lady Christine]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

Honestly, doesn't this statement seem at least slightly callous to you? With attitudes like yours, it's no wonder that any POC is wary of participating in these kind of scenes. Sure, you say it's nothing to think about and do want to cast aside all sociological and cultural barriers I think you're more put off by a POC wanting to ask questions and generate thoughtful debate than the very real possibility of steampunk being another victim of the Leg Avenue costume creation.

And yes, you are missing the point.

Alright, so by your standards you feel I'm making People of Color uncomfortable to participate in a fashion trend? How? I personally don't see the issue with people dressing in something that appeals to them aesthetically. I don't care if you're Caucasian, Asian, African, African American, Middle Eastern, or a grapefruit. If you like it, and if you want to wear it, that's your prerogative. No I DON'T mind someone provoking a debate, and honestly, the color of your skin couldn't matter less to me. Apparently the color of mine matters to you though. I feel that Steampunk is a trend, if it becomes mass produced, well, that's what happens when people think they can make a profit. That's business.

Alright, enlighten me.

[HavelockV]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

I admit, for all of your "My word, old bean!"-ness in every post you've made here, you always did have an interesting take being on the other side of this. But do you actually believe the saying of "Take the trappings of your enemy and wear them in your own way, use them against them." even with the risk of falling into the trap of the average Victorian goth who doesn't even try to think about these issues?

As someone who can look at the 1920s and beyond as somewhat more open for to me take part in, I admit I struggle with this issue because I am always thinking about what it would say about ME if I suddenly started looking like the love child of Josephine Baker and Carole Lombard when the reality was I would be a juke joint girl or an uncredited onscreen maid in a big musical.

I actually prefer not to think of fashion as some sort of battleground for ideological and cultural warfare and for as much as I respect the individual quoted for his skills and achievements, I find the statement to be absurd. One's choice of attire should be primarily focused on expressing one's own style rather than attempting to provoke and/or impress others.

Personally I feel that dressing in a manner which might have been inaccessible to one's forebears, whether through geographical, social, or even temporal constraints, should be considered liberating. I hardly ignore my Asian heritage, but at the same time I do not allow myself to be defined by historical stereotypes inspired by common, but by no means universal, roles which where inhabited by other Asians in the past.

On a side note, I have dined at Chez Josephine in New York City, which is run by Josephine Baker's white adopted son, Jean-Claude Baker (who is quite charming and friendly and personally welcomed our party into his restaraunt). A beautiful little jewel of an establishment, but with prices inversely proportional to the amount of food served, which is enough to deter me from future visits.

[Lolly PopMuzik]

Originally Posted by Lady Christine

Alright, so by your standards you feel I'm making People of Color uncomfortable to participate in a fashion trend? How? I personally don't see the issue with people dressing in something that appeals to them aesthetically. I don't care if you're Caucasian, Asian, African, African American, Middle Eastern, or a grapefruit. If you like it, and if you want to wear it, that's your prerogative. No I DON'T mind someone provoking a debate, and honestly, the color of your skin couldn't matter less to me. Apparently the color of mine matters to you though. I feel that Steampunk is a trend, if it becomes mass produced, well, that's what happens when people think they can make a profit. That's business.

Alright, enlighten me.

Not you yourself, but that statement is reminiscent of all of the beef that some of us folks have when it comes to these kinds of subcultures that focus on these kinds of eras. You know, the sentiment of "History doesn't matter here!". And as the OP, it's my job to keep a cool head and avoid the derailment into serious wank.

It really gets difficult when the majority of participants mean well when it comes to including us but either worry about articulating these concerns of -isms well because not much debate is generated and want to keep the peace and/or don't care about anything beyond being well-dressed.

Your color matters not to me, but dubbing me a racist because of mine when it involved another member who shared it with me does when that wasn't my intent. I may read too heavily into these kind of matters but I just don't want to be that token member who never speaks up when it comes to matters like these.

I am trying to work through it all but I wonder what kind of person would I be if I were to forgive all of these -isms wholesale and I feel like I would be a sell-out.

[Lady Christine]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

Not you yourself, but that statement is reminiscent of all of the beef that some of us folks have when it comes to these kinds of subcultures that focus on these kinds of eras. You know, the sentiment of "History doesn't matter here!". And as the OP, it's my job to keep a cool head and avoid the derailment into serious wank.

It really gets difficult when the majority of participants mean well when it comes to including us but either worry about articulating these concerns of -isms well because not much debate is generated and want to keep the peace and/or don't care about anything beyond being well-dressed.

Your color matters not to me, but dubbing me a racist because of mine when it involved another member who shared it with me does when that wasn't my intent. I may read too heavily into these kind of matters but I just don't want to be that token member who never speaks up when it comes to matters like these.

I am trying to work through it all but I wonder what kind of person would I be if I were to forgive all of these -isms wholesale and I feel like I would be a sell-out.

I don't think history matters, mainly because the steampunk genre is fantasy with elements of the victorian era thrown in. However if you want to argue there was some form of steampunk revolution the more power to you.

Uhm... I don't think that excluding anyone from a group activity or event based on skin color is productive. I still honestly don't see what the point of telling someone not to dress how they wish to is beneficial. That's just my opinion though.

I'm sorry I called you a racist. I just felt that you sorta spun the situation in that case based on the color of his skin. He was interested in victorian clothing and you directed him in the direction of a more common place style of dress in that time period for historical accuracy. I just think that if he's interested in that style that he's allowed no matter what social rung, and I was put off because the impression I got was that you disapprove of people of color dressing in clothing that isn't historically accurate for the common man.

[Lolly PopMuzik]

Originally Posted by Lady Christine

I don't think history matters, mainly because the steampunk genre is fantasy with elements of the victorian era thrown in. However if you want to argue there was some form of steampunk revolution the more power to you.

Uhm... I don't think that excluding anyone from a group activity or event based on skin color is productive. I still honestly don't see what the point of telling someone not to dress how they wish to is beneficial. That's just my opinion though.

I'm sorry I called you a racist. I just felt that you sorta spun the situation in that case based on the color of his skin. He was interested in victorian clothing and you directed him in the direction of a more common place style of dress in that time period for historical accuracy. I just think that if he's interested in that style that he's allowed no matter what social rung, and I was put off because the impression I got was that you disapprove of people of color dressing in clothing that isn't historically accurate for the common man.

I can accept that. I'm not telling anyone how to dress, I'm just curious as to how the POC who DO the whole fancypants/cogs and corsets/pantaloons can readily make peace with these eras and how to bridge those -isms with the majority. I just want a little food for thought and just wonder if they DO think about it, if at all.

But it's a shame that other people keen on the steampunk stuff over here aren't debating or talking about it.

[Solumina]

We aren't talking about it because it is a non-issue. As I stated before steampunk does not take on the morals and values of the Victorian era. It is a complete re-working of the time period, where honestly nothing is really the same besides the aesthetics and basic etiquette.

[Mir]

Lolly: By people of colour, do you mean just black or all non-Caucasians?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Yeah...definitely making too big a deal of this.

Like Solumina said, Steampunk isn't a wish to go back to that time period, it's a wish to go back to a time period that never existed, because it's totally unreal and unfaithful to the actual history.

If you find a steampunk who says things like, "Wouldn't it be awesome if we could still live in a time where black folk couldn't drink out of the same water fountain as me?" Then be offended.
Most of them are more like, "When I dress like this I get to pretend I'm in a world where everyone travels by blimp and I don't have to go to my minimum wage job at Staples tomorrow!"

[Angelic Dissonance]

I have always considered steampunk to be nothing more than a diversion from total realism... which is hardly worth saying, but if I didn't, I'd feel left out, right? I don't particularly even wear steampunk fashion--I simply consider the general aesthetic and fascination with airships to be another facet of my personality. I probably haven't read Verne since I was 8... sad as that is. But I do like goggles, frockcoats, and polished brass, and all of these issues are completely irrelevant to that.

[Delkaetre]

Steampunk does hark back to the times of Empire, yes.
But I've never, no matter how many of the buggers I've found myself surrounded by, heard any of them make a derogatory reference to anyone because of their race.
There have been 'wench' and 'not befitting a gentlewoman' comments, usually answered by 'you there, stableboy' and 'and he calls himself a gentleman!' comments - both sides with tongue firmly planted in cheek - but never a call for the negress to fetch the group's drinks or for the Chinaman to arrange suitable supplies of gunpowder and tea. It just doesn't seem to happen.
Steampunk has picked up the pretty, sanitised, adventure-novel parts of the Victorian ideal, leaving the racism and aggressive, limiting sexism behind.

Myself, I've skipped a bit past the Victoriana of Steampunk. My Gentleman and I go for a nice retrofuture, moving between the dreams of 1920 and 1940 for spare parts and flying caps. Victoriana's pretty, and Verne and Gibson paint some fascinating pictures, but a bustle skirt or frock coat just isn't practical for daring aerial battles.

And yes, there have been individuals of various colours at the steampunk events I've been to. Black (no idea of where Ms Y's family may have been from, but they've been British for the past few generations at least), Cantonese, Indian. There are more interesting things to do than talk about skin colour. There's dancing and drinking and catching up with friends and bitching about so-and-so who clearly bought his or her accessories from a shop rather than making them at home.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by HavelockV

One's choice of attire should be primarily focused on expressing one's own style rather than attempting to provoke and/or impress others.

This isn't really about what fashion should be, it's about what fashion is. Whether you intend to do so or not, you communicate something of yourself through your attire, and the vast majority of people are all too eager to receive that message, be it "I really have it together", "I might be a school shooter", or "I have chosen to exonerate the Victorian oligarchy because they wore pretty clothes."

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

There are more interesting things to do than talk about skin colour. There's... bitching about so-and-so who clearly bought his or her accessories from a shop rather than making them at home.

What's that rumbling? Could it be Malcom X doing somersaults in his grave?

[Despanan]

Streampunk is for pussies, Slavepunk is where it's at now.

I imagine a world where great airships which traverse the land powered by legions of enslaved men and women who throw them into the air, run a few feet, catch them, and throw them again. Where the filthy cobblestone streets are lit, not by electricity, nor by flickering gasslamps, but by the moon's reflection off pools of silver tears; tears shed by caged children. A world where the fires of industry are fueled by the shattered, broken, and shackled human spirit.

That's what I wear to the goth club. Bitches best not be offended.


They See Me Rollin
They Hatin' Patrollin' Tryin' to catch me ridin' Dirty

[the-nihilist]

Originally Posted by Still Jack

To be honest, I haven't really thought about this much. In my opinion, Steampunk is so romanticized in general that people don't really care about the racist/violent parts of the Victorian era and tend to forget about them. I also think that it's kind of a good thing, but it's important not to forget that the Victorian era was a really rather racist time.

(I have no idea if I'm making any sense, I'm too tired to think properly.)

I agree with this guy.

[Despanan]

It must be exhausting to be you.

[the-nihilist]

Nah, but it is quite dull, tedious and altogether boring which can be exhausting.

[RavenHallows.]

Chocolate could be racist if you think of it like that.