President

[WolfMoon]

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

[Loy]

Disfunction-just a quick bit of history....I can't remember which one of the founding fathers said this, but they said, in effect, that only about 30% of the citizens here were ever actually FOR separating from England. Most historians would actually argue that it was closer to about 20%. Most Historians would also argue that about 35% of the citizens here were for STAYING within the dominion of the crown, and everybody didn't give a shit less. As far as our actual separation, we didn't do it alone. In fact, if it weren't for France (what with all the material and financial support), and Prussia (well, this one's more accidental than anything else....Baron Von Steuben's homosexuality made him fairly unpopular in his native land, and was "travelling abroad" when he was recruited by Washington to come over to America and kick our weak, pathetic little army into shape.), we'd probably still be part of the Crown.

However, I do agree with your point about us trying to shove our ideology down somebody elses throat. It reeks of imperialism (I said it. I stand by it.). It's the same thing McKinley pulled with Cuba and the Phillipines after the Spanish American war....Roosevelt in Central America....and it's becoming a case of us not learning from our history (and being doomed to repeat it). All our reasons for going in have fallen by the wayside once the facts came in, and now we're fighting to "free" these people-yet we can't allow them the "freedom" we were supposedly fighting for....I'd ask people to find a copy of McKinley's speach to a group of clergy he was having dinner with in regards to why he couldn't allow the Phillipines to run themselves, and please compare it to the many, many reasons people have tossed out for "policing" Iraq....it's extremely similar (sans references to "christianizing our little brown brothers". I don't think modern conservatives would hang themselves politically by uttering those words publicly)

And, just for shits and giggles, I went around here and spoke to every Iraqi I could find (either former citizens or current ones going to school here). And I asked them "Was getting rid of Saddam Hussein a good thing?". Out of the 28 I asked, 28 answered "yes" (100%, for you staticians out there). So I then asked them, "are you happy with the way things have turned out since Saddam's fall?". Again, out of the 28 I asked, 28 said "no" (again, 100%). So then I aksed them "do you think George Bush did the right thing by invading?". Now here's where the variances kick in-out of the 28, 27 said "no" (the 1 neither agreed nor disagreed...they refused to answer. So our percantages are 96.417% for no, 3.583% undecided). When pressed as to why they refused to answer, they said "I do not want to happen what Saddam did before" (this person was a former prisoner in Iraq...something I always forget whenever I talk to him at his restaraunt). The reason everybody else said Bush didn't do the right thing (even though they ALL said that they were happy Saddam was gone) was (in essence) "Bush was using our suffering for his own purposes".....(as an aside-see, Muslims and Christians aren't THAT different. We both have a problem with "the ends justify the means".)

Now, why did I ask Iraqis? Simple-it's their fucking country. Their fucking motherland. Now, as I said, some of them are here to learn (the UW has a wonderful foreign-student trade-off program), some are here because they love the mythology about America we do, and some...well, they just needed to get the fuck out of there. But they were here FROM Iraq. They have a deeper connection to that area than we do. And hell, these people also fucking LOVE America...now if THEY have a problem with what's been happening over there, how do the Iraqis living there feel?

And why haven't we asked them?

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

The point is, it's not America's choice who over-throws their governments and when. God, yes, Saddam was horrible, and he needed to be ousted, but the manner in which the United States told the people of Iraq when, where, and how to fight this battle was disgustingly out of line. We did not have the authority, or the power to do this.

*We needed the support of the world to successfully alleviate the miseries of the Iraqi people.*

They are still miserable: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_335551.htm

"This is the freedom they promised us," said one resident, Jaber Kazem, 52, a merchant, pointing to the city square where charred lampposts, shell-damaged hotels and shattered glass bear witness to the recent fighting.

Miserable, and angry: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0326-01.htm

Any chance that tribespeople in this rural area south of Baghdad would look kindly on the impending arrival of American troops may have vanished in a cloud of collapsing rubble and twisted steel.

The fact that we successfully defeated Saddam's regime does not mean we won the war. We, alone, do not have the capacity to successfully save the Iraqi people from the violence in their cities, streets, and backyards. That is a big part of why I don't think that this was the right way to pursue the war on terror... not to mention the weakness of the intelligence recieved on the topic, the alterior intentions of the administration, etc. etc.

[WolfMoon]

Sorry,my heart isn't menstrating.


I stand by what I believe.


My instincts are rarely wrong and have saved me many an ass-handing.

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Sorry,my heart isn't menstrating.


I stand by what I believe.


My instincts are rarely wrong and have saved me many an ass-handing.

I'm glad your instincts are enough proof, to you, of the Iraqi peoples' safety.

But, uh, hey!...maybe facts would work a little better?

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ As many as 15,292 and at least 13,224. And my numbers may be behind, so I suggest you check the link. Just, you know, to *check your instincts*.

edit: Sorry... this was possibly too offensive, but that statement upsets me deeply.

[Disfunction]

My instincts are also rarely wrong, and history is rarely wrong. If I have to, I will type out an essay as to why democracy is not desirable for all nations, pertaining to historical occurences.

While the American Revolution did not occur independently of foreign influence, the "Iraqi Revolution" occured independent of its people.

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by WolfMoon

Dis,Mael explained the reason we're not attacking N.Korea right now.Besides the fact we don't have the man power to do that and deal with the extremists/guerillas/what-have-you.

If the people over there love their government sooooo much then way do so many of them spend years relocating theirs families to this country?Just because people are too scared to revolt doesn't mean they like their dictator.Of course their women love getting stoned in the street for crimes that are,for the most part,imagined injuries to a man's ego.What the hell was I thinking?People love being miserable!



meh...........

Ever heard the expression "the devil that you know and the devil you don't"? It's really profound. Just because you take away something bad and replace it with something else doesn't mean it will get better.

"Ow! I have a headache!"
"Here: have some genital herpes!"

No no no no no. I will not accept your twisting the words to suit your argument.

Removing Sadam= Good

Having no real justification=Bad

And do not give me that idealistic bullshit about caring about the well-being of their people. What the hell has the US government ever cared about people?

If such would be the case, they would make it illegal to employ children for labour in third world countries if they were being provided practically nothing for their work.

If such would be the case, cigarettes would be illegal lacking any benefit to society and causing harm to those around the user.

If such were the case, they'd put more money into taking care of the failing educational system rather than pumping money into a war that doesn't even affect the American people directly.

What utter bullshit. Let your "instincts" tell you whatever you want them to, but if you are telling me that it's being done because he was a "bad man" I suggest that you consider the fact that the government was looking into its neighbours yard rather than its own.

edit: someone told me that one of my friends killed themselves, and now told me that she was lying.... so that explains the anger... sorry.

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

"Ow! I have a headache!"
"Here: have some genital herpes!"

I feel compelled to tell you that upon reading this, I fell off of my chair, called over my room mate to read it, and we both laughed hysterically for a good while.

And to your other comments: Sing it, sistah!

To the edit: Euch, sorry. People can be so stupid.

[.BatteryPoison.]

Here's something I think Wolfmoon might get a kick out of. Being a big Queen fan and all. :D

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Removing Sadam= Good

Having no real justification=Bad

And do not give me that idealistic bullshit about caring about the well-being of their people. What the hell has the US government ever cared about people?

What utter bullshit. Let your "instincts" tell you whatever you want them to, but if you are telling me that it's being done because he was a "bad man" I suggest that you consider the fact that the government was looking into its neighbours yard rather than its own.

Among the MANY other reasons why removing Sadaam was justified, this reason ALONE is enough for me!!!

Women and Children in Iraq Mass Grave

A MASS grave being excavated in Iraq's "killing fields" has yielded evidence that the country's forces executed women and children under dictator Saddam Hussein.

US-led investigators have located nine trenches near the northern town of Hatra containing at least 300 bodies. They are believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.

The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.

The scientific exhumation is aimed at helping to convict Saddam of crimes against humanity.

"It is my personal opinion that this is a killing field," said Greg Kehoe, a US lawyer appointed by the White House to work with the Iraqi Special Tribunal. "Someone used this field on significant occasions over time to take bodies up there, and to take people up there and execute them.

"I've been doing grave sites for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this, women and children executed for no apparent reason," added Mr Kehoe, who spent five years in the Balkans. "It's a perfect place for execution."

The victims are believed to be minority Kurds killed during 1987-88. One trench contains only women and children, apparently killed by small firearms. Another contains only men, apparently killed by automatic gunfire.

Mr Kehoe said the women and children had been taken from their villages with their belongings, including pots and pans, shot - often in the back of the head - then bulldozed into the trench.

Some of the mothers died still holding their children. One young boy still held a ball in his tiny arms.

International organisations estimate more than 300,000 people died under Saddam's 24-year rule and Iraq's Human Rights ministry has identified 40 possible mass graves countrywide.


Authorities hope careful investigations of the sites will provide enough evidence to convict Saddam and other senior members of his regime, now in US detention, of crimes against humanity.

Investigators have excavated smaller mass graves before but never, they say, with such a forensic focus, aimed at gathering clear evidence of who was responsible.

Saddam is expected to face trial for crimes against humanity next year, but no timetable or details of the charges have yet been announced. During his reign, Saddam pushed hundreds of thousands of Arabs into Kurdish areas to force the locals out.

Human Rights Watch estimates that more than 50,000 Kurds were killed during a 1988 campaign against them.

http://www.aina.org/news/2004101391024.htm

This monster was and IS just as evil as Milosevic, Hitler, Mussolini, and many other genocidal madmen.

We may have had other items on the agenda, but the mass murder of innocent men, women and children IS justification ENOUGH. Just the fact that some of these women died clutching the bodies of their babies, some of them UNBORN makes me mind-numbingly angry as a mother.

He had to be stopped, and I hope the Iraqi people get an opportunity to serve him with some of the same justice he served them with.

[AlKilyu]

Well I voted today.

Turned my ballot into the box at my local library.



My work at bettering the world is complete.

Carry on.

[Disfunction]

Bettering? So you voted for BP?

[Disfunction]

[AlKilyu]

Heh...even the cartoon is more of an American that Disfunction.

[WolfMoon]

Tea,losing a house is a small price to pay for being alive.He could have been in there beating his wife.Then it would be loss of life as well as home.


As Disfunction seems to think I'm Queen of the World I have a few decrees:

1.Cigarettes are illegal,here have some pot.

2.Everyone is joining Mensa!

3.We're taking over Canada and Daz is my love-slave.


Feelings nothing morew than feelings............

Yes,but those instincts have kept me from being *****,getting killed and being put in the hospital.So the next time you hear that little voice in yer heard say.......This person looks dangerous

You go right ahead and ignore em.

It's nice of you to think that cartoon is funny.That's so sad.As I said before

MEH!

Technically women are the only people that can legally kill.

How about you tell us the wonders of Canadian society and it's laws.Or is bashing the american government all yoiu can do?






Battery,thanks babe!That was hilarious!The sound wasn't working but I know the song so well that it didn't matter.I thank you both as a fan of Queen and Bush.

Yeah,Alanis already said it but thanks Al.

[AlKilyu]

The Canadian health care system is sub-par at best, and won't be around much longer.

I don't have anything against Canada, they do take our ribbing rather well.

But with ANY group, there are assholes.

Hope is on the way! Fox News will be in Canada here shortly!

[Disfunction]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

The Canadian health care system is sub-par at best, and won't be around much longer.

I don't have anything against Canada, they do take our ribbing rather well.

But with ANY group, there are assholes.

1) Better to have a subpar healthcare system than not having one at all because you can't afford it.
2) Yes, Al, there are assholes in many groups. Thank you for addressing your behaviour in a very apt and to the point fashion.

Originally Posted by Wolfmoon

As Disfunction seems to think I'm Queen of the World I have a few decrees:

1.Cigarettes are illegal,here have some pot.

2.Everyone is joining Mensa!

3.We're taking over Canada and Daz is my love-slave.

Well... let's see... Pot isn't legal in Canada, so woo... That's a fun misconception.

Oh, and here's some stuff to consider about Canada: a far more religiously, politically and sexually tolerant society that DOESN'T give its citizens the right to own firearms with which they could, and have in the past, perform terrorist acts. It would have been a lot harder for that sniper in Washington to kill if he didn't have a gun, wouldn't it?

Edit: Wow.. I really need to just shut up.

[Disfunction]

Okay, decidedly, from here on in, my political opinion will remain absent from all political threads unless asked for. Odds of it being asked for are low, so you don't have to worry about my voice.

[.BatteryPoison.]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Okay, decidedly, from here on in, my political opinion will remain absent from all political threads unless asked for. Odds of it being asked for are low, so you don't have to worry about my voice.

Bah. Fuck that. If you've got a voice, raise it. S'what makes these threads keep going, someone not putting up with someone else's stance/ideas/values because they disagree. S'called influence and I can vouch that certain things you've brought up have influenced me.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

1) Better to have a subpar healthcare system than not having one at all because you can't afford it.



Oh, and here's some stuff to consider about Canada: a far more religiously, politically and sexually tolerant society that DOESN'T give its citizens the right to own firearms with which they could, and have in the past, perform terrorist acts. It would have been a lot harder for that sniper in Washington to kill if he didn't have a gun, wouldn't it?

Edit: Wow.. I really need to just shut up.

Hmm, in regards to Health care in Canada. Let's talk about how long ELECTIVE surgeries take to get in Canada. When I lived in Toronto, a Gallbladder surgery for example, that can be life-threatening if not treated, but is STILL considered elective there had a THREE YEAR waiting list. Also, when I lived there they had just changed the laws regarding how long a mother was kept in the hospital after giving birth, because the hospitals were booting mothers out 12 HOURS after giving birth, because the hospitals are so terribly overcrowded. I do not know what the length is now, as they were passing new laws when I came back to the states.

As far as "sub-par" is better than no health care at all.

Thats pretty friggin funny, because unless something has drastically changed that I am unaware of in Canada, you COULD NOT GET HEALTH CARE in Canada without an OHIP card. The neat thing about that little trick is that if you DID NOT WORK, you couldn't GET an OHIP card.

So let's see, the homeless in Canada are considered to be "SUB-PAR" by Canadian standards?

Because that is what it equates too.

You aren't gainfully employed or a dependent of someone who is gainfully employed, you don't deserve healthcare.

My son, who was an INFANT at the time was DENIED emergency health care because I did not have an OHIP card and I was not a citizen. Luckily I found a private doctor that thought this was absurd, and recognized the risk to my son's health and treated him for free for me.

If it was up to Canada's "socialized medicine " policy he could have been seriously injured or worse.

It is ILLEGAL in the United States at ANY HOSPITAL to be DENIED medical care because you DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE!!!

PERIOD!!

Illegal immigrants, homeless people, and people that just plain can't afford insurance are ALL entitled to health care from ANY hospital emergency room. Not to mention that there are MANY charity hospitals in the US that will see you, treat you, and perform surgery AT NO COST TO THE PATIENT.

Hmm, which system is actually SUB-PAR?

In response to Canada's does not permit it's citizens to own guns, the really cool thing about that lovely piece of Parliamentary genius is that in Canada, if someone breaks into your house, and you defend yourself, your family and your property is it LEGAL for the criminal (if he lives) or the criminals family to SUE YOU IN COURT!!

Yeah, thats right..

So some crack head breaks into your house, tries to kill you and steal let's say your coin collection, you fight back and beat him into unconsciousness with a baseball bat, then HE can turn around and SUE YOU in court.

Lovely little system isn't it?

Also when I lived there we had to pay TWO sales taxes.

A PST and a GST.

If I remember correctly I didn't have to pay the tax on his diapers or baby food. But still, how many other items a day does that tax?

My best friend at the time was living in Ontario working as a system administrator and said that not only did the SAME JOB here in the states pay $90,000 a year, where he only made $40,000 a year CDN, he said he also worked until JULY every year, just to pay his income taxes, which were somewhere around 47%!!!

So he worked almost half of the year to pay almost HALF of his income back to the government!!

Go Canada!!


Don't get me wrong, I really loved many things about living in Canada. Most of the people were super friendly..Much of it is very beautiful. But the sub-zero temperatures and the completely screwed up governmental system made it intolerable for me.

We may be screwed up in many ways as a nation, but there are definitely more bonuses to living here in the States!

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by .BatteryPoison.

Bah. Fuck that. If you've got a voice, raise it. S'what makes these threads keep going, someone not putting up with someone else's stance/ideas/values because they disagree. S'called influence and I can vouch that certain things you've brought up have influenced me.

Yeah, I ditto what Battery said..

We dig the debates..

Just because we don't always agree with each other doesn't mean we don't dig the hell out of the free exchange of ideas.

How lame would it be, if we all agreed with each other all of the time?

:twisted:

[Disfunction]

One thing about the whole healthcare thing...

I have one friend in New York that needed treatment for her cancer, but couldn't afford it.. only reason why she's not dead right now is that her parents were legally obligated to fork up the cash... but then again... I haven't heard from her in months...

Another friend can't afford inhalors for her asthma, so she has to sit through the attacks and hope she can get over them. Woo... great system.

[ice]

I haven't seen the insubordination by the 19 "Specialists" brought up in here yet.

I'd like to know what you all think..

I myself, think they should get their arses court-martialed for insubordination, and if possible, being idiots.. Why would they even enlist, if, as one girl said "it's too dangerous"?

In any other war, they'd be toast.

Did any Yanks in WWII in, let's say Bostogne, call their mommies on a cell phone and cry about it being cold and dangerous?? Huh? No?
Ok.. how about the Nazis?
When they were pushed back on the Russian front, and were stuck trying to cross the Dneiper river, they were being literally mowed down by Russian Ilyushin fighter planes..
If *any*, and I mean *ANY* of those Nazis complained to their mommies and asked them to raise hell in the media, they'd be shot. They'd be dead.
If you don't beleive me, read about it. Pick up a book.

Erm. I went off there.

-So, what do y'all think?

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Disfunction

One thing about the whole healthcare thing...

I have one friend in New York that needed treatment for her cancer, but couldn't afford it.. only reason why she's not dead right now is that her parents were legally obligated to fork up the cash... but then again... I haven't heard from her in months...

Another friend can't afford inhalors for her asthma, so she has to sit through the attacks and hope she can get over them. Woo... great system.

Yeah it is a great system.

I had to have THREE major surgeries last summer, the doctors even advised that I make out my will because they weren't sure I was going to make it through them. The cost for all three simultaneous surgeries was well over $70,000 American dollars and ALL OF IT was paid for BY MY GOVERNMENT!!

I was employed full-time since the age of 17, I paid my taxes, and when I needed help from my government they were there for me, and I didn't feel a bit bad asking for that help because I had contributed much to the system over the years.

Without their help paying for my surgeries I would not be here today having this debate with you Dis.

They also paid for ALL of my follow-up visits, ALL of my post-surgical medications AND ALL of this was while I was UNEMPLOYED.

:wink:

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

Hmm, in regards to Health care in Canada. Let's talk about how long ELECTIVE surgeries take to get in Canada. When I lived in Toronto, a Gallbladder surgery for example, that can be life-threatening if not treated, but is STILL considered elective there had a THREE YEAR waiting list. Also, when I lived there they had just changed the laws regarding how long a mother was kept in the hospital after giving birth, because the hospitals were booting mothers out 12 HOURS after giving birth, because the hospitals are so terribly overcrowded. I do not know what the length is now, as they were passing new laws when I came back to the states.

As far as "sub-par" is better than no health care at all.

Thats pretty friggin funny, because unless something has drastically changed that I am unaware of in Canada, you COULD NOT GET HEALTH CARE in Canada without an OHIP card. The neat thing about that little trick is that if you DID NOT WORK, you couldn't GET an OHIP card.

So let's see, the homeless in Canada are considered to be "SUB-PAR" by Canadian standards?

Because that is what it equates too.

You aren't gainfully employed or a dependent of someone who is gainfully employed, you don't deserve healthcare.

My son, who was an INFANT at the time was DENIED emergency health care because I did not have an OHIP card and I was not a citizen. Luckily I found a private doctor that thought this was absurd, and recognized the risk to my son's health and treated him for free for me.

If it was up to Canada's "socialized medicine " policy he could have been seriously injured or worse.

It is ILLEGAL in the United States at ANY HOSPITAL to be DENIED medical care because you DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE!!!

PERIOD!!

Illegal immigrants, homeless people, and people that just plain can't afford insurance are ALL entitled to health care from ANY hospital emergency room. Not to mention that there are MANY charity hospitals in the US that will see you, treat you, and perform surgery AT NO COST TO THE PATIENT.

Hmm, which system is actually SUB-PAR?

In response to Canada's does not permit it's citizens to own guns, the really cool thing about that lovely piece of Parliamentary genius is that in Canada, if someone breaks into your house, and you defend yourself, your family and your property is it LEGAL for the criminal (if he lives) or the criminals family to SUE YOU IN COURT!!

Yeah, thats right..

So some crack head breaks into your house, tries to kill you and steal let's say your coin collection, you fight back and beat him into unconsciousness with a baseball bat, then HE can turn around and SUE YOU in court.

Lovely little system isn't it?

Also when I lived there we had to pay TWO sales taxes.

A PST and a GST.

If I remember correctly I didn't have to pay the tax on his diapers or baby food. But still, how many other items a day does that tax?

My best friend at the time was living in Ontario working as a system administrator and said that not only did the SAME JOB here in the states pay $90,000 a year, where he only made $40,000 a year CDN, he said he also worked until JULY every year, just to pay his income taxes, which were somewhere around 47%!!!

So he worked almost half of the year to pay almost HALF of his income back to the government!!

Go Canada!!


Don't get me wrong, I really loved many things about living in Canada. Most of the people were super friendly..Much of it is very beautiful. But the sub-zero temperatures and the completely screwed up governmental system made it intolerable for me.

We may be screwed up in many ways as a nation, but there are definitely more bonuses to living here in the States!

Oh and umm surely you have more to say about ^ that, then V that?

:shock:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

One thing about the whole healthcare thing...

I have one friend in New York that needed treatment for her cancer, but couldn't afford it.. only reason why she's not dead right now is that her parents were legally obligated to fork up the cash... but then again... I haven't heard from her in months...

Another friend can't afford inhalors for her asthma, so she has to sit through the attacks and hope she can get over them. Woo... great system.