A question about the Batman mythos.

AshleyO · 08-03-2011, 07:12 PM

Batman is the only one that can ever stop the Joker. Ever. At least that's the point that the comics are trying to make.

Batman doesn't kill people. Ever.

Batman knows the Joker will kill and kill and kill every single time.

So if Batman can't kill the Joker, what's stopping Batman from crippling the Joker?

Ben Lahnger · 08-07-2011, 08:44 AM

Ever since The Killing Joke, it's been a problem for me. How does Batman not recognize that unless he finds a way to permanently neutralize The Joker, more people are going to die?

Clearly, locking The Joker in Arkham Asylum or other prisons isn't the answer.

Regardless of his code or ethics, the master detective must figure out a way to permanently remove the Joker as a threat, because his highest calling is to protect innocent lives, right?

Ah, but then they wouldn't have more stories to write.

The same conundrum applies to Lex Luthor and Brainiac, Doctor Doom and Magneto, and so on.

Sherlock Holmes always had his Moriarty. It's the weakness of the fiction writer ... come up with one really great villain, and it's hard to let go.

JCC · 08-07-2011, 08:51 AM

The logic which says it's okay to kill the Joker can easily be extended to all manner of individuals Batman encounters every day. As readers it's frustrating because we want the Joker to die but at the same time we know that the line between hero and villain is a blurry one for a vigilante like Batman and we don't want to see him reduced to that which he is fighting. Not to mention that as pussy liberal phaggots, actively wishing for someone's death isn't just thought-provoking for Batman, but for our own views. It's a timeless moral quandary. And crippling him is within the same critical vein: does Batman have the right to such severity?

Despanan · 08-07-2011, 10:42 AM

If you read "Kingdom Come" a superhero named "Magog" kills the joker after the joker slaughters a bunch of innocents.

It doesn't go well.

JCC · 08-07-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan

If you read "Kingdom Come" a superhero named "Magog" kills the joker after the joker slaughters a bunch of innocents.

It doesn't go well.

I can't decide if I think Kingdom Come is awesome or sucks. You decide for me.

Alan · 08-07-2011, 12:35 PM

Batman's a dickhead.

Ben Lahnger · 08-07-2011, 05:44 PM

Yeah, but he's OUR dickhead!

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

I have always been intrigued by the fact that Superman and Batman arose around the same time, and although they both approached the orphan-as-hero myth from different perspectives, both characters end up abiding by pretty much the same moral code.

I understand that was dictated in part by the social norms of the time, but even today (with a few sidesteps from official canon noted), it's still true.

Saya · 08-07-2011, 05:50 PM

From DC's perspective, there would be a lot of backlash if they incapacitated everyone's favourite villain.

But a) breaking his back or whatever probably wouldn't stop him. He'd just get around in a wheelchair and still find ways to create havok, or pull the strings of other villains. Being crippled didn't stop Barbara Gordon! Plus, severe spinal injury never puts anyone out forever in the DCU. Bruce Wayne got over his broken back and Barbara Gordon is also recovering.

Ben Lahnger · 08-07-2011, 06:14 PM

Well, if you want to look at it that way, not even death stops most of these characters for long!

Saya · 08-07-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Well, if you want to look at it that way, not even death stops most of these characters for long!

Come to think of it, hasn't Joker been resurrected via Lazarus Pit before?

Ben Lahnger · 08-07-2011, 07:14 PM

Who DOESN'T come back?

"It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him (Jason Todd) back." -- Denny O'Neil ~ back cover of "A Death in the Family" trade paperback (around 1989-1990)

Ah, regret; a dish best served cold ... and stale.

"If I had to do it again, I would certainly have kept my mouth shut." -- Denny O'Neil ~ "DC Comics: A Celebration of the World's Favorite Comic Book Heroes" (2003)

AshleyO · 08-07-2011, 10:25 PM

Ah, well. Under The Red Hood actually brought up the answer. Batman has no problem brutalizing people for the most part. He put the Joker in a full body cast for six months.

But for serious, I guess in some ways, crippling a nemesis would be very much like taking their life away in some sense.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way to permanently stop the Joker without resorting to killing him.

AshleyO · 08-07-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

Batman's a dickhead.

Yes he is, but I can't help but like his story.

CptSternn · 08-08-2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Batman is the only one that can ever stop the Joker. Ever. At least that's the point that the comics are trying to make.

Not true. A few others out there have defeated the Joker over the years. Some include other villians, Night Wing, and a few others.

Quote:

Batman doesn't kill people. Ever.

Also not true. For years Batman carried a .45 and blasted bad guys.

Quote:

Batman knows the Joker will kill and kill and kill every single time.

So if Batman can't kill the Joker, what's stopping Batman from crippling the Joker?

Batman HAS killed the Joker. There have been what? Seven Jokers now? After the Joker killed the second Robin, Batman hunted him down and shot him at point blank range with his .45

There have been a few Robins as well.

AshleyO · 08-08-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Not true. A few others out there have defeated the Joker over the years. Some include other villians, Night Wing, and a few others.

Also not true. For years Batman carried a .45 and blasted bad guys.

Batman HAS killed the Joker. There have been what? Seven Jokers now? After the Joker killed the second Robin, Batman hunted him down and shot him at point blank range with his .45

There have been a few Robins as well.

What comics are these? Because Saya didn't say anything about that and I don't remember Batman ever having a .45.

Ben Lahnger · 08-08-2011, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way to permanently stop the Joker without resorting to killing him.

Why doesn't he just ask Superman to banish the Joker to the Phantom Zone?

Also, Sternn is right in that Batman carried a .45 in the very early comics. But I don't remember anything about him killing The Joker, or about there being seven Jokers.

STERNN, sources please.

Mr.Doobie · 08-08-2011, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO

What comics are these? Because Saya didn't say anything about that and I don't remember Batman ever having a .45.

He may be referring to "The Goddamn Batman".

http://dr.jeebus.sydlexia.com/gdb.htm

Which most people either think is alright or they absolutely hate it.

Quote:

I can't decide if I think Kingdom Come is awesome or sucks.

A little of column "A" a little of column "B". The art was great, and some parts of the story were interesting, but some other parts of the narrative made no sense and I thought the whole "Apocalypse" thing was pretty over and ham fisted.

One thing that I find interesting is that the Joker has been killed off several times in alternate universe storylines, but it always seems to happen off camera, and it's almost always mentioned in passing. I always found that odd treatment for a character who's such a vital part of the DC universe.

Saya · 08-08-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Why doesn't he just ask Superman to banish the Joker to the Phantom Zone?

Also, Sternn is right in that Batman carried a .45 in the very early comics. But I don't remember anything about him killing The Joker, or about there being seven Jokers.

STERNN, sources please.

In Elseworld and other non canon comics there were different Jokers and Joker deaths, but in current continuity, there is only one.

Mr.Doobie · 08-08-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

In Elseworld and other non canon comics there were different Jokers and Joker deaths, but in current continuity, there is only one.

Wait. Joker died in current continuity? When was that? Don't tell me it had something to do with Hush.

Saya · 08-08-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Doobie

Wait. Joker died in current continuity? When was that? Don't tell me it had something to do with Hush.

No, I meant there is only one person called The Joker, AFAIK Joker hasn't even been Lazarus Pitted in current continuity. Its not at all like the multiple Robins like Sternn said.

Ben Lahnger · 08-08-2011, 06:56 PM

I just checked with my friend, William, who is an incredible Batman expert. He advised me of the following points.

1) Not only did Batman carry a .45 in a holster on the right side of his utility belt in the very beginning, but the bat plane was initially equipped with machine guns. They lasted until 1939-1940 (and made a memorable reappearance in Tim Burton's first Batman film.)

2) In "Batman: Year Two", the .45 made another appearance, only this time Batman carried it in a shoulder holster.

3) There have been alternate Jokers in Elseworlds and other alternate timelines, and there have even been copycat Jokers (there was even a female Joker that tangled with Batgirl in her early days), but there's only been one person who has been The Joker throughout the Batman continuity.

4) Batman (in proper Batman continuity) has never killed the Joker, but he has saved him from dying a few times. In fact, in "Final Laugh", Nightwing literally beat The Joker to death (he flat-lined and was clinically dead), and Batman saved him by administering CPR (to keep Nightwing from having blood on his hands.)

"When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories." -- Trickster, Underworld Unleashed

CuckooTuli · 08-09-2011, 08:15 AM

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/0...ills-murderer/

I have a hazy memory of reading one years ago in which Batman goes dark, and starts executing 'criminals' completely arbitrarily, to the point where he's killing old ladies for getting parking tickets. But that's literally all I can remember and I can't track it down through Google, so it's possible I'm mistaken.

Angelic Dissonance2 · 08-10-2011, 06:40 PM

+1

CptSternn · 08-11-2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/0...ills-murderer/

I have a hazy memory of reading one years ago in which Batman goes dark, and starts executing 'criminals' completely arbitrarily, to the point where he's killing old ladies for getting parking tickets. But that's literally all I can remember and I can't track it down through Google, so it's possible I'm mistaken.

That wasn't Bruce Wayne, that was Azrael from The Sword Of Azrael who took over as Batman when Bruce Wayne was made a quadriplegic by Bane.

Ben Lahnger · 08-11-2011, 06:00 AM

BTW, offtopic but loosely related:

I find the tweets from @God_Damn_Batman endlessly entertaining. For example, here's a few recent entries:

@God_Damn_Batman: Be happy you got a quarterly bonus at all, Alfred. Besides. That particular model of vacuum cleaner is top of the line.

@God_Damn_Batman: Sharpening batarangs, listening to Rammstein. Damn, I love Mondays.

@God_Damn_Batman: Discount Wednesday! Compound fractures are 20% off! Can't wait to make some happy customers.

@God_Damn_Batman: Why yes, I do have Shark Repellent. It's called MY FISTS.

Fun, fun, fun. The comments he makes to Robin are particularly amusing.