Students challenge ban on Gothic clothing

[DarkGentleman]

I saw this topic elsewhere and thought I should post it here to see what you guys and girls think of this.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...WS01/709140350

I just can't believe this shit, that's like we should tell the schools to ban the atheletic wear bearing NBA/NFL/MLB or NHL logos since they are worn by "gangsta" wannabes.

[NachtSorcier]

Schools are always going to challenge it, but this pissed me off:

Amaris -- a soft-spoken sophomore who said she'd never been suspended and had never received a grade lower than a C -- argues she has a right to her style of dress. She said her clothing is part of her Wiccan religion, a neo-pagan, Earth-centered faith.

Being Wiccan does not equal dressing goth, never has, never will. Adhering to gothic fashion is a choice, being Wiccan does not have any bearing on how you dress.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by DarkGentleman

I saw this topic elsewhere and thought I should post it here to see what you guys and girls think of this.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...WS01/709140350

I just can't believe this shit, that's like we should tell the schools to ban the atheletic wear bearing NBA/NFL/MLB or NHL logos since they are worn by "gangsta" wannabes.

Honestly, these kids have a point, but man are they embarrassments to the goth scene. Drawing tears running down your face in black eyeliner, every day? Claiming gothic clothing is part of the Wiccan religion? Where is the lawyer for these kids writing up an intelligent press release so that they don't run their mouths in interviews?

The quote from the school board member seems to indicate that the issue is more with the ridiculous makeup and piercings than with the all-black clothing. Piercing bans are stupid, but common. And quite honestly the makeup that one girl is wearing in the photo *is* distractingly awful. I'm sure they also don't allow ICP makeup, or KISS makeup to be worn every day, because c'mon people...a full face of makeup to sit in math class? It seems like if these kids toned it down just a little there wouldn't be a problem. The right to individual expression only goes so far when you're in high school, like it or not.

[DarkGentleman]

True,NachtSorcier it doesn't. The mainstream like to point fingers and say "Goths are either punks/witches/satanist/freaks/blah blah blah and the society believes them. (sigh)
My daughter is a B/B+ student and wears goth clothing to school with no problem. That's the least of my worries now.

But I see LadyLucretia has another point of view on this as I do agree as well.

I guess it's a win/lose situation here.

[CptSternn]

I lived with the same ban in high school. I was sent home and put in detention multiple times because of dress code violations.

I think if they have a dress code, they might as well institute school uniforms. It's not fair to say *some* students can wear what they want, and other can only wear what they want...if it looks like what the other students are wearing.

Your effectviely setting up a second-class society.

I mean, sure, if you rich you don't mind following the dress code - I have a few outfits I wear to the club, all black DKNY and a few Diesel outfits that are not only goth, but stylish. If you showed up in a nice goth Victorian outfit I'm sure they wouldn't say much either.

What they tend to target is people who wear black jeans/t-shirts. They then try and force these people to wear button up shirts, polos, or khakis.

Thats classism - they aren't just discriminating against the gothic subculture, what they are saying is that you need to dress in a more 'posh' manner - something in a different tax bracket.

I find that offensive. If the school isn't going to pay for such clothing upgrades, then they shouldn't block kids from wearing any outfits to school.

I also totally diagree with LadyLucretia - kids are supposed to be different, to experiment, to become who they are meant to become. If that means wearing makeup daily, then so be it. Who are you to dictate fashion? Who are you to dictate what clothing is distracting? Girls in short shirts with their mid-riffs showing are more distracting that a kid in KISS make-up during math class.

By saying it's ok to discriminate against some students you set the stage for making ok in the childrens minds to create a second class of people, and to discriminate against them for being different.

Your advise to 'tone it down' is probably the worst advise anyone could give them. Might as well say 'go ahead and forget about your hopes and dreams, because you must conform - being different is bad'.

If the ban was across the board, as I said, and a uniform was introduced, thats one thing - telling one group of students to not dress in the manner which becomes them, is discrimination and makes children think, incorrectly, that what they are doing is somehow wrong. It also sets the stage for them to discriminate against others, since they now see in their own lives institutionalised discrimination happening and society not only supporting it, but forcing them to comply.

[XxZanexX]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I think if they have a dress code, they might as well institute school uniforms. It's not fair to say *some* students can wear what they want, and other can only wear what they want...if it looks like what the other students are wearing.

Amazingly true, hadn't thought about that.

I find that dress-code incredibly bizarre. At my school, back when I was a young'un ( . . . okay, so I'm only 2 years out, but whatever.) the only thing I ever got in trouble for was "unnatural hair colors."

It's so difficult to define what would be considered "gothic-style clothing" that I can't possibly imagine them enforcing that code. If I were that girl I'd make sure the principal marched around the school with me and pulled every other kid in class wearing ANY eyeliner, regardless of where it was on their face, out of class.

The "gothic style" is such a broad and ambiguous term that is ever-changing. Are they going to suspend anyone who wears a black t-shirt to school, too?

I think if I were in that school district I'd make some sort of outlandish getup with, like, PVC piping and cardboard and stuff and basically dress myself up like a huge building sporting gothic architecture. Yay funny protests!

[Beneath the Shadows]

I honestly don't understand such a ban. When I was in high school, they tried a ban. They tried to ban Marilyn Manson shirts (and other stuff) because, according to the school officials, he "represented Satan."

About five minutes after I informed them that I myself considered myself a Satanist (and mentioned the terms "separation of Church and State" as "law suit"), they for some reason forgot about the ban they had proposed. Odd...

[Lapin]

This is ridiculous. They're essentially blaming a whole subculture for Columbine.

Yes, because if the Columbine kids hadn't been allowed to wear their "spooky" clothes, they never would have shot up the school. And if they take away these kids' "spooky" clothes, none of them will do it.

Real solid logic there.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats classism - they aren't just discriminating against the gothic subculture, what they are saying is that you need to dress in a more 'posh' manner - something in a different tax bracket.

Hmm well if that is the case then a compromise can be worked out. We'll just have them dress up in higher quality gothwear. Real corsets real clothes, not just a ton of t-shirts like in the picture. Frankly those t-shirts and clothes from the picture arn't the kind of clothes that would make any school district reconsider the anti-goth dress code.

[delicti]

The joy of the fall news cycle...

If the school is public, then they need to evaluate "public decency" standards and have a cohesive policy towards student expression. The ridiculous remarks that goth is a means towards violence would be torn apart in a court of law. For better or worse, public schools need to limit student free speech. It's when that standard is applied inconsistently that there's problems.

That being said, would somebody please tell the girl to shut up about Wicca? She's only hurting her case by making the claim that a non-recognized religion mandates that she wear black, which is bogus anyways. Shouldn't her parents be fielding questions for her? Where is the support network these kids should have?

[Amarantha]

The thing that angers me the most is some person who made a comment on the website the article was posted on about how everyone in his family were retail managers (by the way, asshole, NO ONE CARES!!) and also about how "those goth kids don't fit the bill to be hired"

How does he fucking know who they are, what they're about, and more importantly, how they would prepare themselves for a workplace! Jesus fuck! Clearly, you would dress differently for a job interview and/or work than you would for school! Especially a PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL.

And I think I saw an emo kid in that picture! If you're gonna fucking ban something, GET AN ACCURATE DEFINITION.

Goddammit anyway.

Kay I'm done now.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I think if they have a dress code, they might as well institute school uniforms. It's not fair to say *some* students can wear what they want, and other can only wear what they want...if it looks like what the other students are wearing.

Your effectviely setting up a second-class society.

Thats classism - they aren't just discriminating against the gothic subculture, what they are saying is that you need to dress in a more 'posh' manner - something in a different tax bracket.

I also totally diagree with LadyLucretia - kids are supposed to be different, to experiment, to become who they are meant to become. If that means wearing makeup daily, then so be it. Who are you to dictate fashion? Who are you to dictate what clothing is distracting? Girls in short shirts with their mid-riffs showing are more distracting that a kid in KISS make-up during math class.

By saying it's ok to discriminate against some students you set the stage for making ok in the childrens minds to create a second class of people, and to discriminate against them for being different.

Your advise to 'tone it down' is probably the worst advise anyone could give them. Might as well say 'go ahead and forget about your hopes and dreams, because you must conform - being different is bad'.

I agree that uniforms are more practical than a selective dress code. I disagree about the "classism" argument - Hot Topic charges about the same for bondage pants as preppy stores charge for pre-ripped and faded jeans. And the statement from the school official indicated that it was the makeup and piercings that were the issue, not their clothing.

I don't think excessive makeup is the only distraction that should be banned - I fully think midriff baring shirts, visible underwear, and otherwise provocative clothing is just as inappropriate. I also only said that excessive makeup should be banned (not piercings or unnatural hair color), and this would apply to the makeup football fans/KISS fans/clowns/etc. wear as well as goths, so it's not discriminatory towards any one group.

I was also given dozens of detentions for uniform violations, mostly for hair color. Toning it down would have been the smartest thing I could have done, at least until I was an upperclassman. Standing out only got me singled out as "problem" and basically harassed by school administrators.

[d.Nox]

I never got in trouble for what I wore to school while I was there; I never really wore anything out of the ordinary.

But, revisiting my high school two years later (I'd judge debate tournaments), I was asked to leave the building on account of my long overcoat (which was previously worn by a Mormon missionary(!)) and studded bracelet. This was before Columbine. Apparently I was corrupting the youth.

[kimaru]

There article said that her extreme make-up and lip ring were safety hazards...how the hell is eyeliner all over your face a safety hazard!? Is she going to get acne?

[NachtSorcier]

I find it very amusing that most of the comments on this article consist of people talking about how these kids are vying for attention and that they'll never be able to get a "real job." Well, the former is probably true, but since when does what you wear on your own time affect employment? It's not like I'm going to rat my hair and slap on my leather wrist band before a job interview - no, I'm going to comb my hair and put on a tie. Albiet, it'll be a black shirt and a silver tie, but still, it's tasteful.

Originally Posted by delicti

That being said, would somebody please tell the girl to shut up about Wicca? She's only hurting her case by making the claim that a non-recognized religion mandates that she wear black, which is bogus anyways. Shouldn't her parents be fielding questions for her? Where is the support network these kids should have?

I just wanted to mention that Wicca is recognized as a religion by the US government. I do agree, though, that the girl in question is an embarrassment to both goths and Wiccans.

[KontanKarite]

Doesn't fit the employment bill??

Are you bloody kidding me? I'm a VALUED employee of an insurance outsourcing company. I go to work in FULL goth regila. There are some days when I tone it down, but that's because I just don't bloody feel like wearing some of my better gear.

Oh and to top it off, I'm one of their best employees. Those managers need to STFU. A wardrobe does not reflect character or a willingness to work. I would imagine that most of these kids have enough sense to pull off at least some kind of "corporate" goth look. And really, what stores are they going to work for? OBVIOUSLY companies have their certain uniforms and such.

[CptSternn]

This is another off-shoot of the new baggy pants and hoodie bans.

* I have a new thread about this in the politics section, but will add this link...

http://news.**********/s/ap/20070916...nKD5z4j8Ks0NUE

Many major cities have now made it a crime, with large fines and jail time included, for wearing baggy pants or hoodies.

This started with the airports, claiming these clothes could be used to conceal weapons (isn't that what the metal detectors and all those security personnel are for?)

It then spread to sports stadiums, claiming 'terrorists' could use that clothing to hide stuff as well.

Once courts ok'ed the idea that companies, government agencies, and public organisations could ban clothing, once again using the 'terrorist' as a reasoning, it has now spread to other groups.

No coloured hair, no trenchcoats. Why? Doesn't matter - court precedent is set that says if clothing is considered a threat it can be banned.

So, using Columbine as an excuse, the power that be across American have now taken it upon themselves to ban hip-hop clothing, citing terrorist threats, and now goth clothing, also citing terrorist threats as the reasoning.

Much like the cookie-cutter '9/11' answer the politicians use to justify any actions they can't rationally explain, it appears the goth look is now the newest causality in the war on terror.

I mean with the current administration using 'terrorism' to justify everything from the budget, to drilling for oil in Alaska, its no wonder politicians and lower management types are using this excuse to justify whatever it is they want to enforce.

No baggy pants, no colour in your hair, no black clothes - CONFORM...but hey - your FREE! Of course, your freedom is much like your options for wearing clothes in high school - you can do whatever you want, as long as what you want falls in line with the current powers that be.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

I just wanted to mention that Wicca is recognized as a religion by the US government. I do agree, though, that the girl in question is an embarrassment to both goths and Wiccans.

My bad, I did some research and found that as of 1985, you are correct. That's not too bad for a religion that was only 30 some-odd years old! :-D

Well, she's a teenager, and I think it's ok to be a teenager and an embarrassment to just about anything you identify with. I get the feeling her case is only going to be hurt if she waves the "freedom of religion" flag all over the place, however.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

No baggy pants, no colour in your hair, no black clothes - CONFORM...but hey - your FREE!

HA! You know, it's starting to get funny watching you get all cause-head over insignificant, little things. I'm going to find you an exclusive about how banana splits discriminate against thin people, so you can tell us how much America sucks because of that, too. DAMN AMERICA AND THEIR OPPRESSIVE ICE CREAM SUNDAES!!!

Seriously though, what you're talking about has more to do with hip-hop culture and the very real pattern of violence that is manifest in that culture. There are also laws being passed because of indecent exposure violations that are common in that culture's fashion trends.

That doesn't justify the legislation that's being passed against it, but it certainly explains a good deal of the outrage. Rules passed against goth fashion are based largely on misconceptions, which makes it far more offensive, in my mind at least.

[thedoll]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

This is another off-shoot of the new baggy pants and hoodie bans.

* I have a new thread about this in the politics section, but will add this link...

http://news.**********/s/ap/20070916...nKD5z4j8Ks0NUE

Many major cities have now made it a crime, with large fines and jail time included, for wearing baggy pants or hoodies.

This started with the airports, claiming these clothes could be used to conceal weapons (isn't that what the metal detectors and all those security personnel are for?)

It then spread to sports stadiums, claiming 'terrorists' could use that clothing to hide stuff as well.

Once courts ok'ed the idea that companies, government agencies, and public organisations could ban clothing, once again using the 'terrorist' as a reasoning, it has now spread to other groups.

No coloured hair, no trenchcoats. Why? Doesn't matter - court precedent is set that says if clothing is considered a threat it can be banned.

So, using Columbine as an excuse, the power that be across American have now taken it upon themselves to ban hip-hop clothing, citing terrorist threats, and now goth clothing, also citing terrorist threats as the reasoning.

Much like the cookie-cutter '9/11' answer the politicians use to justify any actions they can't rationally explain, it appears the goth look is now the newest causality in the war on terror.

I mean with the current administration using 'terrorism' to justify everything from the budget, to drilling for oil in Alaska, its no wonder politicians and lower management types are using this excuse to justify whatever it is they want to enforce.

No baggy pants, no colour in your hair, no black clothes - CONFORM...but hey - your FREE! Of course, your freedom is much like your options for wearing clothes in high school - you can do whatever you want, as long as what you want falls in line with the current powers that be.

They actually have a point with the baggy clothes, you can hide various weapons.

Our school banned them after a demonstration to the school board where a kid showed up in baggy pants and a sweatshirt armed with rifles, hand guns, switchblades, and what have you. Of course concerned parents are going to ban anything that is proven to conceal weapons.

Pretty much anything can conceal weapons, but when thrown in their faces like that, parents are easily persuaded. Of course its eventually going to turn into a giant witch hunt trying to find the next virginia tech before anything happens, but in this instance they have a point.

Goth clothes are tight and should therefore be allowed

[Lapin]

I suppose I could hide weapons under my skirts. (Inspects skirt she is wearing) Maybe. If it wasn't bulky.

Might tear the fabric though....

[Graveyard.Crow]

The ban of clothing and stereotypes aside, drawing crap running down your face is just ugly.

[Underwater Ophelia]

I don't know why people get so riled up over this...it's clothing. That's all. Not only that, but if this stupid girl is so uneducated about "her own" beliefs, then screw her.

[kimaru]

It is true that you can hide a weapon pretty much any where and pretty much anything can be a weapon. So if people wanted they could probably ban pens and pencils in school...

[Lapin]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I don't know why people get so riled up over this...it's clothing. That's all. Not only that, but if this stupid girl is so uneducated about "her own" beliefs, then screw her.

Now, now, she's still young and learning. Let's just shake our heads and mutter about the good old days.

I'm a little embarrassed of her, frankly.