The Rebel Flag

[BADSEED]

I was just curious about what the general consenses is about the Rebel Flag. I mean, it did represent the south before the Civil War, so why are people given so much shit about it now. It doesn't represent slavery, people just automatically think if you have anything with a rebel flag on it it represents slavery and hate. "Heritage not Hate" or "Pride not Predudice" along with it, are these sayings wrong?
What if you had ancestors that pretty much had no choice than to fight in the civil war for the south and ended up dying or maybe more than one of your ancestors. I know at some of my family members funerals their caskets were covered with original rebel flags from the war because they were veterans of the civil war, is this wrong?
I just wanted to everyone's opinion on this issue.

[Absynthesis]

the thoughts and feelings that symbols evoke can be a stickyt subject for debate... take the swasdika (murdered the spelling i'm sure) for example... an ancient symbol that appears across a few cultures with subtle variations in appearance and meaning... today the sybmol has come to represent specific ideas which most intelligent people find to be unsettling at best...

the rebel flag does the same thing... while it is a part of american heritage, and whatever its original intended meaning(s) it has come to represent specific ideas for certain groups of people... while it may be used for nostalgia or its historical context, many people are offended, angered, or even frightened at the sight of it

not sure what question you are asking here, but there are many ins and outs to this sort of thing but in my humble view any sybol taht comes to represent hatred is to be avoided in my life... regardless of it's origins or historical context

[BADSEED]

Originally Posted by Absynthesis

the thoughts and feelings that symbols evoke can be a stickyt subject for debate... take the swasdika (murdered the spelling i'm sure) for example... an ancient symbol that appears across a few cultures with subtle variations in appearance and meaning... today the sybmol has come to represent specific ideas which most intelligent people find to be unsettling at best...

the rebel flag does the same thing... while it is a part of american heritage, and whatever its original intended meaning(s) it has come to represent specific ideas for certain groups of people... while it may be used for nostalgia or its historical context, many people are offended, angered, or even frightened at the sight of it

not sure what question you are asking here, but there are many ins and outs to this sort of thing but in my humble view any sybol taht comes to represent hatred is to be avoided in my life... regardless of it's origins or historical context

But the flag was not made to represent hatred.

[Absynthesis]

of course not... i am from the south and aware of the heritage as mentioned, but like i said sometimes the meaning that sybols come to represent, hoever diluted, overpower any previous intent

[BADSEED]

Where in the South?

[Absynthesis]

originally from Houston Texas, currently based in los angeles

also worked on a games project in Alabama for a year - during that time i lived across the street from a founding member of the NAACP who had some serious 'perspectives' to share with me about this sort of thing ... in fact, one of the neighbors in that small town came from a family that at one time OWNED the other's family and the two men were best friends ... the world is a funny place

[BADSEED]

Just to be the devils advocate here, the original swastika was rotated so each horizontal part was flat, plus it didn't have a circle.
I'm on the fence on this one I just wanted to see what people thought about it.

[Vorsuc]

I always find it amusing to see a confederate flag, half of me is tempted to tell these people "newsflash, you lost", course then the self preservation instinct kicks in and I keep my mouth shut.

Pretty much agree with the comments above, I feel if someone wants to fly the flag, they should feel free but shouldn't act surprised if people gain the impression the owner is a racist scumbag.

Understand the flip side though, back home the English flag (the St. George's cross) was adopted by UK hate group the BNP and for a while it became associated with racism and violence. Thanks to national pride during recent football and rugby tournaments over the last few years, it is becoming more and more socially acceptable to display a St. George's cross.

[Virulent Dryad]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

It's kind of like saying, "The swastika originally meant peace, so it shouldn't be inflammatory for me to wear it on a t-shirt". It's come to mean something completely different now, and by today's modern connotation it's a symbol of hate, not peace.

Does it not mean "good luck" originally?
In fact, the German symbol is actually known as a Hakenkreuz (Hooked Cross) and is based on occult worship of the Black Sun. It's not, contrary to popular belief, a reversed swastika.

[spookypurple]

It was originally a Hindu symbol for luck, but it spins the other way. The story went that Hitler reversed it so that it was coming from the right. And others may be quick to point out it's not a German symbol per se, but specifically a Nazi one.

What I found interesting was when my class of 7-8 year olds were studying WWII (we timed it so's to be studying Hinduism for Comparative Religions - I knew what was coming), the children found the idea fascinating that a symbol could so completely lose its meaning. I told a couple of them to take a copy of the Hindu version round to all the adults in school and ask them what was the first thing that came into their minds. No prizes for guessing what every single adult said.

In fact I had to calm a few of the children down when they came back. They were seething. "Don't you grown-ups know ANYthing?" Actually, it was quite amusing.

But I guess origins may matter little when it comes to what can be an emotive icon.

[Sobeh]

Symbols are designed to be visual maps that reference large bodies of knowledge that require context to properly extricate. Flying the Southern Flag on a political building, for example, is poor choice because the symbol is not being interpreted properly by most people who know about it, so it serves its purpose as a symbol poorly and should be replaced because of that. Flags on caskets are viewed by those attending the funeral, and the symbol is likely to be properly interpreted by most of the people there, thus as a symbol it works perfectly.

The Swastika actually has a HUGE history cross-culturally, and the simple form of the + with extensions coming off of each arm in either direction is one of the almost universal human symbols, akin to spirals and circles. That it has the symbolism it does in the West is of course due to WWII, and is an example of what Hitler was trying to do, namely usurp a very powerful symbol to energize his movement, and while the movement is now much smaller than it once was, the symbol has nevertheless, because of the massive atrocities that took place under it, taken on additional meanings for us. For someone to try to claim that they're using it in an antiquated sense, devoid of all modern connotations, is to ignore reality in a pretty severe fashion. The symbol has changed, and I suggest it will never again become a popular symbol of benefit here in the West that it once had.

Cultures relatively uninvolved in WWII still use it extensively, and outside of Europe and the US it isn't charged in such a negative way. The point is, when using symbols one must take into account that others will be ascribing meanings to it. Symbols, as I said, are meant to refer to other knowledges, and are not in themselves that knowledge.

Wiccans have had to wage a PR war in order that the Pentagram wouldn't be seen as a satanic symbol by the larger American culture. The Swastika has no such support group.

[tekajo]

Lufkin, Texas circa 1997. A small cinderblocked college dorm room. Fifteen guys, three girls, and me spread about the room as best as eighteen people in a small college dorm room can be. This little gathering consisted of one white person. Me. The stereo playing everything from Black Sabbath to Bone Thugs in Harmony.

Most of the group is huddled around the rug between the two beds watching a game of high stakes craps being played. How many of these guys did i know before that night? One.

On the wall above my bed is draped a rebel flag. No one gave a fuck. These southern cats, who have had blatant genuine non-artificial racism thrown into their face all their lives...did not give a fuck.

The door to my room was open. Everyone that walked by...didn't give a fuck.

The only person that even noticed the flag was there was my racist jock roommate when he came into a black filled room after baseball practice.

It actually amazed me that none of these guys even asked once about the "racist symbol"...this is a town only a few miles away from Jasper Texas where if no one remembers a handicapped black man was drug behind a pickup truck down an asphalt road until his body literally fell apart.

i asked later about it, the answer i got? "Fuck it, it's just a flag, a little scrap of fabric, it means only what I want it mean."

Obviously, i have a certain affinity towards the flag. To some of you that may merely exhibit my ignorance or plain idiocy.

i'm with the black guys. Fuck it, the Bible (of any sort) is a book of paper, the Flag is fabric, and the swastika is an ancient symbol for life.

*shrugs*

[tekajo]

Here ya go TStone...damn brackets.
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoun...lag%5B1%5D.jpg

[BADSEED]

I have a few confederate tees and flags for the sole reason of my ancestors who died fighting for the south. And I know some of these young men really had no choice but to grab their flintlock and fight for they're lives. And as one should be I'm proud of my heritage and ancestors. Although if I am somewhere that I think that it might offend someone I keep it low pro, but every veterans day and other relevant occasions I fly it with pride for my family members who died fighting in the war, but I also fly the American flag with GREAT pride as well. I actually own a Confederate flag that I don't fly cause it covered my great great great grandfathers (I believe the amount of greats are right) casket during his funeral since he was a veteran of that war. It is an honor and I take great pride in that flag being handed down to me.

[BADSEED]

Originally Posted by tekajo

Here ya go TStone...damn brackets.
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoun...lag%5B1%5D.jpg

Awesome Tek what museum was that in?

[BADSEED]

Sorry to buggingfuck you T but I'm at work halfway paying attention to my grammar.

[Virulent Dryad]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

I heard it was Greek for Peace, but whichever, its original meaning was not one of nazism.

That's very likely, I would have to see though. It meant something different to each culture so I'm not sure about Greeks, I was thinking the Hindu/Buddhist one.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by BADSEED

I was just curious about what the general consenses is about the Rebel Flag. I mean, it did represent the south before the Civil War, so why are people given so much shit about it now.

give a man a brain and a mouth and he'll find something in this world that offends him. such is the way of modern man. it's sad, actually, to take a step back and realize that there's such an overwhelming number of adults who spend much of their time whining and complaining about things that offend them and demanding that others have to see such things through their eyes, regardless of their own, personal beliefs and feelings.

[BADSEED]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

give a man a brain and a mouth and he'll find something in this world that offends him. such is the way of modern man. it's sad, actually, to take a step back and realize that there's such an overwhelming number of adults who spend much of their time whining and complaining about things that offend them and demanding that others have to see such things through their eyes, regardless of their own, personal beliefs and feelings.

Well said!

[Virulent Dryad]

It's easier that way. If you don't look at another person's point of view then you don't have to re-evaluate (have they removed the hyphen for this word yet?) your simple thoughts. In the long run, you can be a selfish bastard and it works out easier than having to look at it differently. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's definitely easier.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Virulent Dryad

It's easier that way. If you don't look at another person's point of view then you don't have to re-evaluate (have they removed the hyphen for this word yet?) your simple thoughts. In the long run, you can be a selfish bastard and it works out easier than having to look at it differently. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's definitely easier.

it's also a fascist mindset. i don't like it and so you shall not either. i don't think it's appropriate and therefore you will rail against it.

think fascism. think political correctness. think liberal politics.

[Virulent Dryad]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

it's also a fascist mindset. i don't like it and so you shall not either. i don't think it's appropriate and therefore you will rail against it.

think fascism. think political correctness. think liberal politics.

Think 1984.

[Virulent Dryad]

Originally Posted by TStone

A cessation of ignorance, is that too much to ask?

Yes. Ignorance is bliss. People do not want to change from that.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by TStone

Much offense is committed out of ignorance, so wouldn’t an edification of the offending issues help?

help whom, exactly and in what way?

Originally Posted by tstone

I mean, I know enough not to make my Jewish friend a bacon lobster sandwich, or to take him to Miami Ink to have our mainboard serial numbers etched into our wrists, even though I find nothing offensive about either—it would be crass of me to suggest he feel the same.

how about expressed offense at taking him to a restaurant where pork is served, despite the fact other non-pork items were on the menu? or taking him to said tattoo parlor where the iron cross is displayed? how would edification come into play here, exactly?

Originally Posted by tstone

And there it is; feelings, nothing but feelings.

are we talking about feelings or are we talking about taking on someone else's declared problem with a facet of life as a problem of our own? or even worse, are we talking about being forced to bow to someone's feelings just because they say we have to?

Originally Posted by loy

If I can understand another’s problems I can then not compound those with my own ignorance. Ignorance, in this issue, is the Rebel flag, which is the predominant symbol and the flag of war AND NOT THE FLAG of the Confederacy. As a southerner it pisses me off you fuckers can’t get it straight, even though we have the sons and daughters of the Confederacy out there trying to educate the masses (our own population included) still we are assaulted with incorrect symbolisms. If pictures of MLK wearing white robes and a hood while giving his Dream speech began circulating, don’t you think someone (wouldn’t you hope someone somewhere) would step up and say, “Hey, that’s wrong. You’ve got it all fucked up.”

ok, sure - the flag itself has to do with the confederacy during a time of war, the being the south who were dissatisfied with america and had decided to secede. the issue of slavery was in there, in some degree of obscurity and only came to prominence while the war was in full swing.

but the flag was also prominently displayed on the hood of the general lee, that sweet car in the dukes of hazard. and in that vein, if i'm an admirer of daisy duke's ass and legs and choose to wear a shirt displaying the flag in honor of her lower quarters, is it me being ignorant or others taking offense to my object of lust and passion?

that's my point. at what point do i lose my right to wear or display what i find attractive just because someone else finds it offensive?

Originally Posted by tstone

What? I don’t see shirts with the American Flag, flanged in gold border, with an eagle at the truck being worn around the mall. I mean, c’mon! What would happen if you were in the 16th street sector and flashed the Blood sign?

A cessation of ignorance, is that too much to ask?

again, i'll ask - for whom and to what degree?

[BADSEED]

but the flag was also prominently displayed on the hood of the general lee, that sweet car in the dukes of hazard. and in that vein, if i'm an admirer of daisy duke's ass and legs and choose to wear a shirt displaying the flag in honor of her lower quarters, is it me being ignorant or others taking offense to my object of lust and passion?

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW!
Man I used to love the dukes of Hazzard til Boss Hog croaked!