The Nature Of Faith

[M.Valdemar]

This thread was inspired by the latest Witchcraft postings.

I am only discussing the CONCEPT of faith.

I am Not endorsing Any religion nor preaching. (though it may sound like it)

All the comments about faith that I have recently read are ignoring the basic premise of Faith. Faith requires no science nor proof. If you can prove something, then faith is irrevelant. The strength and measure of faith is in it's belief, not in it's proof or existence. Faith is exempt from the scientific method, so I understand scepticism.

For example,
Imagine a loved one saying to you - we must play a game. Guess the coin in a hand behind my back.

Loved one - "There is a coin in one of my hands - I can't show you which one it is in, but I need you to trust me my (son, daughter, husband etc.) it is in my right hand. The meaning of this will eventually become clear; I assure you it is not a game".

Which one would you guess/choose?

Don't like my example? How about someone far wiser?

"So tell me not of avatars. Show me not your proof that yours is the true god. I grant you your beliefs without question and without judegement, but if you grant me what is in my heart, than such tangible evidence is irrelevant.

R.A. Salvatore
Siege of Darkness

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by M.Valdemar

For example,
Imagine a loved one saying to you - we must play a game. Guess the coin in a hand behind my back.

Loved one - "There is a coin in one of my hands - I can't show you which one it is in, but I need you to trust me my (son, daughter, husband etc.) it is in my right hand. The meaning of this will eventually become clear; I assure you it is not a game".

Which one would you guess/choose?

I find this to be a poor example of the kind of faith that religious belief requires. Where as the loved one has or hasn't gained your trust over time so that your decision is actually based on your experience with this person.

And second, it is pretty easy to prove or disprove which coin is actually in their hand, improving your understanding of their integrity regarding coin hiding.

However, religions tend to have bad track records of lies and abuse... so one might want to modify this example from "loved one" to " your creepy uncle who used to touch you".

Faith itself implies believing something that may be without merit, casting logic and reason aside, to cling on to one belief that may even be demonstrably untrue.

Consistently believing untrue ideas because one thinks they are nice, warm or cuddly, may lead to magical thinking and bad decision making.

One thing that may help put this in a more stark relief, would be to take a serious look into cults. Brainwashing and the like, its easier than you think and its happened to most of us at some point in time (usually childhood).

[Ben Lahnger]

I have faith in myself, because I know what abilities I've developed and what information I have learned.

Believing in a deity because of having "faith" is a long wait for a train that you have never seen, despite the lack of a station, schedule or tracks. It's an exercise in mental self-manipulation, beyond all reasoned input.

Belief in something being the self-contained reason and the justification for that belief is self-serving and irrational. Stating that faith is exempt from the scientific method does not make it so ... the condition of having "faith" in the absence of evidence is still irrational.

If someone says, "I have faith, and I accept that it is an irrational pursuit," I'm definitely willing to accept that statement and their right to pursue it.

This is coming from someone who thinks the recent theoretical and scientific breakthroughs towards developing a Unified Theory of Everything incline me toward considering intelligent design ... at the hands of some coolly logical, unemotional intelligence that cares less about the well-being of humans than I care about the emotional feelings of the critters in an ant farm.

This clip from "Through The Wormhole" with Morgan Freeman might be of interest in regards to my last paragraph, but doesn't bear much on the OP's point.

Humans are highly susceptible to irrational beliefs and will cling to them en mass for as long as no one can disprove them. From commonly accepted historical fallacies such as "the world is flat", "if man were meant to fly he'd have wings" and "no one will ever beat the 4 minute mile" to more recent phenomena such as cargo cults, Egypt's slaughtering of pigs in response to the swine flu, the Chinese stock bubble of 2007 and the world's belief that Justin Bieber has talent, the evidence is clear that people in large groups have a willingness to believe things for which there is no evidence. A determined willingness. A desire to have "faith" that is in fact, in my mind, a character flaw.

[Saya]

Faith in yourself and others is good, but I think doubt is just as important, if not more so, in religious practice. Its too easy to become a fanatic otherwise.

[Ben Lahnger]

True enough. Unquestioning faith in anything can definitely be a vice. Even unquestioning faith in oneself.

Or, as Clint Eastwood put it so well ... "A man has got to know his limitations."

[Angelic Dissonance]

I agree with Saya.

[JCC.]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

it is pretty easy to prove or disprove which coin is actually in their hand, improving your understanding of their integrity regarding coin hiding.

However, religions tend to have bad track records of lies and abuse... so one might want to modify this example from "loved one" to " your creepy uncle who used to touch you".

Shit that was funny. The only way it could be better is replacing "Regarding" with "Vis-à-vis."

[ape descendant]

Or, we could replace "regarding" with ... yer mom!!!

[JCC.]

And then you go and ruin. Nice going, moron.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Saya

Faith in yourself and others is good, but I think doubt is just as important, if not more so, in religious practice. Its too easy to become a fanatic otherwise.

I agree with this...

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by JCC.

And then you go and ruin. Nice going, moron.

Any time, troll.

[Alan]

He's the troll?
You're the one saying this makes sense:

improving your understanding of their integrity yer mom coin hiding.

[Solumina]

How about instead of changing "regarding" we change "coin hiding"?

[ape descendant]

Oh, come on. I figured a little bit of absurd humor would be perfectly appropriate on a thread regarding the nature of faith.

[Solumina]

Nope, not allowed

[JCC.]

The reason the sentence is so great is because of the usage of the term "Coin Hiding." The way it's used, the structure, it's brilliant! It's like the good punch line to a joke you thought was going to fucking suck.

[Ben Lahnger]

See my problem with that analogy is that in the churches -- they don't do that much coin hiding.

I suggest modifying the sentence thus:

it is pretty easy to prove or disprove which penis is actually in their hand, improving your understanding of their integrity vis-à-vis penis hiding.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Oh, come on. I figured a little bit of absurd humor would be perfectly appropriate on a thread regarding the nature of faith.

Saying stupid shit in the name of "oh-my-god-so-random" is not the same as absurd humor.
And saying "yer mom!!!" is especially not absurd humor. It's junior high trash talk.

That perky girl with hello kitty ears that gets on top of a table in the food court on command and shouts "I'm so random!" is not a Dadaist. She's just stupid.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Alan

That perky girl with hello kitty ears that gets on top of a table in the food court on command and shouts "I'm so random!" is not a Dadaist. She's just stupid.

True story...

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Alan

Saying stupid shit in the name of "oh-my-god-so-random" is not the same as absurd humor.
And saying "yer mom!!!" is especially not absurd humor. It's junior high trash talk.

That perky girl with hello kitty ears that gets on top of a table in the food court on command and shouts "I'm so random!" is not a Dadaist. She's just stupid.

Don't hold back Alan, tell us how you really feel!

[JCC]

If somebody says that your joke isn't funny then just walk away and save some better ones for later AD, trying to claw back that lost dignity simply will not work.

[ape descendant]

*hangs head in shame*

[KontanKarite]

FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE! ...wait.

[Still Jack]

I prefer to have to doubt in anything and everyone. It makes things easier in the long run.

[KontanKarite]

Still Jack... that sounds very exhausting.