Far from ground zero, opponents fight new mosques

[Tumor]

I personally don't think that any religion should be allowed to build (specifically) houses of worship anywhere... if someone wants to worship whatever god they believe in with like-minded people, what's so wrong about doing so in the privacy of one's own home? However, that's just my opinion, and beyond that, I simply don't care. I may not approve of the idea of building a mosque (or a church, or a temple, etc.), but if they can get the necessary permits and funds and everything they need, then whatever.

As for community centers, I'm a little less concerned with those. They have other programs which generally have a positive impact on individuals (and as such on the community), so I see no reason to oppose them.

[CptSternn]

Best commentary on this fiasco so far!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

[OnyxBat]

I partly agree with you Tumor, we should be able to practice our beliefs at home and not be judged about it. But we should also have a place that represents it and it also to share with other people. I doubt they are going to get the funding, constructors are striking against ground zero.

[Ben Lahnger]

I suspect they are going to get this community center built. They have enough clear-thinking people with power, money and resources on their side who can see how this will benefit the community. So I don't see the protesters being a long-term problem. And with times being hard and jobs in short supply, there WILL be people who will work on the project ... no worries there.

[CptSternn]

Whats really sad is people are trying to say that ground zero is some sort of 'hallowed ground'.

First off, there are strip clubs less than two blocks away. Does this mean they are hallowed as well?

What does that say about the mentality? Strippers are ok, as long as they aren't from a Middle Eastern background?

More importantly, if it was such a hallowed place, why is it still just a big hole in the ground? As John Stewert pointed out a while back, have a look at the Burj Al Arab hotel in Dubai.

http://www.jumeirah.com/en/hotels-an.../burj-al-arab/

It's the worlds largest hotel. It was built on a man-made island. They started construction in 2006 and had it finished by 2009. To date, nothing is at ground zero other than a hole, a bit of steel which has taken years to put in place and of last week they put in a couple of trees.

Also the plans for what they intend to put there seem more insensitive than anything else in the area. Remains for hundreds of people who died at ground zero are still there and will be there forever. The new plans for ground zero begin with putting in what is basically a strip mall, complete with a Starbucks, along with other fast food joints and similar chains.

On top of what is what can only be described as a mass grave will be a Burger King or McDonalds.

Yet no one is complaining about this.

How 'hallowed' can it be if they are slapping fast food on top of it sure?

Then again, almost ten years on and they have yet to get it going, so its not like its going to happen anytime soon sure.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Whats really sad is people are trying to say that ground zero is some sort of 'hallowed ground'.

First off, there are strip clubs less than two blocks away. Does this mean they are hallowed as well?

What does that say about the mentality? Strippers are ok, as long as they aren't from a Middle Eastern background?

If strippers had destroyed the WTC, I'm sure people would object to the opening of strip clubs instead. The mentality is similar to avoiding crocodiles after having your hand bitten off by a crocodile.

More importantly, if it was such a hallowed place, why is it still just a big hole in the ground?

Because construction hasn't finished, and in the meantime construction materials need to be placed somewhere.

As John Stewert pointed out a while back, have a look at the Burj Al Arab hotel in Dubai.

http://www.jumeirah.com/en/hotels-an.../burj-al-arab/

It's the worlds largest hotel.

By height, it's fourth largest. By number of rooms, it's actually quite tiny, with only 202.

It was built on a man-made island. They started construction in 2006 and had it finished by 2009.

Construction started in 1994.

To date, nothing is at ground zero other than a hole, a bit of steel which has taken years to put in place and of last week they put in a couple of trees.

The hole was deepened so supports could be directly attached to the bedrock below. The 9/11 memorial (the trees of which are part of) will be completed next year. Tower 7, which was also destroyed on 9/11, has already been completely rebuilt over the course of 4 years and now stands at 52 stories.

Also the plans for what they intend to put there seem more insensitive than anything else in the area. Remains for hundreds of people who died at ground zero are still there and will be there forever. The new plans for ground zero begin with putting in what is basically a strip mall, complete with a Starbucks, along with other fast food joints and similar chains.

On top of what is what can only be described as a mass grave will be a Burger King or McDonalds.

I'm sure you've heard and seen renditions of what's referred to as the Freedom Tower? They're in the process of building it. Not a strip mall. A tower with over 100 stories.

Yet no one is complaining about this.

People generally don't complain about what's not happening. Unless they want it to happen.

Then again, almost ten years on and they have yet to get it going, so its not like its going to happen anytime soon sure.

One tower completed and already in use, a memorial almost completed, and the main tower well under it's way with a completion date that's about two and a half years away. You need to get better information.

Additionally, there are reasons why it's taken as long as it has. One of the upper management people in charge of the reconstruction resigned unexpectedly, which screwed them up considerably. During the original clean-up toxic dust from the wreckage started causing health issues, so all progress halted until HAZMAT teams cleaned it up. There's been people who have been protesting the reconstruction effort. And finally the American economic situation has slowed things down.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

I partly agree with you Tumor, we should be able to practice our beliefs at home and not be judged about it. But we should also have a place that represents it and it also to share with other people. I doubt they are going to get the funding, constructors are striking against ground zero.

Technically, you SHOULD be judged about it. Every religious belief should be held up to harsh scrutiny.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Tumor

If strippers had destroyed the WTC, I'm sure people would object to the opening of strip clubs instead. The mentality is similar to avoiding crocodiles after having your hand bitten off by a crocodile.

That is a silly argument to make. So its only hallowed when it comes to Muslims, or in this case, them wanting to build something near by. 'Hallowed' means what it says. When you use it to discriminate against one single group, thats called discrimination. Trying to justify it making it a 'holy' land mark and then only making the only thing 'holy' or 'hallowed' about it the fact that one group of people can't be near it, thats racism.

Because construction hasn't finished, and in the meantime construction materials need to be placed somewhere.

Thats an excuse. Not a very good one either. Are you saying the reason it has taken almost a decade to get anything built is because they couldn't find a place to put construction materials? Thats a weak argument at best. It ranks up next to the dog ate my homework.

By height, it's fourth largest. By number of rooms, it's actually quite tiny, with only 202.

Construction started in 1994.

That includes the time it took to make a man-made island. And its a 7 star hotel - have you seen the pictures? I'm actually looking at staying there next Christmas. And fourth largest still puts it in the category of one of the worlds largest, built in a matter of years on a made made island.

The hole was deepened so supports could be directly attached to the bedrock below. The 9/11 memorial (the trees of which are part of) will be completed next year. Tower 7, which was also destroyed on 9/11, has already been completely rebuilt over the course of 4 years and now stands at 52 stories.

'Will be completed next year' is what they said last year. You can't bank on something based on speculation. Well you can, but the reality is ten years on they still are making claims of stuff that is supposed to happen.

I'm sure you've heard and seen renditions of what's referred to as the Freedom Tower? They're in the process of building it. Not a strip mall. A tower with over 100 stories.

Yes, and the bottom part of the 'freedom tower' is going to be commercial shops, including Starbucks and McDonalds.

People generally don't complain about what's not happening. Unless they want it to happen.

My point exactly. Which is why I was complaining. Seems a bit daft ten years on that nothing has materialised there.

One tower completed and already in use, a memorial almost completed, and the main tower well under it's way with a completion date that's about two and a half years away. You need to get better information.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38895776

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf...ebuilding.html

I'm not the one calling it slow, the media is. Again, ten years is a long time.

Additionally, there are reasons why it's taken as long as it has. One of the upper management people in charge of the reconstruction resigned unexpectedly, which screwed them up considerably. During the original clean-up toxic dust from the wreckage started causing health issues, so all progress halted until HAZMAT teams cleaned it up. There's been people who have been protesting the reconstruction effort. And finally the American economic situation has slowed things down.

Lots of excuses, none of which really matter. I mean, if a country can't build a building in a decade, what does that say? For a 'hallowed' site, you think they would put a bit more effort into the project sure.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

That is a silly argument to make. So its only hallowed when it comes to Muslims, or in this case, them wanting to build something near by. 'Hallowed' means what it says. When you use it to discriminate against one single group, thats called discrimination. Trying to justify it making it a 'holy' land mark and then only making the only thing 'holy' or 'hallowed' about it the fact that one group of people can't be near it, thats racism.

Talk about silly arguments. Perhaps you didn't notice in my last post, but I completely ignored the "hallowed ground" argument due to the fact that Ground Zero is not hallowed ground. Hollowed, yes. Hallowed? Not by any stretch of the imagination. My point is that when people are hurt, many of them often react to the source of the injury in much the same way regardless of who or what caused the injury. Whether it be Muslims, strippers, or crocodiles.

Thats an excuse. Not a very good one either. Are you saying the reason it has taken almost a decade to get anything built is because they couldn't find a place to put construction materials? Thats a weak argument at best. It ranks up next to the dog ate my homework.

It's one of several reasons, and if you don't want to accept that, then that's just too bad for you.

That includes the time it took to make a man-made island.

It took three years to make the island itself.

And its a 7 star hotel - have you seen the pictures?

So? Are you suggesting that it takes considerably longer to move a finely upholstered chair than it does to move one made out of cheap materials?

I'm actually looking at staying there next Christmas.

You seriously want us to believe that you can afford $1,000+ per night (and that's just for the cheapest suite, never mind food, travel, and other expenses)?

And fourth largest still puts it in the category of one of the worlds largest, built in a matter of years on a made made island.

You said "the largest." Not "one of the largest."

'Will be completed next year' is what they said last year. You can't bank on something based on speculation. Well you can, but the reality is ten years on they still are making claims of stuff that is supposed to happen.

Well, since you just said I can't bank on something based on speculation, then I guess I can't bank on that statement, either.

Yes, and the bottom part of the 'freedom tower' is going to be commercial shops, including Starbucks and McDonalds.

First of all, you apparently don't understand the difference between a strip mall and a sky scraper. Secondly, so what it they put those things there? What, you think people that are going to work in that building won't want to grab a bite to eat and a cup of coffee on the way in? What better way to make sure they can actually do that, especially if they're running late?

My point exactly. Which is why I was complaining. Seems a bit daft ten years on that nothing has materialised there.

Let me get this right... You complain that they're building a strip mall. You wonder why no one complains about it. I point out that they're not building a strip mall. I also point out that since they're not building a strip mall, there's no reason for them to complain about the building of a strip mall. And suddenly that was your point?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38895776

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf...ebuilding.html

I'm not the one calling it slow, the media is. Again, ten years is a long time.

It's not all that slow when work grinds to a halt for a good chunk of the year thanks to winter. Or are you going to say that sub-zero working conditions constitutes just another excuse?

Lots of excuses, none of which really matter.

Not excuses. Reasons.

I mean, if a country can't build a building in a decade, what does that say? For a 'hallowed' site, you think they would put a bit more effort into the project sure.

Obviously, as you yourself demonstrated, it says whatever someone wants it to say. By itself, it says nothing.

[Ben Lahnger]

Actually, considering how much of a gaping wound was left in the earth from that disaster, with molten segments of iron beams strewed through the concrete and earth topsoil that was further laden with toxic waste and lung-searing dust, I'm amazed the site was cleaned up as quickly as it was. Then there was much hard fought debate about what should be built there and what kind of memorial should be placed. And then the various logistical concerns of actually building there have got in the way at times.

All in all, I am amazed at what has been built there so far. The supercilious conversation about how long it is taking to rebuild there is irrelevant to the topic at hand and more importantly, ill advised.

Also, the dumbest point to be made here so far is that one about there being shops and fast food restaurants in the new buildings. There were such places in the previous buildings, so why not? It makes economic sense ... that's why so many large building complexes engage in the same practice.

[CptSternn]

I'm seeing lots of excuses, and not a lot of real arguments.

Back to my original point - if this was 'sacred' or 'hallowed' ground, then you would think more would have been done up to now.

@Ben -

Sure they were there before, and it is a commercial site, so they will be there again, but it again emphasizes my point that it seems the sacred/hallowed/holy ground thing only pops up when people mention Muslims.

Everything else from strip clubs to McDonalds is fine, just no Muslims.

People can try and justify it anyway they want, but it's still racism.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Everything else from strip clubs to McDonalds is fine, just no Muslims.

People can try and justify it anyway they want, but it's still racism.

Agreed, but you've made too much of the shops. Get back to addressing the bigotry directly.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I'm seeing lots of excuses, and not a lot of real arguments.

Then open your eyes and stop with the denial.

Back to my original point - if this was 'sacred' or 'hallowed' ground, then you would think more would have been done up to now.

Even if it was hallowed ground, which it isn't, why would you think such a thing? What would be different?

Everything else from strip clubs to McDonalds is fine, just no Muslims.

People can try and justify it anyway they want, but it's still racism.

If it's so "racist," can you explain why the Muslim community center is not only going ahead as planned, but doing so with relative ease, while it took nearly seven years to negotiate the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed when the South Tower collapsed?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Tumor

If it's so "racist," can you explain why the Muslim community center is not only going ahead as planned, but doing so with relative ease, while it took nearly seven years to negotiate the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed when the South Tower collapsed?

Relative ease?

Dude: MASSIVE protests, worldwide news about some douche burning a Koran, Some douche actually ripping pages out of a Koran at the protest, A taxi driver got his throat slit just for "being musilum".

Sterrn is an idiot who uses lies and half-truths to back up his position constantly, but he is on the right side in this instance.

It's the worst kind of politically motivated racism.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Relative ease?

Dude: MASSIVE protests, worldwide news about some douche burning a Koran, Some douche actually ripping pages out of a Koran at the protest, A taxi driver got his throat slit just for "being musilum".

Yet the plans for this community center have come to where they are now in barely over a year in spite of the opposition, with groundbreaking of the project expected to be within the next few months. Meanwhile, the aforementioned church has had none of that opposition, and yet it's taken them eight years to get permission to rebuild. So, yes, "relative ease" is more than an apt description.

Sterrn is an idiot who uses lies and half-truths to back up his position constantly, but he is on the right side in this instance.

Then why does he need to lie? The only side he's on is, as usual, the side that makes America and Americans look as bad as possible.

It's the worst kind of politically motivated racism.

While I wouldn't call it racism, as Muslims don't constitute a race, I do agree that there is extreme prejudice, and that such prejudice is short-sighted in unnecessary.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tumor

Yet the plans for this community center have come to where they are now in barely over a year in spite of the opposition, with groundbreaking of the project expected to be within the next few months. Meanwhile, the aforementioned church has had none of that opposition, and yet it's taken them eight years to get permission to rebuild. So, yes, "relative ease" is more than an apt description.

The building has been used for worship before the plans, and owned by the company that is building the community center. When it was purchased they didn't have the plans for the community center so it wasn't like there was any suspicion it was going to be a community center. Also, it was not given landmark status so they're free to knock down the building as they please. And I doubt in their permit applications that they said "mosque", and the controversy isn't as old as the plans, how many people knew this when the plans were made last year? The St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church on the other hand had to sell their old property and buy a new one. Also, part of the reason its taking so long, is that they want the Port Authority to cough up more money and rebuild it for them, although they already paid millions for their old property and pledged another 20 million to make the new building bomb proof. So there's your tax dollars at work.

[vindicatedxjin]

[Despanan]

Then why does he need to lie?

Because he's CRAZY.

He's the left-wing equivalent of Deadman for chrissakes.

[Saya]

I saw this the other day and bookmarked it for the next time Sternn pisses me off with his Sternn thing: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Derailing for Dummies

You know how it is. You’re enjoying yourself, kicking back and relaxing at the pub or maybe at the library; or maybe you’re in class or just casually surfing the internet, indulging in a little conversation. The topic of the conversation is about a pertinent contemporary issue, probably something to do with a group of people who fall outside your realm of experience and identity. They’re also probably fairly heavily discriminated against - or so they claim.
The thing is, you’re having a good time, sharing your knowledge about these people and their issues. This knowledge is incontrovertible - it’s been backed up in media representation, books, research and lots and lots of historical events, also your own unassailable sense of being right.

Yet all of a sudden something happens to put a dampener on your sharing of your enviable intellect and incomparable capacity to fully perceive and understand All Things. It’s someone who belongs to the group of people you’re discussing and they’re Not Very Happy with you. Apparently, they claim, you’ve got it all wrong and they’re offended about that. They might be a person of colour, or a queer person. Maybe they’re a woman, or a person with disability. They could even be a trans person or a sex worker. The point is they’re trying to tell you they know better than you about their issues and you know that’s just plain wrong. How could you be wrong?

Stern's thinking in a nutshell.

He has had his times of bringing up some relevant material but then kills it by dismissing any relevant arguments that work against his P.O.V.

[Ben Lahnger]

People need to confront the protesters head-on with logic.

ISLAMIC COMMUNITY CENTER "PARK 1" is to RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS as THE YMCA is to THE KKK.

The "Park 1" Islamic Community Center doesn't represent the terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center, so the protesters complaints are unjustified. And I am actually appalled at the amount of sympathy the protesters have garnered for their inappropriate outrage.

Moderate Muslims were among the people who died in those towers, were among the ranks of firefighters and police who gave their lives in service to their fellow Americans that day. Moderate Muslims go to Ground Zero to grieve for their losses. They work in the area every day, and say prayers to Allah on the street nearby and at Ground Zero.

These are not the enemy. They are our American brothers and sisters.

From the New Yorker (SOURCE):

Back Issues: Mosque Stories
September 15, 2010

In his Comment in this week’s issue, Lawrence Wright discusses the increasingly charged public debate over plans to construct Park51, an Islamic community center, several blocks north of Ground Zero. In the piece, he characterizes the original intent of the center:

The project was designed to promote moderate Islam and provide a bridge to other faiths. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Sufi cleric leading the effort, told the Times, in December, “We want to push back against the extremists.”

The idea of a moderate Muslim presence at Ground Zero is not a novel one, as Samuel G. Freedman notes in a recent Times article:

[Not] only were Muslims peacefully worshiping in the twin towers long before the attacks, but even after the 1993 bombing of one tower by a Muslim radical, Ramzi Yousef, their religious observance generated no opposition. “We weren’t aliens,” Mr. Abdus-Salaam, 60, said in a telephone interview from Florida, where he moved in retirement. “We had a foothold there. You’d walk into the elevator in the morning and say, ‘Salaam aleikum,’ to one construction worker and five more guys in suits would answer, ‘Aleikum salaam.’ ”

The notion of Muslims or mosques as culturally alien is a relatively recent phenomenon. More than nine hundred mosques have existed in the U.S. since the early nineteen-nineties, and the oldest one, located in Dearborn, Michigan, recently marked its seventy-third anniversary. As Freedman observes, there was even a Muslim prayer room in the south tower of the World Trade Center.

The New Yorker began writing about mosques, domestic and foreign, in the forties and fifties. One of the first pieces to chronicle a Muslim prayer service held in Manhattan was written by the filmmaker James Ivory, in 1966. Ivory, a man well versed in translating cross-cultural narratives onscreen, contributed six Talk of the Town stories to the magazine between 1966 and 1969. In “Namaz,” he describes accompanying a Muslim friend to a prayer service, which took place not in a mosque but at a staid midtown hotel called the Americana. The service was held to commemorate Eid al-Fitr, which marks the end of Ramadan, and Ivory was particularly struck by the inclusive nature of the imam’s address:

The imam looked down at some papers on the lectern and began addressing us in lightly accented English: “My dear Muslim brothers and sisters, welcome! Though we may be far away from the holy shrines associated with the life of our Prophet Mohammed, we are all united here in this great city in the brotherhood of our faith. Some of us have not seen for many years those holy places and the lands of our birth where our brethren are congregating today, across the ocean, thousands of miles away. Some of us present this morning have never seen those places at all. But we are all brothers, wherever we are on this day, whoever we are. As you kneel next to your brother, you do not say, ‘Oh, his skin is black,’ or ‘His skin is light,’ or ‘He is from this country,’ or ‘He is from that one,’ or ‘I am so rich and he is very poor.’ No, you greet him as a brother with the beautiful words ‘Asalaam u aleikum.’ I know all of you are good Muslims, and because you are good Muslims you have no quarrel with your brothers, or with those whose faith is different from your own, or with those who govern the community in which you live.” When the sermon was finished, the people got to their feet and began to converge on the rows of shoes, and on piles of coats that had been stacked on the floor near the stairs.

We went up to speak to the imam, a man of medium height with a long face, heavy black eyebrows, and a forthright manner… We had one more question to ask [him]: Why, at the end of the prayers, did each member of the congregation look first over his right shoulder and then over his left? The imam told us that this was because on the right shoulder there is an angel who records a man’s good deeds and on the left there is an angel who records his evil ones. As a man turns his head, he greets the angels with the words “Asalaam u aleikum,” and that salutation is intended for his brother on each side as well, no matter who he may be.

The name of the imam who delivered that sermon nearly forty-five years ago? Dr. Mohammed Abdul Rauf, father to one Feisal Abdul Rauf.

To address the larger issue represented by the headline of this thread, I cannot believe that bigotry has reared its ugly head in so many places in the country. The recent incidents in Tennessee and Arizona are of grave concern to me, and the more-than-a-half-dozen states where people are protesting the building of mosques is alarming.

Really, Sheboygan? Really? This is not the incredibly inclusive and tolerant people of Wisconsin I once knew. What has happened to you? Why do you shame me so?

I feel a little more hopeful when I read the published stories linked to by these headlines:

Five myths about mosques in America

New Louisville mosque peaceful

[Despanan]

Props to my former city for being a sterling example of religious tolerance (though I suspect no fuss was made because no one gives a shit about Kentucky).

[CptSternn]

No one gives a fuck about Tennessee, but they sure made the news. I give credit to Kentucky for that one sure.

[Ben Lahnger]

Sad that we're giving credit to areas now just because a religious building was able to be erected there without a bigoted incident.

[CptSternn]

Heh - reminds me of Chris Rock in his Bring The Pain act. Where people want credit for shit they are supposed to do - like raising their kids, or not going to jail.