Prejudices against Gothic Culture

[merivelles]

First off, forgive me if this topic has already been discussed somewhere else, I didn't see anything that was too specific so I'm doing this.

As many of us know and have experienced, there are a lot of things (hazings, put downs, etc) that the gothic people encounter during their lives. I'm actually doing a research paper on the things that have gone on that should be looked into. Unlike every other subculture in america, the gothic culture has been shunned and put aside because of the different way to see how life is; Anything from being called a "devil worshiper" to having someone ask you if you're going to bomb or shoot up a highschool; like it or not, we've all experienced it to a degree. But why is this so?

Today in class, I discussed my research. Several people in my class had a lot of significant things to say. One of them (an interior design major aka the "prep" of this school) said that she didn't quiet understand what a gothi was but she didn't see the need to be so discriminating towards them. She said she'd actually like to get to know someone who was goth, just so she could see the other side of the "light" that is what the American society tries so hard to sell and I comend her greatly for being so open...Unlike many of the other students in the class that give me strange looks when I walk into class every Thursday.

I came across several problems during my research.Things such as "posuer" sites that post directions to becoming "goth" (gawth), hate sites, automatic links to self injury sites, sites about the Colombine shootings, and combating the "Evil Satanic" gothic culture. I actually found a site that was from the Eastern part of the US that was spending $273,000 so that they could have the police arrest anyone who was dressed "goth" because they didn't want any shootings or hostility. If you ask me, this is the new aged Salem Witch Trials. What, and why, would bring people to be so hostile towards those people in the American society that merely think and see things differently?

Having brought all of this up, I wish to know others opinions on such matters and if any of you have any suggestions for my paper, be more than welcome to share them with me. I'm willing to hear either side of the topic, but please don't be rude about it, I'm merely doing research. Your opinions, and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Niels]

'They just don't trust, what they can't explain'
- Phil Collins

You know, in my opinion the hatred towards goths is not because of the way they look at the world and life, but the way they dress and the music they listen to. You can try as hard to deny it, but the 'dress-code' is dark, the music is dark, and most people will associate dark with evil. And because christianity (which is the overruling religion in western society where goths are mainly settled) is constantly brainwashing people that evil should be whiped from the world, everything 'dark/evil' will be rejected.

Also people associate the dark clothing with depressing. It will be even worse, when they read the poetry or the gothic novels, or look at 'gothic art' (Luis Royo, Victoria Frances). The main focus of that is darkness and depression, which is, according to society, something you should restrain from.

Then there is all this crap showed on the media like Columbine and what not, which biases the view of the masses...

I'm sure there are many more reasons why goths are looked at with the eyes of Argus (I'm not sure if you are familiar with that saying...), but these were the ones I could think of...

[belle hawk]

because i generally wear black clothes one of my teacher implied to the class that i'm a satanist*rolling my eyes*.Hello ,clothes don't make any one Evil.I'm glad he haven't looked into my mp3 yet

[Malady]

what i think has played a big part in the discriminization towards goths is thatwestern (mainly american) culture has taught people to ignore death and depression and any emotion at all. we're supposed to be smiling clones of eachother who run around buuying all the latest gadgets. Almost all stores and t.v. shows support that image, and the image that anyone who dosn't conform to that are wrong and overall wierd.
i get asked on an almost daily basis about my make up and my clothes from kids at school . . .the first question is " are you a goth" and then the second is " what's wrong with you". (i'm SO glad i'm going to an alternative school next year!)

[merivelles]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

What makes you say that?

There's always been a group that's been shunned. Even before "goth" existed.

Perhaps what I was meaning to say is that they haven't been shunned as openly, at least not where I'm from. So my saying that is wrong because I've not done the proper research, thanks for pointing it out. ^_^

[merivelles]

Well yes you see, all this makes sense but it still doesn't explain why it happens to be like that. So what if goths are different, hip hop culture is different, punk culture is different, etc. The only reason so much blame is put onto goths in certain cituations is because the mainstream American society is afraid of theire own shadows; their own truths. They're running away from what they can't change...They won't accept it.

I agree that most of the things associated with being gothic is "depressing" and or "dark" but goths just embrace that fact witout fear, unlike the giddy, wholsome majority of society. Goths expression is darker because they(we, whatever) realize the flaws of our so called "Perfect Society"

I just wish that the mainstream would stop trying to get rid of us and start to accept their darker selves.

[ViciousMistressBee]

hmmmmm...i kinda wish i was 13 and gave a shite about what people though about how i dress again.......oh wait i never did. lol

[Magpie_Tendencies]

I like your avatar Vicious Mistress.

[An Eccentric Cellist]

This probably sounds really, really arrogant but we're more powerful than them on the fact that we are more interested in educating ourselves, there fore allowing us to banish our ignorance so that we can accept and/or embrace the unknown and feared because we've seen it before and we understand the psyche and the way the world works enough that we KNOW we'll see it again. Whatever it is, from genocide to homosexuality.

Also the intellectual, world renowned groups, when they screw up the whole world likes to remember it, I get this from everyone remembering Hitler's genocide in Germany but there were even larger ones in Africa and Russia, if I remember right, that I've heard nothing of except for the time my mom and I were discussing something.

Mainly I think it's cold fear; fear of truth, fear of change, and fear of being in-superior, fear of losing they're spot. Whenever anyone is oppressed it's because the oppressors are afraid of the oppressed's power.

I coud be over thinking this. Thoughts?
Guten Nacht.

[nuksaa]

To build on what Eccentric Cellist stated, you should go a step further and compare the mindset to the history of war and genocide. Why were the Hebrew's targeted repeatedly? They had this weird idea that there was one god vice the pantheon of gods in many of those ancient societies.

Why were there several skirmishes with the Native Americans during the settling of America? The 2 societies failed to understand each other. The Europeans attached possession to the land by rigging fences and claiming what is on the land as theirs. Native Americans view possession of the land as the ability to walk on it and not something to be held by deed.

Why were Russians viewed as spies and untrustworthy while visiting America during the Cold War? The propoganda released painted a stereotype to create fear and opposition. Strangely enough, the Russian were conducting the same propoganda routine. The truth: both sides were very similar in mindset and shared the same fears.

Several smaller communities today view anyone not born and raised for 5+ generations in that community as outsiders. The clique system prevailent in schools. You have groups who view each other as too 'different' to have anything socially similar.

People need a cause to explain their misery, an escape goat, a place to point the finger external to themselves. Many people refuse to accept the responsibility for their actions so are equally in denial when the consequences occur and seek an object of opportunity to label with the blame. Others generated fear due to the fact the object of their attack behaves in a manner they were taught is wrong, yet they find themselves worried that those traits and interests could exist inside themselves. There is also the other group who desperately want to fit into the sterotype because they love the fantasy (or attention) of the sterotype more than the reality. Then there are the objects of the shunning who desire to seperate themselves further and do not educate those performing the prejudicial acts nor do they take action to dissolve the fear associated with their subculture. These individuals discover the sterotype is the shield or space to be left alone to pursue what they desire in a quiet freedom.

[Shelley/Stoker]

I think the reason why school shooters etc. are labelled as "gothic" is because of the reputation of the subculture being "obsessed with death. We know that Goths do not have an obsession with death but it is a part of the twisted stereotype of Gothic culture.. If someone is apparently "obsessed" with death, then they would immediately try to reign death and ruin around themselves and so the media calls these people "gothic" as Goth to them means death obsession.

Im sorry if this makes no sense I am rushing...

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by nuksaa

... fit into the sterotype because...of the sterotype more...the sterotype...

Yes, I have bouts of illiteracy from time to time. Stereotype: s-t-e-r-e-o-t-y-p-e. At least we know where I stopped in my proof read of the post.

[wunky]

i know others have said this, but i'm seconding (or thirding) it. mainstream society is terrified of the cracks in the perfect image it portrays showing. where i live it's not just gothic people who are persecuted, it's anyone who shows an understanding of life beyond this image. anyone that questions the norm is open to this kind of attack and as gothic people do it so overtly then it's fairly obvious what happens.

there are also a lot of stereotypes around about not just gothic people but things vaguely associated with the gothic subculture. the colour black is associated with evil. goth, rock and metal music are associated with evil. obviously sexuality (as a lot of gothic outfits promote) is associated with immorality. paganism is associated, rightly or wrongly, with the gothic subculture and, despite many 'preppy' kids going bad whenever a goth kid goes bad it shown that it was entirely the fact that they were gothic that did it.

this is just my opinion, but i hope it helps.

[merivelles]

Yes, yes I understand perfectly what you are all saying and I'm quite impressed with the input you've all put into this thread. (I actually didn't think this was going to fly at all.) And I do know that there are more subcultures out there but, I'm doing research on the Gothic one because I'm part of it. I do understand that other subcultures (such as gangsters) are persecuted as well, seeing as most of my family was part of some gang at one point or another in their lives, I'm just curious as to why mainstream America is so afraid of facing themselves. Then again, I can also see why people of different subcultures are persecuted. If these subcultures weren't "strange" they'd be just fine in this modern day society. Therein, we (the subcultures people) give the mainstream society reasons for them to persecute us so.

The obsession with death is something entirely different. The only place in the world that is so afraid of death is America. America, although it puts out that it's "perfect", is so afraid of ending that they teach their future generations that death is a bad thing when in all reality it's not. Death is a most beautiful mistress, for with her comes a life that's better then the one before. So, of course goths are obessed with death; Just like the "preppy" counter parts are so obsessed with making themselves beautiful, or just like a highschool obsession with the girl-next-door.(or boy)

Seeing as rock and metal are associated with the gothic culture, we'll associate rap and hip-hop with the hip-hop subculture. How wrong is that exactly? Music is universal and should not be associated with some subculture just because the majority of that culture listens to that kind of music. I can vouch for the universalness of music, I listen to anything that passes by my ears, be it rap or metal.(Trance,folk,world, etc.)

I'm really glad that you are all giving me such wonderfull feedback. I'd really like to use some of this information to put into my paper, if you all don't mind.
I thank you muchly.

[merivelles]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

Honestly, normally we probably wouldn't have responded in the way we did, but as far as I'm concerned you're a good newb and we want you to stick around. Plus, you are very well-written... Had you said something along the lines of "Why does everyone hate goths?", you would have been received differently.

So, props to you, sweetheart!

-blushes slightly- Well thank you very much. I just figured, hell I'm doing a paper on it, why not try to post something and see what my results are. And, as I said before, I'm quite happy that I didn't get blown off. And I'm glad that you all want me to stick around...I guess I can say I feel somewhat, accepted.-laughs-

[Niels]

Seeing as rock and metal are associated with the gothic culture, we'll associate rap and hip-hop with the hip-hop subculture. How wrong is that exactly?

I respectfully disagree. See the gothic subculture didn't exsist (or, isn't called 'gothic') before the music was there, so technically the subculture came with the music. And because people who listened to this music happened to like subjects of the songs, they got interested in the literature as well, and wanted to gather wearing sertain types of clothes or make-up.

At least that is what I think that happened, in a nutshell.

It's another story with hip hop, because hip hop isn't just about the music, it's also about graffiti, breakdance and rap. Hip hop music is a big part of the subculture, but without the other factors the culture isn't 'hip hop'...

It depends on what subculture you talk about, but a lot of them ARE directly connected to a type of music.

Punk isn't punk with just the attitude either...

[merivelles]

Originally Posted by Niels

I respectfully disagree. See the gothic subculture didn't exsist (or, isn't called 'gothic') before the music was there, so technically the subculture came with the music. And because people who listened to this music happened to like subjects of the songs, they got interested in the literature as well, and wanted to gather wearing sertain types of clothes or make-up.

At least that is what I think that happened, in a nutshell.

It's another story with hip hop, because hip hop isn't just about the music, it's also about graffiti, breakdance and rap. Hip hop music is a big part of the subculture, but without the other factors the culture isn't 'hip hop'...

It depends on what subculture you talk about, but a lot of them ARE directly connected to a type of music.

Punk isn't punk with just the attitude either...

Ah, I see what you say. Had the gothic subculture not been so interested in such "outlandish" themes, the music would not have come about at all. And with hip-hop, it's different because it encompases more than just the music, but does that not aply to the gothic culture as well? I think about it and most of it makes some sort of sense, but there are still so many things that I wish to know about any and every subculture out there. Why should a subculture be directly connected to what they listen to? As I said before, I listen to anything that crosses my path, so does that make me other than what I am? Or does that make me confused and unknowing of some niche that I should be filling?

I do understand that attitutde has a lot to do with this as well. I don't believe that, just because the majority of the people have a certain attitutde means that those people outside of whatever subculture are automatically grouped in with them. Say like, the emotional outbursts of "Emo" and someone who's just had a bad day and wishes to talk about it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm tired of this society grouping everyone into something, even when they don't consider to be apart of that thing. I, for one, do not wish to be stereo-typed into anything that I'm not. Such as Emo...Which I've been grouped into because of how passionate I am about certain things I do. People who overly stereo-type those around them do not deserve a place in my "world", if I may say so myself. I do not stereo-type and I do not wish to BE stereo-typed.

Judge yourself, not others. (wow that was random of me -laughs-)

[happy_dude]

I think this quote of Sigmund Freud's defense mechanisms fairly well describes why so much hostility is directed towards the Goth Subculture.
'Reaction formation takes place when a person takes the opposite approach consciously compared to what that person wants unconsciously. For example, someone may engage in violence against another race because, that person claims, the members of the race are inferior, when unconsciously it is that very person who feels inferior."
It's just basic psychology, if you feel threatened by something destroy it.

[merivelles]

That does make sense. But I still wish it weren't like that. That, if you really think about it, is a waste of time. Thinking you are inferior to someone else is just ridiculous. Perhaps inferior to them in one thing, but there are too many differences in us all to feel inferior to another person. Where's the logic in that?

[angel_dark_demon_bright]

That does make sense. But I still wish it weren't like that. That, if you really think about it, is a waste of time. Thinking you are inferior to someone else is just ridiculous. Perhaps inferior to them in one thing, but there are too many differences in us all to feel inferior to another person. Where's the logic in that?

Man was created in the false beleif that all men are created equally. The truth seems to be that equality among each person, is false. Who is anyone to say 'you're no better off in life than I'? Not every person has a ferrari, 20 million dollar mansion and an I.Q. of a hundred and sixty. To say 'all men are created equal' is a lie when the truth is that all men are not created equal. There is always someone better than you at something and born to live with more and someone who will never have a life the same as yours.

*drops two pennys in the can

[madweasel]

Originally Posted by Niels

I respectfully disagree. See the gothic subculture didn't exsist (or, isn't called 'gothic') before the music was there, so technically the subculture came with the music. And because people who listened to this music happened to like subjects of the songs, they got interested in the literature as well, and wanted to gather wearing sertain types of clothes or make-up.

At least that is what I think that happened, in a nutshell.

The question of subculture is an interesting one, since if we really wanted to be overly technical the roots of our modern subculture would be traced back to the Romantic movement that occured as a reaction against the Enlightenment. In particular a sub-genre of romanticism known as (and here we see our start!) The Gothic Novel. For reference the first Gothic novel is accredited to Horace Walpole in 176something...if I recall the name and date I'll post it later. More or less it began the codification of gothic symbolism and a sort of enjoyable fear. Look in most Gothic literature and you can almost always find a series of images (a lot of which made their way into our modern music), of castles, hidden chambers in lower areas and isolation at the tops of buildings, imprisoned female characters or spirits, bodies of water, miasmas, the concept of 'the double'...excellent stuff. You can see almost ALL of these in later literature like Poe's 'The Fall of the House of Usher' and still later with Valentine Penrose's 'The Bloody Countess' during the surrealist movement. If you haven't I strongly recomend you read both, neither is particularly long and will provide wonderful late night...amusement. Tangent - A more modern branch off of the Gothic novel would be the Fantastic novel, not to be confused with the Fantasy novel. Good example of this would be Aura by Carlos Fuentes, theres a bilingual edition which is good as i can't read spanish well enough.

Prior to this there was also the architechtural movement...both held in common a reaction to common societal acception of 'reason'. More or less: Moving away from the light. Backing up from all of the science, and what was expected and embracing emotional reaction, accepting that emotional reactions were often very DARK reactions. Romeo and Juliet is certainly a love story but not a happy one! So the term 'Gothic' and the people associated with it have never really fit in, even before we started wearing all black.

Our roots run deeper than we'd often suspect. I'd agree the modern incarnation of this cycle definately has its basis in the music as opposed to the literature. It definately lends itself to being more inclusive and bonding through dancing!

As to whats going on with modern 'goths'...well as opposed to other subcultures in America I'd say there are two things going. #1 - As a group, it has endured a lot longer than most others (Say Hippies or Beatniks) and #2 - It has never unified with a specific goal (again, Hippies and the peacemovement). While I'd say most of us are political, and generally liberal minded to put it delicately, no one would suggest having all the goths get together to try and agree on something...herding cats is too kind a term. The diversity is the sub cultures greatest strength, it prevents burn out and allows for more of a collection of sub cultures (lets just leave it at that before this launches into a 'what is goth' discussion ) that is evolving in all sorts of interesting ways. I know a few people aren't always thrilled with that, but I rather enjoy hanging out with someone in the victorian corset on the left and the cyber hair extensions on the right while having my beer. Keeps things in perspective.

I'd argue that yes, the subculture was there as a literary genre, it definately had its affecianados and influenced their way of living and percieving. We are left a certain evidence of this in their art. So if you were to look at it from when the reactionary movement of the 'Gothic' began to now...thats over 300 years.

Idle thoughts, take them as you will. I suspect I rambled more than I intended, please forgive the slight case of dyslexia, I don't often catch all the reversals.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by angel_dark_demon_bright

Man was created in the false beleif that all men are created equally.

If you are comparing the physical value of a man, I would agree. No one is equal. The belief that all men are created equally applies to that which is not physical. Should a man (or woman) be denied the right to vote based on money, gender or race? Should a man be denied the ability to pursue the same goals as another based purely on money, race, or gender? All men should be allowed these fundamental rights. The amount of success in the endeavors will vary but the opportunity should be available. And in this regard we are created equal unless we choose to believe when others tell us we are not equal.

[Niels]

madweasel: True enough, and I know that the term 'Gothic' exsist for a very long time, however, the subculture didn't exsist before the music. People who enjoyed the literature weren't called goths...

[madweasel]

True enough, a that point they were called 'Romantics', not being snarky just pondering if perhaps it TOOK a pop cultural reference to actually put a name on the subculture. I mean you can certainly see social elements that equate to Gothic subculture quite vividly, particularly in the art crowds. All the music did was open it up to wider venew and force the larger public to put a convenient label on us...which has been mis-applied by popular culture ever since and generally met with a certain resentment by the rest of us.

Well, more convenient than "wierdo", yes? ^.^

[merivelles]

angel_dark_demon_bright: No, no, no...It's not right to think that people are created equally, I know that. And it's wrong for people to even begin to try to say that everyone is created equally. But not everyone needs those material things in life to be happy. No one needs to be equal to anyone. Thanks for the pennies. ^_^

madweasel: Quiet well put actually. To say the least, I've done my research on "what is goth" and I came up with quite a few different outlooks on it. Yes, the gothic subculture has survived for many years....It goes on millenia, from what I recall my research provided. To say the least, the gothic subculture is the longest thriving subculture in all the world. It dates back to before all the music and literature. It is a WAY OF LIFE. The way one thinks, the way one acts towards all situations, the outlook one has on life....The term "gothic" was coined when the architecture became famous, but as I said before, there were goths far before this time. And I'd be the one with the Victorian corset to your left, my dear. -laughs softly-

WE ARE NOT CREATED EQUALLY!!! I DO NOT HAVE A PENIS IN MY PANTS!! If we were so equal then we'd all be getting paid the same amount of money! Do not give me this heap of unthougthout CRAP about how we are all equal! If we were so EQUAL, this place would be a Utohpia of sorts.
-sighs heavily-