Questioning the Limits on Freedom of Speech

[Cyntrox]

But the government are sheep too; how can sheep govern themselves?

[Valerius]

Exactly. We stumble around in this world nearly blind to the larger picture of how things would work best, content merely to sate our selfishness and greed.

But, I'm straying off-topic already. Carry on.

[Drake Dun]

In a way, I see humans as inherently evil...

That's a good argument against government. If people have inclinations to evil, the last thing we should do is concentrate power in the hands of a few. Especially when you know that those few are inevitably going to be the ones who love having power over other people.

And who will be in charge of taking care of the people? The government.

Only if we want more of the same. Mass graves, mushroom clouds, inner city riots, and all that good stuff. Anyway, have a little faith. People are not as stupid as you might think, and a lot of their potential is unrealized. You can't take away people's power over their own lives, tell them at gunpoint to live in a rigid system which is imposed upon their will, and then expect them to culture virtues of independance, responsibility, and vision.

Think about it. Imagine you're a plantation owner. You own a hundred slaves. You prefer to be relatively benign, but you are frustrated because they are lazy and are always stealing and fighting and otherwise causing trouble. So you say, "I got to keep these ******s on a tighter leash, for their own good." And who's to argue? Except, of course, for the ******s in question, who are in fact slovenly miscreants precisely because they have been dehumanized and robbed of any chance to rise to something better.

It doesn't make since to reduce a person, and then blame him for being little.

I really liked the way I heard it put in some tract I read a while back. Things will take a turn for the better when people realize that history isn't a story of which the glorious few are the subjects, and the rest of us are merely objects. It isn't something that happens to us. It is something that we do.

Anytime you find your thinking unable to escape the circles of despair, fear, and loathing of the world and its people that I detect in what you are writing, you should begin to suspect that something is wrong and to fight back. You're better than that. I know, because I am better than that.

Exactly. We stumble around in this world nearly blind to the larger picture of how things would work best, content merely to sate our selfishness and greed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. We don't exist to overcome our petty selves and pitch in to something better than us. Western civilization has been flogging itself with that self-loathing crap for too long. We don't serve the bigger picture. We are the bigger picture.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

That's why I never vote for the left. Consistently passing laws to limit speech and other such freedoms such as expression with the aclu's rabid war on anything xtian. I'm not a xtian, but you'd be a dummy not to see the war they are waging against any xpression that is. I would like them to know there is a difference between a "historical" cross and blatant religion pushing and merging with govt. They don't see that. Such as them banning the cross on the city seal of VA beach. The cross in the desert for war vet's in Ar,ca? and on and on. The ninth circuit just passed a law saying that using the term marriage or family values is hate speech? WTF? And people vote for pollies that spew this crap?

I beleive in the freedoms of this country and for everyone to have equal rights. This doesn't mean passing stupid laws or regulations on the freedoms we already have. Everyone is bound by the laws we already have, if they are enforced properly there is no need for anti discrimination or speech laws. I also feel the same for man other laws on other topics. Have any of you read through law books and such... there is such bs and doublespeak it's ridiculous. We need to shrink govt to make it more effective, not pass more laws that are already redundant. Oh god please let common sense prevail.

[Valerius]

Just to play the devil's advocate, that gathering from what I've read from your posts is that you would have governments abolished, or am I taking your statements too far? Either way we slice the cake, people will still be prone to violence, as history has shown us, such as the catalyst for the last World War, the 9-11 attacks and retaliation against Bin Laden and Madrid and London terror attacks to name a few.

I'm all for free speech, but there needs to be a set limit against what can be said and what cannot since we all walk slippery paths where one false step can lead all the way downhill. While true that people are not as mindless as I may make them out to be, a great majority still lead lives heavily influenced by a media addicted to greed and scandal that is the natural attraction of baser human functions and are closer to animalistic tendencies. Take hip-hop culture, for example, where what is coveted most are shiney trinkets and tasteless clothes with no amount of eloquence or subtlety.

What I'm basically advocating for is a bit of tongue-biting by the public, with a clear focus by government away from mind-numbing idiocies which are currently the trend of the sheeple. It is imperative that humanity conquers itself lest those with sights beyond what is 'hip' and 'cool' be dragged down with the mindless masses. But, that would probably be bordering on fascism if it were to be done forcefully.

I will make it clear that I want nothing of the sort of government you'd see if you watched V For Vendetta.

But, alas, I am well aware that it is but a distant dream for humanity to gain greater foresight and self-awareness and cast off the current brainless trend of pop culture.

[ArtificialOne]

Yes, I agree a mindless self indulgent and greedy media has much influence.

No, I don't want govt abolished. Just streamlined and out of micro managing our lives. This admin and the left part of our country are trying to make "more govt". Case in point is the Dept of Homeland security.. I mean Wtf?!!! It's like, instead of fixing the car, you just tow it around? Make what we have work better and get rid of the fat that doesn't.

As far as free speech. We already have laws about slander and open threats of violence. That should cover just about everything really. You can hold any view you want weather it's racist, homophobic or whatnot. When you say you're going to <blank> a person. Then thats the line.

Same with hatecrime laws. Why should I get treated differently if I'm beaten up and not gay, but if I was gay the guy or girl would get more time? Shouldn't they get equal time? If you want to make the crime worse, toughen the sentance on said crimes and not make laws that discriminate against 90% of the rest of the population.

Just my thoughts, I think everyone, and I mean everyone should fall under the same laws. I think passing certain laws to afford special priviliges or rights to particular group or people is wrong. I think if we are having problems with certain groups, we need to direct better enforcement in those areas instead making more laws.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Just to play the devil's advocate, that gathering from what I've read from your posts is that you would have governments abolished, or am I taking your statements too far?

Wait, this question was directed to me, right? Yes, I would advocate that governments be abolished (although how, when, etc. are other questions). Most of the time I am more focused on my life, though. I'm not waiting for the revolution. If you're waiting for the revolution, you've got the attitude, but you're still missing the point.

What does that mean in terms of my lifestyle? Well, thus far only one dramatic change, but it's a change that I am very proud of: I put bread on my table through freelance work now. I take orders from nobody and I give orders to nobody - I treat my wealthy clients the same way I treat the janitors in their office buildings' halls. That isn't an anarchist utopia, but it's a real step toward egalitarianism as a lifestyle, instead of as a hollow creed.

Either way we slice the cake, people will still be prone to violence, as history has shown us, such as the catalyst for the last World War, the 9-11 attacks and retaliation against Bin Laden and Madrid and London terror attacks to name a few.

Without exception, the examples you give are clear products of statism.

Do I think violence among humans would cease utterly in an anarchist society? No. But I have the feeling that it would go down in the big picture, and the firm belief that we would get a lot of other good stuff into the deal. Like, to pick a random example, each of us feeling like he was in control of his own destiny, instead of turning on the television every day to learn about the latest, almost always depressing development in his inexorable fate.

I'm all for free speech, but there needs to be a set limit against what can be said and what cannot since we all walk slippery paths where one false step can lead all the way downhill.

That is not really concrete enough for me to formulate an opinion on it, but I have a bad feeling about what it would mean if it got more specific. Since we're already working at the level of the very abstract, let me put my response this way (and I won't be the first person to express this). The answer to bad speech isn't the censor. It's more speech.

While true that people are not as mindless as I may make them out to be, a great majority still lead lives heavily influenced by a media addicted to greed and scandal...

Said media being, of course, a product of our own peculiar breed of capitalism, which is simply our era's most successful instantiation of authoritarianism.

...that is the natural attraction of baser human functions and are closer to animalistic tendencies.

Again, let me urge you to ditch this self-loathing crap. You are an animal. Why should you be ashamed of that? The realities of human life mean that although we are animals, we are not mere animals, and as such it is occasionally necessary to make decisions which run counter to our more basic urges. But that's a far cry from a cultivated loathing of our own instinct.

Take hip-hop culture, for example, where what is coveted most are shiney trinkets and tasteless clothes with no amount of eloquence or subtlety.

If human society ever reaches a state where bad taste is the worst of its concerns, I'll be happy to call it a utopia, and quiety ignore the bling, or whatever the current word is.

What I'm basically advocating for is a bit of tongue-biting by the public

That's hitting it right, in my opinion. Actually, I am not sure which particular area of the tongue you want bitten, but the point is, if you don't like something that people are saying, get out there and say the opposite, or encourage them to stop saying it, or whatever. That's a much better answer than sending in the assault team.

I will make it clear that I want nothing of the sort of government you'd see if you watched V For Vendetta.

Exciting fiction demands hyperbole and simplification, but if you think that V for Vendetta was a pure flight of fantasy and had nothing to do with things going on in the real world... it might bear another watching. My favorite line from the film:

"I want everyone to remember WHY THEY NEED US!"

Of course, the movie is watered down from the comic book form. It was produced by the Wachowski brothers (plus some other guy), who of course did the status-quo hugging, anti-revolutionary films par exellence of recent years (the Matrix series). Still, stuff shines through.

But, alas, I am well aware that it is but a distant dream for humanity to gain greater foresight and self-awareness and cast off the current brainless trend of pop culture.

Dreams with substance are usually distant, in the sense that their immediate fulfilment on a species or culture-wide level seems unlikely. The question is, if you feel pop culture as a poisonous influence on your life, how can you limit that influence... or better yet, strike back against it? Don't think in terms of votes or laws or whatever. Empower yourself. Think about what you can do in your own life, right now. For example:

Turn. Off. The. TV!

And leave it off. I have.

You're living your life now, and nobody is in a better position to affect it than you. Don't wait for some bigger, better, higher force outside yourself (government, God, whatever) to fix it. Do something about it.

Drake

[Valerius]

Drake, you never cease to amaze me. And no, I don't subscribe to the self-loathing philosophy if you're wondering; I just love playing the antagonist in most of anything. I'll take your advice because I see sense in it.

[ArtificialOne]

Valerius, I know that your avatar is an amp power level meter.. But I can't shake the resemblance to the Knight Rider power meter in kit on the tv show.... lol

[Valerius]

LOL! I never thought of it that way, but now that I think about it... Well, you being a machine you'd know.

[CptSternn]

There is no freedom of speech anywhere in the world today. All nations limit speech.

Prime example - 3 men imprisoned recently in Virginia for their anti-American conversations. They never 'did' anything, merely discussed it. Now they will spend 18 years in prison.

Same with the 7 men in England last week. No actions ever taken, just words. 36 years for one of them.

Put that with the fact that even making a joke about harming a U.S. president will land you in a cell (ask the 14 year old who posted that said she wished bush was dead on MySpace) and you see that there are harsh penalties for those who wish to freely exchange ideas that go against the grain of current government administrations.

The U.K. and Ireland are even worse than America though. Here, our media can't print any stories, even with 2 sources, unless they can prove it in a court of law. They have to have solid proof before going to press, else they can be shut down.

I wrote an article in a paper here in Ireland just a few weeks back, they removed one line as I could not prove my statement. What was it? Well, a local politician was parking his mobile billboard (billboard on the back of a long bed lorry) in the Cathedral parking lot during funerals and mass. Real bad form. I used the phrase in my article 'blasphemous actions'. The editor contacted me and said unless I can get the local Bishop to write a statement claiming the church agrees and would consider this blasphemy, I can't use the term.

So no matter where you are today, there is no true free speech. No pr0n in the Middle East, no fantasizing about blowing up things in the Western world, no talking about politicians in Europe without a photo or signed statement to back up your rhetoric.

Free speech is already quite limited.

[ArtificialOne]

I love how the uk does that. The mass media <ie. tv and radio> have way to much power these days. They put themselves into a defacto governership of most of the western world. What they say goes. And most of the time they are run by people with a poli agenda.

I also love the aussies for there law banning people from making money off of a crime that was commited <ie. book and movie deals> Like Shapel Corby and the like.

I think we need more laws like that here in the states. If this is contradictory to something I said earlier.. so be it. I just spent 14hrs building a garage and working on a scooter <which I have to custom make a peice for the motor now> in 97 degree F heat with 80% humidity... yay for me....

[Tha Duckman]

Freedom of speech rules, bitches!!!

[Eats a kiwi].