Magdelin Laundry

[Versus]

God, Saya gives me such a fucking boner. EVERYDAY WITH THIS SHIT.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

What does that sound like to you?

Obviously it's wealth disparity.

Seriously, I fucking tried so hard and he just walked the fuck away before we were finished. Look at the Mitt Romney thread around page 3 or so. White people are hilarious has a few important posts on the 17th as well. I was actually able to sit him down and he got right the fuck back up.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Versus

I understand there there is a difference between "This is not important" and "This is not as important."

What I am saying is that how things WERE has absolutely nothing to do with how things ARE. It is not ANY kind of evidence that a CURRENT problem is worse then ANOTHER CURRENT problem. Literally, your entire argument is "This is BETTER then it used to be, and therefor it is less of a problem then THIS."

Jonathan, what the flying fuck does racism's improvement have to do with racism's current impact?

Because I'm pretty sure you mentioned racism's improvement in your opening argument in the "white people are hilarious thread" in order to marginalize and ignore it's current impact, rather then actually dispute it or disprove it.

No my "argument" was I can point to things like http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html and show that society has agreed discriminating against people on criteria like race is wrong. What I can't do is see any prohibition against selection based on education level or economic standing. In the past that wasn't the case.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Its not right to say you know what its like to be rraped because you communicated with a rrape victim.

That's not what I said.

Its not right to say you kjnow what its like to be racially discriminated against if you're white in a white supremist society, because someone communicated an experience of racism to you.

That's also not what I said.

Its not right to say you know what its like to be a woman because I've communicated a few instances to you.

3 for 3. You missed my point.

We can communicate! I never said we couldn't. However, the totality of experiences and emotions cannot often be articulated

I would argue that the totality of experiences and emotions can never be articulated. By anyone to anyone else. No matter what their race or gender is.

It cannot be reduced to a math equation. Not everything can be reduced to an objective science, especially when it comes to experiences.

Certainly, but the point is that the things which cannot are unintelligible and incommunicable (at least not reliably) and thus are irrelevant to everyone but the person experiencing them.

We cannot prove that we aren't in the Matrix, so it's useless to try to claim that we are.

We cannot prove nor that white people are especially incapable of understanding the experience of a person of color, when compared to any other race claiming they understand an experience that someone else went through.

A rrape victim deals with trauma and shame. Objectively, intellectually, we know that. But we don't know how exactly they feel or how it affects them, especially since everyone deals with it differently. I know people who were assaulted who get along fine now and I know people who were assaulted years ago and still have panic attacks thinking about it. Its not possible to grapple what its like. Its not science because its not repeatable, its individual and personal.

Likewise, not all PoC deal with racism the same way or see it the same way. My grandmother dealt with it by accepting assimilation, and now passes as a very racist white woman. Others very much defend their ethnic identity and resist. There's a whole lot of people in between. I felt like a jackass after I realized FistsOfFury wasn't white because I had no right to tell him how to feel and think about racism.

But racism is something you are more educated on. You haven't experienced it the same way, and it's certainly impolite to do what you did, given his ethnic status, but that doesn't mean you were wrong in what you told him.

I can talk to Versus quite well about feminism because he's open to it and for the most part he understands what I say. He still has blindspots and he doesn't "get" the totality of it. I don't expect him to, and I like that he is respectful and defers to my experience when I tell him something. He never asks me to prove or write an essay on why elevators are scary. Likewise no matter how much we talk and communicate I'm not going to totally understand what its like to be a black man. I'm never going to come close to understanding what its like to be in combat, no matter what he's able to tell me. I'm always going to see his experiences differently than he does, as an outsider with my own biases and prejudices, but also as someone who has never had to deal with it and has no experience.

I can easily imagine why elevators are scary. Granted I don't think about it because they aren't scary TO ME because I'm a huge guy. What I can say is that I've been subject to unwanted sexual advances from other men in the past (due to my long hair) so it's easy to see why you would be uncomfortable in that situation.

Am I as afraid of elevators as you? No. Have I had the exact same experience, no. But to claim I can't understand is inappropriate.

Having the exact same experience is not a requirement for understanding something if it was no one would understand anything because no one has exactly the same experience. As I've said, once you go down the path of unknowability you abandon all relevance to everyone but yourself.

Experiences aren't math, its not science. Its not repeatable, there are no controls. When people disclose their assaults to me, they trust me not to use them for my own gain. They trust me, and in return I always give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't ask them to prove shit about their experiences and feelings. I would be thrown out on my ass so fast if I ever did. We take statistical information from them at is anonymous to prove the centre is needed and here's how many people have reported sexual assault this year, let's put that against how many were reported to the police, and we figure out 1 out of 20 are reported. In those statistics though there's no trauma or emotion or experience, its jut a report on how often it happens, the mechanics of it. It sure as shit doesn't get people listening or stop joking or interrupting or justifying their behavior. Even if you spill out personal experiences, they're likely to defend their privilege and discount it out of hand.

Therapy is not the same situation as confrontation. No one would ask someone to prove their traumatic experience happened, because that isn't the goal of such interactions.

Discussions, arguments, and trials are different.

There's also the problem when allies take our experiences for their own agendas. This case has everything feminists and atheists hate? Nope, not enough evil Muslims. Not enough Others. Feminists are just as guilty, white feminists take the experiences of women of colour to use against men of colour. We don't care how the women of colour feel about men. All men oppress women, right? We don't care that men of colour disproportionately just can't get away with oppressing us even if they try. Male privilege doesn't exist between white women and men of colour. Atheists likewise are particularly bad for colonialist feminism and only caring when they can use it as leverage against the church. Its not objective, it feeds a bias and a basic assumption about how the world works that isn't actually true.

You're making alot of assumptions here and painting with a very broad brush.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't do much to prove that it's useful to claim that whites can't understand the position that people of color are in. It falls apart because of among other things it's unknowability.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Absolutely, but that's just on the macro level. It's the same on the micro level. largely wealth is distributed in America on racial lines. When you don't have wealth everything gets harder, so on average People of Color have less access to education, less access to housing, less access to credit, and then when they get stopped by a racist cop for being "fucking mutts" they sometimes can't articulate what's wrong with the situation, or maybe they're so frustrated they get mad, or maybe the cop is just a total dick. Then they go to court and can't afford a good lawyer, the jury is looking at them sideways because they look like criminals they've seen in TV and movies and this subconsciously informs their decision. The judge treats them more harshly, either for the same reason, or maybe because they aren't well-spoken and educated, or maybe he's just racist and suddenly they're in prison for a bag of weed they're carrying (or maybe the cop planted it on them, they're known to do that in NYC)

So now you have a ton of black and latino men locked up in a private for-profit prison (yes we have those, they're taking over the system actually) serving out their sentences by doing free labor.

What does that sound like to you?

Cascading individual failures that ruin lives.

It is wrong for people who should not be in jail to be there.
It is wrong for people who should be in jail to not be there.

Police falsly planting evidence to score a conviction is blatantly wrong and anyone can see that. Police disproportionately stopping and searching, or engaging in other forms of profiling is wrong. Judges handing out harsher sentences to some people because of racial preferences are wrong. These people are horrible and at a minimum should lose their jobs.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

No my "argument" was I can point to things like http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html and show that society has agreed discriminating against people on criteria like race is wrong. What I can't do is see any prohibition against selection based on education level or economic standing. In the past that wasn't the case.

It does not show that society has agreed to minimize racism, it shows me that society has agreed to change how to enforce it. I have already told you that outlining a person's race is no longer the ideology that reinforces the social structure. It is by applying abstract liberalism, making justifications with naturalism, assuming cultural uniformity and inferiority, and marginalizations that currently accomplishes that. Overt discrimination isn't used anymore, and to use that ideology that reinforced the social structure before the civil rights movement as a basis for current racial acceptance in the direct face of everything that I have shown you is something I have already said that you do without any evidence.

Originally Posted by Versus

You have also regarded discrimination as the exclusive racist behavior and eliminated the majority of racially motivated actions of individuals by fiat.

And again, I ask you to tell me how an improvement over one facet of racism over time says anything about the total impact of racism currently.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

It is wrong for people who should not be in jail to be there.
It is wrong for people who should be in jail to not be there.

Police falsly planting evidence to score a conviction is blatantly wrong and anyone can see that. Police disproportionately stopping and searching, or engaging in other forms of profiling is wrong. Judges handing out harsher sentences to some people because of racial preferences are wrong. These people are horrible and at a minimum should lose their jobs.

Yes, but the problem here is how do you hold them accountable? This kind of prejudice is very easy to conceal and even harder to prove, if it is challenged at all.

Add on that society is predisposed to view black and Latino men with suspicion, due to the media we consume, what happens when the judge is called out for being racist by the uneducated latino "mutt" who was caught with pot on him. Who's going to believe that guy?

The civil rights movement forced racism to become invisible. It didn't get rid of institutionalized racism.

but I want to address this:

Cascading individual failures that ruin lives.

Yes and no. Yes in that these ARE cascading individual failures, but "no" in the fact that they aren't individual failures that exist in a vaccume. People react to their environment. Versus mentioned the Lucifer Effect for instance, you should google it right now.

There's no group of evil men made mad by privilege and power plotting over brandy to keep down People of Color. Bloomberg doesn't wake up in the morning, drink a cup of baby blood and think to himself "How can I be an evil bastard today?" That's not how this works, rather the environment itself conspires organically to push these kinds of interactions between individuals

Capitalism and racism cause social stratification. Social stratification causes alienation. Alienation causes people to lose sympathy. Loss of sympathy causes people to behave towards each other in cruel, anti-social ways.

Do you know that the "individual failures" of those crooked cops is literally bread into them by the job? First when you sign up for the police, they give you a personality test to see if you're "sensitive" or a "Hard ass" if you're more sensitive you don't get the job because they find that sensitive cops quit more often after a few months and they don't want to waste money. The job is extremely hard and depressing. So they hire only hardasses. What they don't take into account is that the experiences on the job hardens cops who DON'T quit, which turns the more extreme "hard asses" into terminators and virtual sociopaths. Then hit these terminators with a militaristic, macho, racist culture, and illegal quotas that they have to fill or they'll be reprimanded and put them in bad neighborhoods where people hate them, and see what they do.

Who's fault is it when they engage in the above behaviors? When they beat the crap out of innocent people, or overreact, or shoot 9 innocent bystanders because they're trying to take down 1 gunman (yes this happened in NYC recently). Certainly they are to blame but they aren't the only ones, the way we live pushes them and everyone else into these confrontations.

Like I've said before, what happens with Stop and Frisk is inevitable. It's math. It's not just a few bad apples or even a whole bunch of them, it's that the box the apples are in is full of mold spores.

The answer is to get rid of the box.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Certainly, but the point is that the things which cannot are unintelligible and incommunicable (at least not reliably) and thus are irrelevant to everyone but the person experiencing them.

Its relevant. This is what we're talking about. Everything is in reference to this. Feelings matter, trauma matters, fear matters, all of that sticky stuff that we can't articulate matter.

Particularly when control of language and discourse has been a method of rendering these things incommunicable. There are oppressions that can't be articulated because the words and discourses we need aren't there, and its intentionally so. For example, a friend of mine's half brother is part aboriginal and was able to get his tuition covered as a result of his status. She's bitter about it and called it exploitation. A friend of mine responded its exploitation, but good exploitation.

It didn't occur to us later that hey, its not exploitation at all. We use the language of the oppressive and we aren't equipped with the language necessary to communicate and articulate what we mean, and it was intentionally set up that way. My grandmother is cut off from her heritage because she was forced to speak only English. She can't communicate at all with anyone from a similar background, and she speaks racist rhetoric and can't understand past that.

We cannot prove nor that white people are especially incapable of understanding the experience of a person of color, when compared to any other race claiming they understand an experience that someone else went through.

Because we do not experience racism on any level, the racist system is a white supremist system. We can sympathize, but not empathize. PoC might experience racism differently, but they still experience it and can communicate more efficiently because of that.

But racism is something you are more educated on. You haven't experienced it the same way, and it's certainly impolite to do what you did, given his ethnic status, but that doesn't mean you were wrong in what you told him.

Its wrong because its just another white person dictating to a person of colour. I'm speaking on a level authority because this is what PoC have taught me, I have no experience to stand on. Its like when men police women on feminism, like a douche bag telling a friend of mine that its unfeminist of her to wear make up and heels. Those things aren't feminist, but fuck off, its not your place to tell a woman that because you really don't get it.

I can easily imagine why elevators are scary. Granted I don't think about it because they aren't scary TO ME because I'm a huge guy. What I can say is that I've been subject to unwanted sexual advances from other men in the past (due to my long hair) so it's easy to see why you would be uncomfortable in that situation.

Am I as afraid of elevators as you? No. Have I had the exact same experience, no. But to claim I can't understand is inappropriate.

Its not just elevators, men in that thread failed to instinctively see an elevator as a bad place, we had to educate them. Now that you've been told you might think about that whenever you see an elevator, but you're going on my feelings and experiences. Likewise I didn't think Obama can't afford to be aggressive with Romney in debates because then people would see him as an angry black man, now that someone pointed that out I can see it, but I would never have gotten there on my own. And even then, I didn't demand they qunatify that. No one demanded I demonstrate why elevators are scary on an empirical level. You just trust that I was raised to fear rrape and places where I'm vulnerable.

Having the exact same experience is not a requirement for understanding something if it was no one would understand anything because no one has exactly the same experience. As I've said, once you go down the path of unknowability you abandon all relevance to everyone but yourself.

It doesn't exactly have to be exact, although you have to respect that its never going to be exact. But we don't have ANY racist experience to relate to. The only racist experiences we have is in which we are the oppressive, and we're the ones that need to change. We can relate as white people who are trying to change and not be oppressive, but we can't relate to being repressed as racialized people. Specifically because we are not racialized, white is the norm and not something we really identify as.

Therapy is not the same situation as confrontation. No one would ask someone to prove their traumatic experience happened, because that isn't the goal of such interactions.

I'm not a therapist, and even outside that setting I have the same attitude. I don't ask for proof. Do you ask **** victims for proof if you're in a debate with them?

Discussions, arguments, and trials are different.



You're making alot of assumptions here and painting with a very broad brush.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't do much to prove that it's useful to claim that whites can't understand the position that people of color are in. It falls apart because of among other things it's unknowability.

Its useful to keep in mind because it keeps other people from viewing you as a stubborn asshole who thinks he gets things he really really does not. Even what we talk about, I don't really know if I understand racism very well on an intellectual level. Better than I used to, but I can improve. I'm never going to totally understand it, and that's not the point, nor is it necessary for me to be a decent person.

Even white people who are generally good at being understanding fuck up a lot. Like recently Jessica Valenti was talking about how Michelle Obama bragging about being a mother is a bad thing, because she's white and didn't get that there's stereotypes about black mothers that she as a white woman failed to grasp. She has the best of intentions but she still fucks up, and I don't think that women of colour who don't like her as a result are being too hard, its probably tiring to put up with that kind of thing all the time and why go to Valenti when there's plenty feminists and womanists of colour who get it better?

[AshleyO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZzlDXslGMk

Exhibit A of invisible racism in America.

It's not politically correct to call a black person the "N" word, but we sure can call them communists!

[Solumina]

Okay I wrote a big huge post using math as an example, I even made up a base eleven system but it all got really complicated and I don’t think it really got across what I was trying to say very well so I went with language instead, I hope it makes sense but I think some of my mind got absorbed into making up base eleven math and now it wants to make that a workable thing and figure out what would make a good representation of ten.

The more you are exposed to more and different languages the more easily you pick up additional language but when and how you are introduced to that language makes a huge difference. You have to be continually exposed to it from a very early age to be competent with it. I'm not talking about picking up a second language but any language. There aren't controlled experiments that deal with this because depriving someone of language throughout their childhood would be incredibly cruel and would fuck up their lives but there have been documented cases of children who were grew up without, or with very limited, human interaction. Some of them did learn to speak with a lot of help and guidance but their vocabulary was extremely stunted to the point where communication was possible but never became easy. On the other side of the spectrum if a child is introduced to a second language when they are young it makes it much easier for them to pick up additional languages when they are older. It doesn't mean that they will ever know those languages any better than someone who is learning it as their second language in adulthood, just that they will pick it up much more quickly and easily.

It is also really important to know that no matter how much time and energy you put into learning a language unless you are a native speaker you will never know and understand it as well as a native speaker. You can learn to be fluent and to communicate easily but there will be things beyond your understanding, most of them will be subtleties, little grammar quirks, obscure slang, or words that have the same definition but slightly different connotations.

I figured language would be a good metaphor since it isn't really a science, it isn't concrete but we do have some ways of both quantifying and qualifying a person's knowledge of it. Words mean different things to different people, there is so much emotion and so much of our experiences in the words we use, we will never really know exactly what someone else means, that's the nature of the beast, that doesn't stop it from being amazingly useful. Plus even with people speaking the same language that language can have many different dialects. I’m also not talking the language of oppression or anything like that I mean that PoC have a shared language, V speaks a very different dialect than Alan. Women have a shared language but again Saya and I speak different dialects.

Sometimes those dialectic differences prove to be very problematic, sometimes people do assume that since they share a language with someone that means more than it does and sometimes people think that because they share a language with someone that means they have nothing to learn from each other, that’s a huge problem but we are people, nothing we do is without problems, that is part of being human.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Versus

It does not show that society has agreed to minimize racism, it shows me that society has agreed to change how to enforce it. I have already told you that outlining a person's race is no longer the ideology that reinforces the social structure. It is by applying abstract liberalism, making justifications with naturalism, assuming cultural uniformity and inferiority, and marginalizations that currently accomplishes that. Overt discrimination isn't used anymore, and to use that ideology that reinforced the social structure before the civil rights movement as a basis for current racial acceptance in the direct face of everything that I have shown you is something I have already said that you do without any evidence.

And again, I ask you to tell me how an improvement over one facet of racism over time says anything about the total impact of racism currently.

An improvement in one part of a problem lessens the overall impact of a problem. Otherwise it wouldn't be an improvement, would it? If you can only see progress in all-or-nothing terms, then good luck Sisyphus.

I can't recall making any naturalistic arguments, assuming cultural uniformity or inferiority, nor have I attempted to relegate anyone to a lower social standing.

[AshleyO]

Hey did you guys know that it's against the law to fire people based on race, sex, gender, orientation, and religion? Did you guys know that?

Yo I wonder why so many PoC and queer folk and women get paid less or get fired more due to wearing the wrong work shoes or maybe because they don't follow that one simple rule that well... you know; no one else in the office has been fired for and hasn't observed it either.

Oh, but don't worry! Just to make a point, management will be super strict about that one rule for about a week or so after that PoC has been gone... you know, to prove that it's all fair business.

[Jonathan]

It's almost like AshleyO didn't see any post where I denounced selective enforcement. He can't just be a disingenuous troll, that is beyond the scope of his impeccable character.

[Solumina]

But it isn't just something that happens here and there, it happens on a fucking massive scale, it is part of the system, and it needs to be addresses system wide, not on an individual basis.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

An improvement in one part of a problem lessens the overall impact of a problem.

How much? Specifically, how much has the civil rights era laws against discrimination impacted racism today?

If you can only see progress in all-or-nothing terms, then good luck Sisyphus.

Actually, you specifically asked me that and I said it was an improvement. And it's a little odd that, in regard to that improvement's impact, I can show you evidence towards the current situation. But when you vaguely say "an improvement is an improvement," you are allowed to speak in all-or-nothing terms.

I can't recall making any naturalistic arguments, assuming cultural uniformity or inferiority, nor have I attempted to relegate anyone to a lower social standing.

I didn't accuse you of doing such, nor is that what I asked. Please reread the question or admit you are avoiding it.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Its relevant. This is what we're talking about. Everything is in reference to this. Feelings matter, trauma matters, fear matters, all of that sticky stuff that we can't articulate matter.

Yes, but they aren't useful when you're making a very important statement about reality. You can't use feelings, fear and trauma and other stuff we can't articulate as evidence in order to argue that an entire race of people are physically or virtually deficient.

Particularly when control of language and discourse has been a method of rendering these things incommunicable. There are oppressions that can't be articulated because the words and discourses we need aren't there, and its intentionally so. For example, a friend of mine's half brother is part aboriginal and was able to get his tuition covered as a result of his status. She's bitter about it and called it exploitation. A friend of mine responded its exploitation, but good exploitation.

It didn't occur to us later that hey, its not exploitation at all. We use the language of the oppressive and we aren't equipped with the language necessary to communicate and articulate what we mean, and it was intentionally set up that way. My grandmother is cut off from her heritage because she was forced to speak only English. She can't communicate at all with anyone from a similar background, and she speaks racist rhetoric and can't understand past that.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. I think I'd probably have to talk to a linguist to get some context on this. Can you elablorate/ I don't want to presume.

Because we do not experience racism on any level, the racist system is a white supremist system. We can sympathize, but not empathize. PoC might experience racism differently, but they still experience it and can communicate more efficiently because of that.

No, white people experience racism. Usually not directly, but we observe it's results. When I was mugged and beaten in the face with a pistol and called a N***** by my assailant, I was not experiencing that black people experience it, rather it was rebounding and being rebroadcast to me through a filter, but it was still racism.

Its wrong because its just another white person dictating to a person of colour. I'm speaking on a level authority because this is what PoC have taught me, I have no experience to stand on. Its like when men police women on feminism, like a douche bag telling a friend of mine that its unfeminist of her to wear make up and heels. Those things aren't feminist, but fuck off, its not your place to tell a woman that because you really don't get it.

I think you are making a serious categorization error here: you are fusing what is polite and appropriate with what is true. They aren't the same things.

If Versus says a sentence, and then I say the same sentence, it can be considered rude, or even racist depending upon that sentence's content, but it has no effect whatsoever on the truth value of the statement.

Its not just elevators, men in that thread failed to instinctively see an elevator as a bad place, we had to educate them. Now that you've been told you might think about that whenever you see an elevator, but you're going on my feelings and experiences. Likewise I didn't think Obama can't afford to be aggressive with Romney in debates because then people would see him as an angry black man, now that someone pointed that out I can see it, but I would never have gotten there on my own. And even then, I didn't demand they qunatify that. No one demanded I demonstrate why elevators are scary on an empirical level. You just trust that I was raised to fear rrape and places where I'm vulnerable.

There's other reasons why obama can't be aggressive in that debate. Mainly that he's largely a water-down version of Romney, and also he's so far ahead in his lead that all he has to do is not fuck up and he'll win.

Obama was aggressive in his debates with McCain (though I'm sure he had to worry about being seen as an angry black man then as well).

It would be ridiculous to demand that you demonstrate that elevators are scary on an empirical level (though you can, very easily) But no, I'm not going on your feeling and experiences, because I knew about the A+ situation before ever meeting you.

It doesn't exactly have to be exact, although you have to respect that its never going to be exact. But we don't have ANY racist experience to relate to. The only racist experiences we have is in which we are the oppressive, and we're the ones that need to change. We can relate as white people who are trying to change and not be oppressive, but we can't relate to being repressed as racialized people. Specifically because we are not racialized, white is the norm and not something we really identify as.

Umm...I have racist experience to relate to, both in direct observation of it, and being the target of it's blowback. Now that I have been victimized and assaulted by the NYPD, I can begin to extrapolate what some people who have been in similar situations might feel. Is it exact? certainly not, but no two experiences are alike, and you have no right to police my feelings anymore than I have a right to police yours and so we are at an unprovable empass. See the problem?

I'm not a therapist, and even outside that setting I have the same attitude. I don't ask for proof. Do you ask **** victims for proof if you're in a debate with them?

No, because that would be inappropriate, but when a **** victim charges someone with sexual assault the prosecution has to prove their case.

Its useful to keep in mind because it keeps other people from viewing you as a stubborn asshole who thinks he gets things he really really does not. Even what we talk about, I don't really know if I understand racism very well on an intellectual level. Better than I used to, but I can improve. I'm never going to totally understand it, and that's not the point, nor is it necessary for me to be a decent person.

Yes but it's not useful for making an objective determination about the abilities of another. That's the point. You're making a serious categorization error, as I said before.

Even white people who are generally good at being understanding fuck up a lot. Like recently Jessica Valenti was talking about how Michelle Obama bragging about being a mother is a bad thing, because she's white and didn't get that there's stereotypes about black mothers that she as a white woman failed to grasp. She has the best of intentions but she still fucks up, and I don't think that women of colour who don't like her as a result are being too hard, its probably tiring to put up with that kind of thing all the time and why go to Valenti when there's plenty feminists and womanists of colour who get it better?

The presence of errors does not prove that those errors are a result of an inherent inability to understand.

[Jonathan]

If outright stating certain practices are not acceptable and having penalties attached for non-compliance is not an attempt at addressing issues system-wide, then what you are asking for is impossible.

What can you do? Add more lines to a document nobody follows? Make penalties harsher? If things like the regulatory document I linked are no good, then I don't see how anything ever can be.

Everything sucks forever I guess.

[AshleyO]

Hey yo, guys...

Uuuhhh...

Not sure if any of you liberals have noticed, but um...

Shouldn't we be going after Gothicus? I mean he DID just admit that he's everything we're against.

No? Eh. Okay.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Hey yo, guys...

Uuuhhh...

Not sure if any of you liberals have noticed, but um...

Shouldn't we be going after Gothicus? I mean he DID just admit that he's everything we're against.

I want his chest-skin to make myself a pouch out-of!

[Jonathan]

Nah, it's more important that they make me feel sad inside. Keep trying dudes.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

If outright stating certain practices are not acceptable and having penalties attached for non-compliance is not an attempt at addressing issues system-wide, then what you are asking for is impossible.

What can you do? Add more lines to a document nobody follows? Make penalties harsher? If things like the regulatory document I linked are no good, then I don't see how anything ever can be.

Smash Capitalism and Imperialism. Replace it with a classless society that runs on a collectivist economy. Demolish borders. Outlaw private property.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Smash Capitalism and Imperialism. Replace it with a classless society that runs on a collectivist economy. Demolish borders. Outlaw private property.

Do we do that before or after we eat ourselves in pursuit of ideological purity?

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

It's almost like AshleyO didn't see any post where I denounced selective enforcement. He can't just be a disingenuous troll, that is beyond the scope of his impeccable character.

Ay yo fuck you mang! You know nothing of my character!

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Ay yo fuck you mang! You know nothing of my character!

Yeah, motherfucker rolled all 18s.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Do we do that before or after we eat ourselves in pursuit of ideological purity?

Before, it will be difficult to afterwards, on account of we've all been eaten.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Yeah, motherfucker rolled all 18s.

Aye, fuck you too, broheim!